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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 4:41:29 AM

LadyIce

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Hard limits should always be respected.
I would never play with someone that did not take them seriously.

(in reply to Trampler)

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 4:45:44 AM

soultoshare

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I am the sub who originally posted the hard limits as punishment thread on ask a Master.

By his refusal to accept my hard limit of no woman to woman contact, period, as a use of punishment, he has left me feeling betrayed and angry. That is exactly what I told him, I then received an e-mail telling me that it about HIS pleasure, HIS enjoyment. Now, I'm straight, he's bi, as is the other slave in the household he was plannig on moving me into. He PROMISED me that I would NEVER have to take part in the act of sexual service to any female. I have no problem whatsoever that he is bi, or that she is bi. The point is, he KNEW from the beginning about my hard limits, and accepted them. The mind fuck he's pulling by telling me that I will indeed violate my hard limit as punishment literally destroyed me, and the trust I had placed in him...if he's willing to make me do this, (yeah, I know he can't MAKE me do it, just roll with me here!), then how am i supposed to place my trust in him to protect me at all times? The fact is, I feel that i can no longer place my trust in him as it stood then.

For the record, EVERYONE pretty much reinforced my own opinion, both Masters and subs/slaves. By letting me put the issue out there, it enabled me to actually think with my head, not my emotions. To all of them, I give my sincere thanks.

michelle

(in reply to CDOM3)

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 4:47:47 AM

LadyIce

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Thanks for the post soultoshare, hard limits to me are the line that
should not be crossed.
There is a big difference, between hard limits and soft limits.

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Post #: 63

RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 4:50:32 AM

lateralist1

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I would hope people are intelligent enough to realize when someone is not playing with a full deck.
Really how many criminal psychologists and psychiatrists have got it wrong in the past?
You can't know when someone is mentally ill.
And what is mentally ill anyway?
There are very few seriously mentally ill people in society. Most of the people you would describe as 'not playing with a full deck' would probably be described by the mental health professionals as having a personality disorder. And therefore they would not be interested in them in the least.
Please do not confuse someone who acts very differently than you would in a given circumstance as mentally ill. We all to a certain extent behave in a way that has been instilled into us by past experiences. We all sometimes behave in a way which is seen by others as inappropriate it doesn't mean that we actually are being inappropriate or mentally unstable. It just means that one set of learned behaviours are different than another. It takes time to learn what anothers set of learned behaviours are. And we have to be damn sure that we are justified in changing them before we attempt to. Just because we don't like them is no real justification for changing them in my opinion. However if together a Dom/me and sub decide that a certain behaviour is getting in the way of the development of the relationship behavioural therapy is fairly easy. However as I keep saying the jails are full of people who don't want to change their learned behaviour patterns. So they don't.

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 6:15:54 AM

SirDominic

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soul, I didn't mention it in your other thread; the thing that really bothered me about your former master was not only that he felt hard limits were a proper punishment. It bothered me even more what his idea of punishment should be, apparently to shame and degrade his slave. That is not what punishment is for, if you are interested in building up your slave. My goal is to help my slave be the best person she is capable of being. When she deserves punishment, which is not often, I would never do anything that would break her down, make her feel ashamed of herself; it is completely contrary to the goals of our relationship.

Trampler, this goes directly to what you said. Punishment should never damage the soul of your slave. Punishment should be used as a corrective measure, given without anger or any ill intent.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 7:42:44 AM

jauntyone

Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
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quote:

melissa,
I understand your thought process here...but really....would you allow someone to chop your leg off "cause he wants to?" *yes, this is terribly extreme..but it's only to make a point*

I would be more inclined to say I place "few" limits on myself and I don't shy away from a SSC or RACK challenge. Some people are strange enough to want to do things that are waaayyy beyond even our comprehension in the "vein of control".

Greetings

If you understood the thought process then you would not need to ask such a horrid question. I leave it to you to decide whether or not I would allow my leg to be removed.

I wish you well

melissa

(in reply to earthycouple)

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 8:11:35 AM

leakylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

I would hope people are intelligent enough to realize when someone is not playing with a full deck.
Really how many criminal psychologists and psychiatrists have got it wrong in the past?
You can't know when someone is mentally ill.
And what is mentally ill anyway?
There are very few seriously mentally ill people in society. Most of the people you would describe as 'not playing with a full deck' would probably be described by the mental health professionals as having a personality disorder. And therefore they would not be interested in them in the least.
Please do not confuse someone who acts very differently than you would in a given circumstance as mentally ill. We all to a certain extent behave in a way that has been instilled into us by past experiences. We all sometimes behave in a way which is seen by others as inappropriate it doesn't mean that we actually are being inappropriate or mentally unstable. It just means that one set of learned behaviours are different than another. It takes time to learn what anothers set of learned behaviours are. And we have to be damn sure that we are justified in changing them before we attempt to. Just because we don't like them is no real justification for changing them in my opinion. However if together a Dom/me and sub decide that a certain behaviour is getting in the way of the development of the relationship behavioural therapy is fairly easy. However as I keep saying the jails are full of people who don't want to change their learned behaviour patterns. So they don't.

thank you L.

why is it that on threads like this everyone has to go to the extremes? so now we are going from mentally unstable people that want to dismember you to the criminally veined? is it not possible that some people just dont have character traits that we desire?

the lack of compassion and empathy do not equate to a cruel or abusive person. it generally is going to be leaning towards an owner that is more self motivated, but some slaves want that. an owner that pulls thier property off of needed medication because he thinks his way is right is still not cruel and abusive. just because others may not agree with his methods. they are his methods. they are agreed upon and participated in by two consenting adults.

does that make them wrong? NO. it doesnt make them right for the majority, but it is right for them. we are turning control of our lives over to another individual. if we cant be sure that we, as slaves, are going to get what we want and need. then we ought not be getting into the situation in the first place. if you cant be sure of yourself, how are you going to be sure of anyone else?

lee

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 8:27:39 AM

Missokyst

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Fabulously stated. For me hard limits are the only limits I have. I reached them by knowing myself and what I find acceptable, or not. I made them limits based on prior reactions when someone pushed that envelope. Are these limits I place on myself? HECK yes! Because I know who I am.
Anyone who doesn't understand that, or care, is either selfish or and abuser on a power trip.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

An attitude of breaking limits is indicative of an abusive person.

It is a manifestation of narcissism, with no awareness beyond one's own selfish/greedy desires.

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 8:36:01 AM

Missokyst

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I do think that for some people limits change over time. BUT, perhaps that is because many people say "no way" to a lot of things along the way.. and then things change. I have done a lot of stuff over the years and I don't believe I ever considered one of them a limit. Play happens, life happens, things occur along the way. Things I have done I never thought I would try, yet I did them because they happened along. They were not limits for ME, but things that if I were another sort of person, I might have considered them a limit if discussing them with someone. Most people would view these as limits, or soft limits. For me, all by my very few hard limits are just things that I am open to try IF the situation comes up. Hard limits though.. I do not cross those for anyone. I think that for some of us, hard limits will not change. Maybe because we know ourselves that well.
Everything else is negotiable.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadomasokisti

Limits do evolve and change over time. I look at some hard limits as boundaries that can be poked carefully and even pushed, and if the poking and pushing is gives positive results I would discuss with the sub about pushing further and even braking those boundaries.

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 8:49:23 AM

imthatacheyouhav

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Consider for a moment you have hard limits you didnt even know about....
This happened to me fairly recently....my 1st sexual encounter with my Master was very vanilla, missionary postion and all...and that was really fine with me...it was my speed at that moment. It was still very intense for me, however something odd happened... He asked me at one point to get on top of him straddleing His face, facing away from Him...i remember being just frozen at that request....and asking Him...what?...what did You just say?....and then i just burst into tears....LOL...i'm sure He was thinking... *well i guess thats a no*......so odviously i had an issue with that ...but i didnt even know i had an issue ....if i'm making any sense....

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*if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything*
**collared July 22 2007 by LordKen**

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 8:58:10 AM

lateralist1

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Thankyou for bringing up the question of illness and medication leakylee. Lots of people in our lifestyle have been diagnosed with one type of mental/emotional/physical illness or another. By that I mean illnesses that some people think have a route in the emotional but exhibit either physical or mental health symptoms. At one time or another I have diagnosed myself with mild bi-polar, autism, sad, depression etc.
The truth is that I was and still am sometimes totally miserable. If you can't get what you need out of life then the tendency is to escape from it. People escape in various ways. Drugs, drink, alcohol, kinky sex, extreme excercise, dangerous sports and yes BDSM etc. Modern society gives very few people what they need to live a happy life.
And after the basic necessities of life are catered for the most important thing is the right relationships and the maturity to handle them when we find them.

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 10:24:31 AM

This1s4you

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Well we HAVE read quite a bit here. We did NOT throw out any "truisms" but simply said how WE FEEL about things. What is good for us will never be good for others (or some others). As for your proposition about leg chopping? LOL, what an extreme example, if we did want that we would be um.. certifiable and we are far from that. between the two of us we have many decades of experience and so would never suggest that sort of thing. We never presumed to speak for anyone other than ourselves and how we view things

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

"Boy I guess we are very different. For us being Master/Mistress means that we look for "slaves" and as such while we will decide what is good for them if we allow them to choose and if they don't have faith in our good intentions then they are the ones in control and that is not what slavery is about, is it?"

First I suggest you change "us" and "we" to "me" and "I". You can not presume to speak for everyone.
Second...so if some self proclaimed "master" feels it is in the best interest of his slave to chop his leg off then it's ok because "master knows all?" Maybe his good intention is to teach the slave better balance on one leg! Makes good sense to me...sheesh.
Third how can crossing a limit...a hard limit of any kind be a good intention? If my slave proclaims a hard limit of "bisexual" activity and this is something that disturbs him on a deep level how can subjecting him to that be good?
Fourth I suggest reading more threads and "listening" more before you throw our your "truisms" and "absolutes"

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 10:27:05 AM

This1s4you

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Yes indeed, that is true. The slave's acceptance of us as their Master/Mistress is their choice and should they not choose us then there is no relationship... but after they make that first choice then they have no further choices to make. So they had better be sure and know that we are exactly what we say we are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sadomasokisti

quote:

ORIGINAL: This1s4you

Boy I guess we are very different. For us being Master/Mistress means that we look for "slaves" and as such while we will decide what is good for them if we allow them to choose and if they don't have faith in our good intentions then they are the ones in control and that is not what slavery is about, is it?

How about the slave who decides to be your slave... I mean isn't that slave then in control of your relationship then? It the slaves decision on his or her part at least.

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 10:47:00 AM

vield

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It is important that everyone involved in a relationship honestly negotiates their limits hard and soft and their capabilities.

It does often happen that one partner is not clear about the full scope of another's hard limits. It is also possible that in a scene something which was very positive at another time with other partners may become a limit with this partner. That is where safe words and signals can be very important.

However anyone who even dreams of inflicting anything upon anyone that they know violates a hard limit the person has is not a dominant, they are an abuser. Consensuality is the difference between BD/SM and sexual abuse. Sexual abuse is illegal in this country. Here in my state the law designates different degrees of sexual assault. In my opinion any degree of sexual assault is rape.

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vield

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 10:49:30 AM

goodandplenty

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Well I see pushing past hard limits, like trying to get someone to go on a scary ride for the first time. Seems simple yet complex at the same time. Will they have the best time of their life or hate me forever? Dominations fuel is having others do things to please you. Submissions need is more complex, are they shy want to be lead by someone sepremely confidant and masterful.? all the way to someone trying to come to grips with childhood abuse. Of all the deal breakers I have knoweldge of the dominant was out of control. So I would say learn all there is to know of your submissive,ask am I helping them or not, am I ready for what may come out emotionaly and physically? I mostly delt with accepting anal and public display in this realm, what you want is far deeper waters. Suicide and murder have resulted from pushing those limits.

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 11:00:11 AM

amaidiamond

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Masque66

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

What on earth makes you think that all limits are simply fears?

Nothing at all, that was an example. I didn't mean to imply that all of a slaves limits were based in fear. But I imagine they're all based on some form of emotional difficulty.

Mine are centered around sense of self and things i could not do without causing myself serious harm, eg torturing an animal or child

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 11:09:55 AM

gypsygrl

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I don't have a lot of 'hard limits' but they're not something I even discuss, nor is it necessary to discuss those kinds of things given the level of play I've been doing lately. The reason I don't talk about things like that is I've never met a D-type who could refrain from poking around in sensitive areas after being told they were sensitive areas. Alerting someone to potential trouble is like giving them an instruction manual. I figure, there's no point in me showing them where they need to go if they want to see me come undone. (I'm not saying all Dominants don't respect negotiations but that the majority of the one's I've met seem to be constantly looking for buttons to push.)

If I was in a situation where I was considering a committed relationship with a D/s bent, I'd oviously want to discuss those issues but only with the understanding that if the D wanted to, he'd explore them, accepting the consequences of his actions (including paying for necessary medical and psychiatric care).

Basically, my approach now is that if I can discuss it, I can deal with it. If there's been no discussion, its not on the list of things I'm willing to do.

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“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 11:19:56 AM

Masque66

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I would assume before entering a relationship with a sub that hard limits would be discussed ahead of time. I do think hard limits can be changed, but I think the desire for that change has to come first from the sub. If you've met a sub and their hard limits do not match what you want from them, why get involved in the relationship in the first place? It's horribly dishonest to claim it doesn't bother you and then turn around and try to run her headlong into it.

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 11:34:32 AM

soultoshare

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Well, here's a bit of an update for all.....according to an e-mail I got from him in response to mine, it was not his intention to use the hard limit as punishment, rather it was a mind fuck thing. So i have been sitting here freaking out about this whole thing for the last few days just for his amusement???? Head games are one thing, but i've literally not eaten or slept while this has been zooming thru my mind. BASTARD!!!!

He's not even in the area, why he chose now to run me through this set of hoops is beyond me. His view is that i embarassed him by voicing my thoughts about his original e-mail, which is something he has told me to do from the start!!!!!!! That i refuted him as my owner and Master......I give up.....now I'm really pissed......little slave is gone, type A is here.....I "spoke" to him with nothing but the utmost respect, and got nothing but anger in return. But what the hell.....life goes on, it's one more lesson in the life learned.

Sorry for the hijack, probably should have added this to the original post in ask a Master.....

m

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RE: Psychology and hard limits - 5/25/2007 11:38:54 AM

Viridana

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Soultoshare,

It sounds like he's the type of person you really shouldn't waste your time even thinking about. If I were you I'd stop communicating with him and move on.

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