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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 1:55:20 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Religion is typically based on the idea that people just have to "accept" (assume) things that aren't observed (and find their basis in fairy tales, though I section this off since you don't have to acknowledge the Bible 'n such as a fairy tale to follow this argument).  This idealogy is not only not scientific, it's anti-scientific.



Sorry CL, i think you're forgetting quantum mechanics.......we can't directly observe the realm of the very-very-small.......instead we have to change our expectation of how well we can know the universe. This is similar, although not identical, to the phenomenon of faith.......and very very scientific.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:00:51 PM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		I personally think faith and blind following is derived from fear. Fear of what will happen if they stop believing or question that belief. Especially when it is drilled into most people from a young age.

I think that higher education teaches you to question alot of things, push the envelope and strive to make more sense out of the world. When going to college you generally leave that safe nest you grew up in and all that it stood for. To begin to question many of the ideals that you took for granted in that safe nest is natural. Your exposure to all things very different is vast in many cases. It is eye opening. You begin to realize that there really is a big world outside the small secular world you grew up in. To also question a religous faith that you grew up with would be fairly natural I would guess.


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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:07:31 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Religion is typically based on the idea that people just have to "accept" (assume) things that aren't observed (and find their basis in fairy tales, though I section this off since you don't have to acknowledge the Bible 'n such as a fairy tale to follow this argument).  This idealogy is not only not scientific, it's anti-scientific.



Sorry CL, i think you're forgetting quantum mechanics.......we can't directly observe the realm of the very-very-small.......instead we have to change our expectation of how well we can know the universe. This is similar, although not identical, to the phenomenon of faith.......and very very scientific.



Ack, afraid I'd have to disagree. =/

We can't directly observe it- so we don't assume things.  We look around, attempting to observe effects, derive models, and then test them.  This isn't faith.

Faith is assuming you already know something.  It's believing in something blindly as opposed to establishing hypothetical models and checking for their validity in physical experiment.  It's saying, "There is a God who loves me", and trying to force observation into that.  This is contrary to scientific principle.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:12:32 PM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		Philisophy, there are two opposing and mutually exclusive uses for the word FAITH. One is a personal feeling of certainty, either without proof or contrary to evidence (blind faith). The other is a more objective certainty based on observation, experimentation, reproducable results etc. (the scientific method).

These are very different meanings.

And while we cannot directly observe the quantum world or even the microscopic newtonian world we can do so through a variety of instruments or through indirect observation and prediction. That's not the same as accepting a fiction as explanation for a mystery simply on a whim.

Z.


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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:14:18 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		.....but to most people faith is not a one-time decision. It is a continual process, with experience directly affecting the strength of that faith. This seems to me to be fundamentally no different to any scientific paradigm.....which must stand or fall as new evidence/experience becomes available.

As for myself, i am probably best described as a humanist. This means, at least to me, that i have faith in the possibilities of humanity in general and humans specifically. Often things test that faith....the news for one......but there are occasions when a glimpse of something else restores my faith.

There seems to me to be no necessary conflict with believing as i do, and a scientific approach to investigating reality.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:15:19 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		People forget that The Bible was written by man not by God.
And, most of it's the story of the Jews not the Christians.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 5/25/2007 2:28:41 PM >

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:17:28 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		......i accept a lot of your post Zensee, but differ in one regard only. i don't see that religious faith is necessarily held 'on a whim'. The writings of John Donne for instance point to it being a hard choice, not a whimsical one. 

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:34:13 PM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		Actually Philosophy, I'd suggest that the two variants of faith are deliniated by those for whom it IS a one time decision and those who are open to real revisions of their beliefs. People locked into a blind faith position may appear to modify their beliefs but are simply building more sophisticated rationalisations. Also they assume their faith to be universally true and applicable to everyone.

What you are describing as your personal system is scientific in nature. Its results apply only to your own life though and while I might adopt your practices (experiments) and have similar results, I cannot know your experience nor can have guaranteed success. Blind faith, on the other hand, promises equivalent results for all, simply for believing (or not believing for that matter).

By "whim" I mean as a matter of arbitrary choice or as a result of a social environemnt (having religeous parents), not whimsical or inconsequential.


Z.

< Message edited by Zensee -- 5/25/2007 2:36:11 PM >

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:34:33 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Just, to say this before anything else.. I know you're a smart guy and such, and I'm just debating the point.

I'm always hesitant to discuss faith with someone who has it.  People can tend to rely on it as a matter of who they are, their motivations.   And, well, even a purely good-natured debate about it, should it cause one to question their faith, may bring about ill feelings.  This is something that causes me to perfer avoiding the subject, should it make one uncomfortable.  So, just to say, if you don't care to discuss this, it'd be okay.
I used to be hardcore Catholic.  Losing my faith hurt a lot.  Sometimes, I wonder if I would've just been happier believing it, even if I no longer find it to be true.

If you chose to believe in something that is outside of scientific principle- if you chose to allow it to motivate you, to give you hope- and if this does not interfere with others or scientifically-found principles- something that contributes- then I won't fault you for it.

Religion that conflicts with science is something I detest.  Religion that operates away from science.. well, I think it's silly- such as Wiccanism and such- but, hey, I play WarCraft III a couple times a week, and that's pretty silly.  How can you argue with something that doesn't hurt anyone but makes them happy?

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:36:24 PM   
KeirasSecret


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quote:

It seems to me that the capability to have faith requires an ability to imagine not having faith, in other words it is a choice based on an internal dialogue regarding the nature of reality. As far as i am aware only humans have that ability, ergo only humans can have faith.


I think I might understand what you are saying.

Because it is a personal choice to accept faith, it would have to be a personal choice to reject the idea. Is that it?

If so, then yes, I would have to agree, I misstated that.

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It apears to me, the practice of "an eye for an eye" has finally taken it's toll; the majority are now walking around blind.

Bitching; whining in a louder voice.

If the truth hurts, change it!

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:43:58 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		I would like to note that religion, having been of paramount importance in classical perception, has drawn many thinkers to it.  A lot of work's been done, contributing much art to faith and the "reasoning" behind it.  The art is flawed- it's consistently failed to consider that the base assumptions may not be accurate.  However, great art, even possessing a flaw, can be seen as beautiful.

To some, it may seem like an atrocity to disregard faith and religion- the sheer amount of thought and art that's gone into it.  The beauty of the vision in the art.  I would tend to agree that it is a shame so many great things must be lost from common consideration to mythology, that such things will hardly be considered, despite such achieved glory and depth.

Perhaps it will stand as a lesson to base art and idealogy in things that do not make assumptions, that are more open.  But, in the end, one concerned with such must contend with the fact that any further contribution to a fallen art will, itself, be lost.

Perhaps the myth might be kept alive as a grand fiction.  Perhaps more will join priesthoods, honestly believing it, wear their robes, do their cerimonies, and continue to be actors in one of the greatest plays ever written.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:46:42 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse (edited a bit)
I think that higher education teaches you to question alot of things, push the envelope and strive to make more sense out of the world. When going to college you generally leave that safe nest you grew up in and all that it stood for. To begin to question many of the ideals that you took for granted in that safe nest is natural. Your exposure to all things very different is vast in many cases. It is eye opening. You begin to realize that there really is a big world outside the small secular world you grew up in. To also question a religous faith that you grew up with would be fairly natural I would guess.


A very reasonable post but the question arises why after say100 years of universal education , in developed western nations at least, religious feelings and viewpoints have not withered away ?

For 400/500 years a highly educated elite has existed many of whom were devout believers.
Darwin, Newton as two prime examples.
Why is that then ?

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:47:12 PM   
Michael72801


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Status: offline 		As Bernie wrote and Elton sang:

"It's party time for the guys in the tower of Babel,
Sodom and Gomorrah,
Cain meet Abel.
Have a ball y'all!"

I have no faith in the old or new testaments. Why? It's propaganda written by patriarchs with an agenda.

Were the old testament even somewhat true, I can't get past where Cain and Abel found their wives.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:52:38 PM   
empresschaos


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Status: offline 		You speak of your "faith" being tested, Philosophy. Each day may be a series of experiments, but all that is proven is that you still have faith, not that it is grounded.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:53:20 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael72801

Were the old testament even somewhat true, I can't get past where Cain and Abel found their wives.


Isn't it assumed that their wives were their sisters?  Or something like that?

..you know, if I had a sister right now, I'd so walk up to her, hug her, and whipser into her ear in a seductive voice, "Let's get Biblical.."

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:56:50 PM   
Michael72801


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Status: offline 		Most religions are inherently derived from the human need for an existance after death. Read Poe's Conqueror Worm. I say "from dust to dust."

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 2:57:47 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord (edited a lot)
Later, when you consider the nature of reality, you find that science and religion conflict.  Many, many times, religion's adapted, trying to make these conflicts go away by yielding its own nature- trying to evolve to avoid people realizing it's untrue.  But, in the end, it conflicts with things that have been found scientifically, and is thus anti-scientific.


This paragraph is simply not true. Unless you take the Bible as being literally true.

Just to point out how easy it is to misinterpret scientific truth the definition of a day , in the bit of your post I edited out , is inaccurate.he he he he, Oh yes it is !

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/25/2007 3:08:53 PM >

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 3:00:49 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		....agreed mostly, however my personal faith only has to be grounded in my personal experience to be relevant to me.


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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 3:06:10 PM   
Michael72801


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Status: offline 		My faith lies in sound scientific processes, NOT in anecdotal literature. However, I don't condescend those who have faith in other matters. I would hope that those with faith in the supernatural would give me the same respect. Usually, they, and especially Christians and Moslems, do NOT extend that same respect.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 3:16:07 PM   
Michael72801


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Status: offline 		Any repartee concerning religious faith is futile, if not moot, in my opinion. You can NOT change a person's mind if they are devoutly faithful to a dogma. That does NOT mean that the discussion is worthless. There may be others listening that have yet decided about their faith. Forget it. I had best just exit this thread and leave well enough alone.

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