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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 8:50:52 PM   
curiousexplorer


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Status: offline 		"What's your evidence for this statement? "

The level of knowledge humanity had acheived before the christian dark ages, the level it sank to during this time, and the recovery since that time. And I thought I was being generous with 500 years.

"Religion = fear and ignorance.
What do you purpose I am afraid of that having faith in religion would change for me? "

Religions are formed from fear and ignorance. At one time people were scared of the thunder, so they invented thunder gods they could pray to and make sacrifices for so the thunder wouldn't hurt them. Their are gods to rpotect the house, and other gods to protect the entire village. The fear is the reason for the gods, the ignorance is thinking they'll stop what you fear. The local war god is often more than a match for the protection gods, as are the natural disaster gods.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 8:54:05 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

"What's your evidence for this statement? "

The level of knowledge humanity had acheived before the christian dark ages, the level it sank to during this time, and the recovery since that time. And I thought I was being generous with 500 years.


I'd find this answer more compelling had it included some examples of what was lost and how that has retarded our progress today.

Also wondering what was specifically Christian about the dark ages. After all, the Roman Empire that they replaced had become Christian by that point, so it's not as if Christianity was suddenly a new factor in the equation.

Also, if Christianity was the limiting factor, there should have been advances galore in the non-Christain parts of the world. Did that happen?

Still not clear on how we're 500 years behind today because of Christianity.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 5/25/2007 8:59:51 PM >

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 9:14:16 PM   
curiousexplorer


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Status: offline 		dcnovice,
While the parts are interesting, they are not as informative as the whole. There are many examples in medicine. Basic anatomy was kept back hundreds of years because of christian superstitions. But don't worry, it's not just christianity, religion is never good for knowledge.

And we can attach christianity to many things, some even try to attach todays social advances to selected bible words despite the christian history. But the good things people accomplish in spite of religion can't really be attributed to that religion.

"I'd find this answer more compelling had it included some examples of what was lost and how that has retarded our progress today. "

The examples are too many to mention. Also it's hard to keep up with the editing.

"Also wondering what was specifically Christian about the dark ages. After all, the Roman Empire that they replaced had become Christian by that point, so it's not as if Christianity was suddenly a new factor in the equation.
Also, if Christianity was the limiting factor"

Editing far too quickly. I know christianity is not the only religion in the world. Also I'm more interested in what christianity actively supressed than what wasn't done in other cultures.

"Still not clear on how we're 500 years behind today because of Christianity."

And it's doubtful you ever will. The first thing you would have to do is not get excited about christianity and defending it. Next you would have to become a student of history. Challenge yourself, not me.
It's scary to think where we might have been if we had never had to overcome religion every step of the way?

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 9:19:43 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Also I'm more interested in what christianity actively supressed than what wasn't done in other cultures.


But other cultures are crucial to this discussion. They're like the controls in an experiment. If they didn't advance significantly more than Christian cultures did, it's hard to buy your hypothesis that Christianity was the key factor.

quote:

Next you would have to become a student of history.


I was a history major way back when. That's why I'm skeptical of historical generalizations, particularly when they're not accompanied by much evidence.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 10:10:19 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Later, when you consider the nature of reality, you find that science and religion conflict. 


But aren't some scientists religious? Francis Collins comes to mind.


Yeah.  It's possible to study science while being religious.  You just have to avoid the clash between the two.  There's a lot of non-overlapping area to explore.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/25/2007 10:13:18 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Later, when you consider the nature of reality, you find that science and religion conflict. 


But aren't some scientists religious? Francis Collins comes to mind.


Yeah.  It's possible to study science while being religious.  You just have to avoid the clash between the two.  There's a lot of non-overlapping area to explore.


Well, if it's possible to be both scientitific and religious, doesn't your generalization that science and religion conflict need to be qualified?

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 12:53:18 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		I claim that one day does not equal one revolution of the Earth but in fact slightly more than one revolution.
quote:

CuriousLord
Alright.. this is sort of sad..
A:  None of this makes your point.
B:  This isn't even accurate.. because..

1.  A day is the amount of time it takes for the Earth to rotate once.
2.  A year is the amount of time it takes for the Earth to travel around the sun once.

3.  The Earth rotates about 365.2(4) times per year.
i.  Therefore, by definition, there are about 365 days in a year.
ii.  Since you can't really make ~0.2(4) days as part of a year, since that'll mean New Years will fall at different times each year from the last, people summed it up for every four years (so 4 * ~0.2(4) ~ 0.9(6)), effectively adding the extra parts of a day to every fourth year, making that year one day longer.
iii.  This system isn't perfect.  Somewhere down the road, there's going to have to be a 5-year break between leap years, or other fix.


The reasoning in point 3 onwards shows up the error in definition given in point 1
I got my directions wrong, As viewed looking down on the North Pole the rotations Earth around its axis and Earth around the Sun are anti clockwise. Doesnt affect the conclusion one bit.

The other bit about  Science invalidating religious "truths" as revealed in the Bible I answered by a one liner, <only if you take the Bible to be literally true>
Since the Bible is allegorical and metaphorical, with some alleged historical facts thrown in, and since it discusses things that are outside the remit of Science then I think Science does not, logically speaking, invalidate the Biblical message.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 2:24:30 AM   
ennaozzie


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I believe that religion and politics should be left out of education all together, yes knowledge of what religion is about and what politics is about should be taught and if you want to take more elective subjects when in higher education then do it,
 
But I believe the education system is struggling enough teaching the basic subjects as it is without putting extra subjects in just to be politically correct.
 
Things like religion or politics basic knowledge should be taught in history which I am told is a core subject so they at least know country and world history and what makes the world go around.
 
Personally I do have my own beliefs, and i do have belief's that are religious, but I have also heard that schools refuse to teach evolution in schools this is science that has been investigated and proved, in a lot of areas and new things come to light all the time, but they want this teaching stopped as it goes against some of what the bible says or teaches.
 
I just want my kids to have an education, have their own thoughts and decide themselves what they want to believe or not believe and have a thinking brain to think for them self and not follow a flock unless they think they are right or they agree with them, and I would support them in what ever they endeavor.
 
So many do not think.   
 
beanie

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 3:02:39 AM   
kentaro1980


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quote:


I claim that one day does not equal one revolution of the Earth but in fact slightly more than one revolution.
The reasoning in point 3 onwards shows up the error in definition given in point 1
( 1.  A day is the amount of time it takes for the Earth to rotate once. )


Even if that slightly more would be a scant 1 second, or even half a second, over the course of 1 year that would sum up to 3 minutes and in 10 years 30 minutes...in 50 years 2.5 hours. Furthermore, the 24 hour day is created after the sun and not after a more obscure measurement (see: Fahrenheit scale).


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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 3:20:14 AM   
curiousexplorer


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Status: offline 		"But other cultures are crucial to this discussion. They're like the controls in an experiment."

Actually they are not. First of all they have religions of their own, and even without that they would have to be at the same level with the same controls.

"If they didn't advance significantly more than Christian cultures did, it's hard to buy your hypothesis that Christianity was the key factor. "

Your assuming they all were at the same level and progressed evenly under the similar circumstances? And some cultures did move along, but encountered problems of their own, including christianity sometimes. The point is not what other cultures didn't do, but what christianity itself stopped, or slowed down. And we haven't overcome the christianity hurdle yet, as shown by the I.D. joke gone mad.

"I was a history major way back when. That's why I'm skeptical of historical generalizations, particularly when they're not accompanied by much evidence."

Really? It seemed like christianity was the problem? Don't worry, knowledge has always had to overcome religion, that is cross cultural. Christianity was just well placed to be a big problem, and determined to do it well.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 4:06:42 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Christianity alone has taken us at least 500 years behind were we could be, socially and technologically.


What's your evidence for this statement?


CuriousExplorer gave an answer on this -but only a partial answer, without detailing the earlier desecration.

The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans et al had the most amazing technologies. They were also literate, and recorded a lot of information about their achievements. To cut a long story short and to isolate the one single incidence which did the greatest damage in retarding mankind; a great library was built at Alexandria - one of many in the ancient world, but by all accounts the greatest.

Along with the other such lesser libraries, the great library at Alexandria was destroyed and burnt to the ground, along with thousands, maybe millions of texts, detailing amongst them such knowledge as that the earth is round and orbits the sun and even the likes of steam engines. What was undoubtedly in the library we know from discoveries of surviving texts - what else was in the library we can only imagine.

The Christians destroyed these libraries for the reason that being associated with pagan deities and culture, they had to be destroyed along with every other element of the ancient religions - being clearly inspired by the devil to lead man astray. That much of what the ancients had learned also showed the Biblical account to be utterly incompatible with reality was an added bonus. Notably though, the Christians did take to some ancient philosophies which agreed with the Bible or could at least be inferred from the Bible.

Given that the libraries et al were destroyed in the first centuries AD, and that it took us until the 17th century to begin to find out for ourselves all the knowledge possessed by the ancients, I feel that 500 years as a posited period of retardation is very generous indeed. I would put it at closer to 2000 years - to include not only the period from the destruction to the 17th century but to also take into account the loss of knowledge gained in the centuries prior to the destruction.

It is this kind of thing which tells me that the Church is a criminal organisation, and has been since its institution as imperial religion in the Roman empire, not only akin to the German Nazi party and Stalinist regime which it inspired, but the originator of thought control. The countless thousands, maybe millions, who have suffered and died in their efforts to control thought, the wanton destruction of so many achievements and the outright theft of everything from land to culture which it has perpetrated in its history, make it public enemy number one. Forget Osama Bin Laden - he's done nothing by comparison - and is, paradoxically, of the religion which maintained much of the ancient knowledge in the centuries following the Christian's efforts to destroy it.

E

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 4:35:02 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kentaro1980
quote:


I claim that one day does not equal one revolution of the Earth but in fact slightly more than one revolution.
The reasoning in point 3 onwards shows up the error in definition given in point 1
( 1.  A day is the amount of time it takes for the Earth to rotate once. )

Even if that slightly more would be a scant 1 second, or even half a second, over the course of 1 year that would sum up to 3 minutes and in 10 years 30 minutes...in 50 years 2.5 hours. Furthermore, the 24 hour day is created after the sun and not after a more obscure measurement (see: Fahrenheit scale).


Not sure which side you have come down on but the difference is approximately 1 minute per day. leading to a slippage of approx 1 day every 4 years.That will require a correction over hundreds of years.
These "days" even have different names. Sidereal is one.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 4:35:39 AM   
nightphoenix


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Status: offline 		Just pointing out.  It wasn't Christianity that 'set us back 500 years'...it was people acting claiming they were doing so in the name of Christianity.

Wide, massive difference.  Something like how people attribute the Fred Phelps cult as being Christian when there's nothing Christian about them.

True Christianity was one of the casualties during the Dark Ages just as much as everything else was.

< Message edited by nightphoenix -- 5/26/2007 4:40:10 AM >

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 4:45:03 AM   
nightphoenix


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Status: offline 		As far as the 6 day thing that's been brought up...something interesting to think about...if you go back to the more original texts (the King James people did try, but they got a lot wrong), if you read Genesis chapter 1 literally -  The creation event mentioned in the first verse, is not the same event as the rest of the chapter describing the creation.  Without having the time to get into too much detail, it can be understood from the Bible that God created the earth trillions of years ago, calamity befell causing the Earth to be wasteland, covered in water, then the rest of the chapter is God's recreating the Earth, taking 6 days to make the earth functional again.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 4:50:22 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

Just pointing out.  It wasn't Christianity that 'set us back 500 years'...it was people acting claiming they were doing so in the name of Christianity.

Wide, massive difference.  Something like how people attribute the Fred Phelps cult as being Christian when there's nothing Christian about them.


I have to strongly disagree nightphoenix.

Whether we believe the desecration and murder to have been ordered by the Church, or hold it to be the actions of a rabid minority acting without authority, it is irrelevant. Either way, the source of the crime is the same. We must also remember that in the times under discussion, Christians were just as vicious as anyone else and they were in a battle for power with the old ways.

Fred Phelps and other fundamentalist types of today, and perhaps also the fanatics of the 15th-17th century in Europe would have fitted in well in those times, when it was "believe what I believe, or I will save your soul with this sword".

Cuddly, fluffy Christians such as we have nowadays, tolerant mainstream Christianity such as we have nowadays, are in no way similar to those of past times. And this also indicates a great deal about the religion and its source - that one can read into it and take from it and become of it, almost anything - a devil or an angel. This must then lead us to conclude that the whole is inconsistent and therefore flawed and therefore only of interest as a historicised mythology or mythologised history.

We must also remember that what comprises the Bible is no accident and neither is it some divinely ordained collection of scripts. The Bible was formed out of an editing process from hundreds of scripts, by a convention of bishops drawn from one particular creed within a Christianity made up of many sects and creeds, to establish their own creed as paramount. That these Christians also slaughtered and destroyed their own Christian rivals tell us much about them, and their movement and the source which inspired them.

What really annoys me though, is that we had a perfectly good and far more advanced religion than the simple minded claptrap imposed upon us through threats, torture, destruction and genocide, by the Church. Strangely, we also had a dying and rising God who brought order to the cosmos. Strangely, we also had a strong set of moral and ethical standards. Strangely, we didnt feel any need to go killing anyone who had another religion solely on the basis of their alternative beliefs.

E

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 5:11:38 AM   
nightphoenix


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quote:

Whether we believe the desecration and murder to have been ordered by the Church, or hold it to be the actions of a rabid minority acting without authority, it is irrelevant. Either way, the source of the crime is the same. We must also remember that in the times under discussion, Christians were just as vicious as anyone else and they were in a battle for power with the old ways.


Not arguing that it wasn't ordered "by the Church"...but, the "Church" at the time didn't resemble anything related to Christianity.

But look at what Jesus taught and commanded.  Then look at the "Church" during the Dark Ages and it should be obvious there's pretty much no connection.

People calling themselves Christian doesn't make them Christian.  (Again, see Fred Phelps for proof of that.)   Jesus did warn that many would come falsely speaking in his name after all.

< Message edited by nightphoenix -- 5/26/2007 5:25:36 AM >

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 5:43:55 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

Not arguing that it wasn't ordered "by the Church"...but, the "Church" at the time didn't resemble anything related to Christianity.

But look at what Jesus taught and commanded.  Then look at the "Church" during the Dark Ages and it should be obvious there's pretty much no connection.

People calling themselves Christian doesn't make them Christian.  (Again, see Fred Phelps for proof of that.)   Jesus did warn that many would come falsely speaking in his name after all.


This is a common argument, but it unfortunately ignores that whether a Christian is an absolutely wonderful person or an absolute monster, he draws the inspiration for his behaviour from the same source text.

I will now get a bit philosophical, but however way one puts it, evil cannot come of good, just as good cannot come from evil. If evil comes from something held to be good, then it indicates that it was not at all good in the first place. If good comes from something held to be evil, then it cannot have been evil in the first place.

That the same source text leads to both good and evil, and in my view much more evil than good, then it can be neither. Since the Christian God is held to be good, he could not possibly lead to anything evil too - which indicates in whole that the Bible cannot be the word or work of God or inspired by God, or that the God supposed to be good is not at all good.

We then get into the issue of "mankind makes errors, but the word is good". Unfortunately this is also an error. Christians, in being baptised and confirmed are blessed with the holy spirit as I understand it - an element of the tripartite God, which is requested to fill them and guide them henceforth in righteousness. It is therefore impossible for such Christians to make errors, blessed in this way, unless either the blessing is ineffective (a heresy), the holy spirit is ineffective (a blasphemy) or the blessing or holy spirit are not real at all.

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 5/26/2007 5:44:37 AM >

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 5:57:14 AM   
nightphoenix


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quote:

We then get into the issue of "mankind makes errors, but the word is good". Unfortunately this is also an error. Christians, in being baptised and confirmed are blessed with the holy spirit as I understand it - an element of the tripartite God, which is requested to fill them and guide them henceforth in righteousness. It is therefore impossible for such Christians to make errors, blessed in this way, unless either the blessing is ineffective (a heresy), the holy spirit is ineffective (a blasphemy) or the blessing or holy spirit are not real at all.


You didn't mention the most important option of that - That said people aren't really baptised with the Holy Spirit at all, but instead used and perverted the Word solely for the purpose of furthering their own agendas.  (Edit:  Again, see Fred Phelps for a modern day example of this, and the Catholic Church accepting bribes to "forgive" sin for an older example.)

Surely you're not arguing that good things cannot be misused for evil purposes...I can give you all kinds of examples of that if so. ;)

< Message edited by nightphoenix -- 5/26/2007 5:59:10 AM >

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 6:51:47 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		It has been truly said that Christianity has not always been the benign social philosophy into which it has developed today.

I thought the Romans were a bloodthirsty lot either pre or post Christianity.
They undoubtedly had high level technical skills, see Roads, Aquaducts, Forts, Cities etc that they built.

Fosse Way and the A5 Watling Street, major road arteries in the UK still in use today. Amazing!

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 7:14:20 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

You didn't mention the most important option of that - That said people aren't really baptised with the Holy Spirit at all, but instead used and perverted the Word solely for the purpose of furthering their own agendas.  (Edit:  Again, see Fred Phelps for a modern day example of this, and the Catholic Church accepting bribes to "forgive" sin for an older example.)

Surely you're not arguing that good things cannot be misused for evil purposes...I can give you all kinds of examples of that if so. ;)


If they are not truly baptised with the holy spirit, then with what is it that they are baptised? The only possible answers to this are
a) nothing at all - the holy spirit does not exist
b) some other spirit which is not the holy spirit
Widening it a little to a position where it is genuinely the holy spirit, the other options are
c) the holy spirit is ineffective - blasphemy
d) the invocation of the holy spirit is ineffective - heresy

Whichever answer or combination of answers one selects, it is clear that the whole basis is deeply flawed.

What we come to is the fact that the Bible and the religion arising from it are instruments of mankind, and as such are as much likely to lead to the highest of ideals in promoting goodness as they are prone to lead to the most monstrous policies and results, dependent on the nature of the person interpreting them and not on the influence of God or the veracity or otherwise of them.

On the good and evil thing - I'm talking more philosophically about the nature of good and evil. Something that is good, must be purely and entirely good otherwise it is not good at all, and the same applies to evil. In our everyday world there are of course many examples of good coming from evil and vice versa, but only subject to our subjective understanding of good and evil - which is not the objective good and evil which I am using. In terms of the goodness of God, which if we allow for it is absolute and objective good, our idea of good is entirely down to our own understanding and as humans is strongly affected by the same flaws which are to be found in other human constructs such as the Bible and Christianity.

Now, this is not to say that the Bible and Christianity et al have no good in them, or even that no good can come of them - according to our understanding of good. Rather that we must take them for what they are and not ascribe any special status to them above any other human institution or creation.

E

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