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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 7:49:34 AM   
nightphoenix


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quote:

If they are not truly baptised with the holy spirit, then with what is it that they are baptised? The only possible answers to this are
a) nothing at all - the holy spirit does not exist
b) some other spirit which is not the holy spirit
Widening it a little to a position where it is genuinely the holy spirit, the other options are
c) the holy spirit is ineffective - blasphemy
d) the invocation of the holy spirit is ineffective - heresy


Or maybe, like I already said, they're simply not Christian, and only using the written words to further their own agenda that has nothing to do with Christianity.  As Jesus warned, many would falsely come in his name.

After all, my whole point is simply that it wasn't Christians that caused the dark ages.  Simply people that claimed to be Christian because it suited them.

< Message edited by nightphoenix -- 5/26/2007 7:51:43 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 8:09:24 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
If it works for them, I say they should go with it.  What upsets me is when they try to inflict it on me.
Sinergy
i appreciate that attitude, Sinergy.  Christianity, the Bible, my faith - all that works very well for me and i never "inflict" it upon other people.  i have been involved in some debates here on the forums and that's the closest i've ever come to trying to get someone else to at least see my point about my beliefs.  i believe and live by the tenets of Christianity but i have no desire to force others to do so.  i don't have faith out of fear or ignorance and, unlike many, i HAVE read and studied the Scriptures and continue to do so.  
 
i abhor many of the things that are done and said in the name of Christianity and most of the public figures who say they represent it are sorry examples of what Christian living is indeed.  Attempting to scare people into believing is just wrong too, in my opinion.  On the other hand, i have never understood the need of non-believers in Christianity to bash it.  You don't believe a word of it and think it's all one big fable?  Fine, you're entitled to that as surely as i'm entitled to believe it.  But, why the need of so many to set about ridiculing the Bible, the Christian faith in general, and those who would believe?  Does calling them ignorant and unlearned somehow make you feel validated and superior?  (Not you, Sinergy - i mean the non-believers in general).  
 
Everytime one of these threads pops up, there are those who have an absolute inability to accept that sincere, intelligent, educated people can and do have faith.  i have two college degrees, have always been a straight "A" student and  voracious reader, and am currently preparing to go back to school for my Master's degree.  i am not ignorant, unintelligent, or backward by any stretch of the imagination and i have read and studied the Bible and believe it.  No, i don't think it's all literal, but i do believe it's the inspired Word of God.  My faith can't be "explained away" by simply classifying me as some backward half-wit who hasn't read it and just doesn't know better.  
 
i don't make myself feel better about my beliefs/faith by bashing others, however.  i don't have to ridicule those who are pagan, Buddhist, atheist or whathaveyou to feel more secure about what i believe.  i'm not sure why others have to.  i think everyone is absolutely entitled to believe or disbelieve whatever they choose to but why the need to constantly discredit believing Christians as ignorant and uneducated?  i just don't get it  ............slave luci


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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 8:56:44 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

The analysis of these data shows one demographic variable that is highly related to views of the Bible -- education. The higher the level of education, the less likely the individual is to believe that the Bible is the actual, literal word of God.



...does this mean that education is the enemy of faith? Or just the enemy of excessive faith?


philosophy:
I would suggest that education is the enemy of ignorance.
thompson

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 10:36:54 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Speaking about the ravages inflicted in the name of Christianity...
quote:

LadyEllen
The countless thousands, maybe millions, who have suffered and died in their efforts to control thought, the wanton destruction of so many achievements and the outright theft of everything from land to culture which it has perpetrated in its history, make it public enemy number one. Forget Osama Bin Laden - he's done nothing by comparison - and is, paradoxically, of the religion which maintained much of the ancient knowledge in the centuries following the Christian's efforts to destroy it


Its true Osama hasn't done much......YET !!Well argued posts all the same LadyE.

Thompson:
Education is frequently the great friend of sophistry, dissembly and deceit.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/26/2007 10:39:45 AM >

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 11:02:26 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"Education is frequently the great friend of sophistry, dissembly and deceit."

...does this mean you consider lack of education to be a friend to straight-forwardness, honesty and trustworthiness?

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 11:34:41 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave




Thompson:
Education is frequently the great friend of sophistry, dissembly and deceit.


Seeksfemslave:
I would have thought it was arrogance and not education that is the friend of sophistry,dissembly and deceit.
thompson

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 11:54:35 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

the Catholic Church accepting bribes to "forgive" sin for an older example.)



If I remember correctly, those were referred to as "indulgences."

Can find out more about Martin Luther's attitudes towards them here:

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm

Sinergy

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 1:10:19 PM   
nightphoenix


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Status: offline 		Effectively the church took bribes to forgive sin.  They hid the gospels, made them pretty much illegal for anyone to reach without the church's interpretation and in the language of their choosing because the actual gospels were a threat to their power...

They acted so extremely un-Christian, that it's just ludicrous to me to try and call them Christian.

And thus, blaming Christianity for setting the world back 500 years is equally ludicrous...or should be to anyone who actually knows anything about Christianity.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 1:54:24 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The Christians destroyed these libraries


Are we sure it was Christians who destroyed the library at Alexandria? Wikipedia (a handy if admittedly nondefinitive source) suggests that there are conflicting theories as to what happened.

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 2:12:44 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousexplorer

"But other cultures are crucial to this discussion. They're like the controls in an experiment."

Actually they are not. First of all they have religions of their own, and even without that they would have to be at the same level with the same controls.


I agree that they're not perfect controls, but they are the closest things we have. If your theory that Christianity was the retarding agent is correct, there should be some point (the end of the Dark Ages perhaps?) at which non-Christian cultures were centuries ahead of Christian ones.

If, morever, as you argue, all cultures had some sort of religion, the different rates at which cultures progressed would seem to suggest that religion wasn't the key factor holding everyone back.

quote:

Your assuming they all were at the same level and progressed evenly under the similar circumstances?


If you're correct in fingering Christianity was the retarding agent, non-Christian cultures should have been ahead of Christian ones even before the Dark Ages, let alone at then end of them.

quote:

The point is not what other cultures didn't do, but what christianity itself stopped, or slowed down.


I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it's hard to argue credibly that Christianity was the determining factor if progress (or lack thereof) wasn't markedly different in Christian cultures than in non-Christian ones. Might it be that what made the Dark Ages dark was not Christianity (which both predated and outlived the Dark Ages and even presided over the Renaissance) but the chaos that followed the collapse of Roman rule?

quote:

And we haven't overcome the christianity hurdle yet, as shown by the I.D. joke gone mad.


Fair soul that I try to be, I do agree that the I.D. debacle is impeding scientific education. Ditto for religious limits on stem-cell research.



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 2:36:02 PM   
KeirasSecret


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quote:

Religions are formed from fear and ignorance. At one time people were scared of the thunder, so they invented thunder gods they could pray to and make sacrifices for so the thunder wouldn't hurt them. Their are gods to rpotect the house, and other gods to protect the entire village. The fear is the reason for the gods, the ignorance is thinking they'll stop what you fear. The local war god is often more than a match for the protection gods, as are the natural disaster gods.
 

I have already stated, I do not associate myself with any specific religion.

Up until I was about 14, I had only been to Sunday school, maybe two or three times, (visiting a cousin). At around 14, I started attending Catholic serves with my maternal grandparents, (needed an excuse to get away form my prenatal units). I made it through first communion classes, but since at the end of my last class, the priest who had been instructing me, damned me to Hell when I refused to stay alone with him, while waiting for my grandmother to come pick me up, I decided to stop going, (wasn’t really buying it anyway).

In my twenties, I took up the offer of some of “Jehovah’s witnesses” to study the Bible, to try and disprove my over baring mother-in-law and brother-in-law, who felt it was their responsibility to cram their beliefs down my throat.

I think right about the time I told my mother-in-law, I would like to see her eat the egg shell and show me how to stay warm from the smoke of a burnt out match; to demonstrate how the separate properties of each were of equal value, she quit asking me to go to her church.

Of course the "Wittnesses" stopped coming to study, when I realize I couldn’t be “good” enough, but by that time I had grasped the major concepts; humility, courteousness, honesty, and loyalty, obedience and honor to my Master. Though, I was still not sure of there practical use at that time.

These, are all the same things I practice in my D/s relationship. If they are right in D/s, why are they wrong in the Bible?

I found my faith as a kid, while playing in the woods here in New Hampshire, not in what others told me of God (half the story), not some building built by man, and back in those days, I thought the Bible was a bunch of crap, written by men for men.

In those woods, I was safe, time stood still, and the rest of the word no longer existed. It felt like a play ground set up just for me, and while I felt very small, marveling at all the wonder, never once did I feel belittled by it.

My faith comes from science; everything runs so perfectly, (until man interferes). To me Earth, the universe and all it holds, is a masterpiece of exquisite beauty. I didn’t think masterpieces came about by chance.

I have often wished I saw the world in a more “primary color” sort of way, instead of my 250+ pack of crayons; it hurts to look around, see what is; while, knowing what could be. Then I think of all I'd be missing.

Side note: When I was afraid of thunder, as a kid, I was told to go sit out in the car, out in the yard, by myself; it was safer there because of the rubber tires, and while I readily admit, I often liked to pretend “Zeus is my real daddy”, in my mid-teens; I did realize it was only pretend. ;)

< Message edited by KeirasSecret -- 5/26/2007 3:14:58 PM >

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It apears to me, the practice of "an eye for an eye" has finally taken it's toll; the majority are now walking around blind.

Bitching; whining in a louder voice.

If the truth hurts, change it!

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 2:38:28 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

What really annoys me though, is that we had a perfectly good and far more advanced religion than the simple minded claptrap imposed upon us through threats, torture, destruction and genocide, by the Church. Strangely, we also had a dying and rising God who brought order to the cosmos. Strangely, we also had a strong set of moral and ethical standards. Strangely, we didnt feel any need to go killing anyone who had another religion solely on the basis of their alternative beliefs.


Which religion was that, LE? Sounds appealing.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 3:03:15 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
"Education is frequently the great friend of sophistry, dissembly and deceit."
...does this mean you consider lack of education to be a friend to straight forwardness, honesty and trustworthiness?


Not infrequently YES !
Educated verbose types can and frequently do explain away the most outrageous failures and downright deceit.
Ill educated semi literates simply dont have the skills to do that.

Dont forget honesty definately does not mean putting forward arguments that PC Liberals think are "correct".See the knee jerk reaction to what Margaret Hodge just said about allocation of housing and preferential treatment given to immigrants and asylum seekers over the indigenous population. he he he he he !!!!

In fact the arguments used to justify further massive expenditure on higher education in the UK are themselves dishonest not straight forward and untrustworthy.See the Daphnes and Julians  with degrees doing quite mundane jobs for which they know by virtue of their education they deserve better.
What an ego destroyer that must be. lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/26/2007 3:12:11 PM >

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 3:14:17 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

What really annoys me though, is that we had a perfectly good and far more advanced religion than the simple minded claptrap imposed upon us through threats, torture, destruction and genocide, by the Church. Strangely, we also had a dying and rising God who brought order to the cosmos. Strangely, we also had a strong set of moral and ethical standards. Strangely, we didnt feel any need to go killing anyone who had another religion solely on the basis of their alternative beliefs.


Which religion was that, LE? Sounds appealing.


Asatru. Though beware if you look it up that there are enough idiots within it the same as within Christianity. Difference being that we decide who is true based on their deeds, rather than whether "the holy spirit" has been invoked on them or whether they say the right things.

In the spirit of the thread, perhaps I could propose myself as the one true guide to it? I could put together a few texts to establish my right to do so, murder anyone who argued against it and seize wealth and power along the way..... but that wouldnt necessarily be in line with the religion. Mind you, its not what Jesus proposed either as I understand it, but that doesnt seem to have hindered his followers much.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 3:15:23 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Thanks, LE. I'd never heard of it and will try to learn more.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 3:23:52 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Thanks, LE. I'd never heard of it and will try to learn more.


I would suggest first a grounding in Norse mythology and Germanic folklore. Then turn to the more reliable modern sources (Teutonic Religion by Kveldulf Gundarsson and A Book Of Troth by Edred Thorsson). Studying the runes also helps a lot - again both authors have good works available. I would advise ignoring "Norse wicca" type approaches and most definitely the right wing flavoured stuff which sadly still attaches itself to Asatru in the mistaken notion that Asatru somehow supports their views.

Asatru is a state religion in Iceland and in Norway incidentally; its the only real deal surviving European pagan (though we use heathen) religion.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 3:27:18 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

LadyE <discussing Asatru>
In the spirit of the thread, perhaps I could propose myself as the one true guide to it? I could put together a few texts to establish my right to do so, murder anyone who argued against it and seize wealth and power along the way..... but that wouldnt necessarily be in line with the religion. Mind you, its not what Jesus proposed either as I understand it, but that doesnt seem to have hindered his followers much


Does that mean you were born of a virgin ?
I myself am "almost" a virgin, if thats possible lol
As yet I have no message for the World. I'm finkin hard tho'

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 3:38:12 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"Educated verbose types can and frequently do explain away the most outrageous failures and downright deceit.
Ill educated semi literates simply dont have the skills to do that."

..oh i think you underestimate the ill-educated. Come to think of it, i'm fairly sure there have been a number of spurious and self serving arguments posted in these fora by people opposed to educated people.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 3:40:46 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Does that mean you were born of a virgin ?
I myself am "almost" a virgin, if thats possible lol
As yet I have no message for the World. I'm finkin hard tho'



Ellen's coming into the world was certainly unusual Seeks, when you fink about it.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True - 5/26/2007 7:33:52 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
If it works for them, I say they should go with it.  What upsets me is when they try to inflict it on me.
Sinergy
i appreciate that attitude, Sinergy.  Christianity, the Bible, my faith - all that works very well for me and i never "inflict" it upon other people.  i have been involved in some debates here on the forums and that's the closest i've ever come to trying to get someone else to at least see my point about my beliefs.  i believe and live by the tenets of Christianity but i have no desire to force others to do so.  i don't have faith out of fear or ignorance and, unlike many, i HAVE read and studied the Scriptures and continue to do so.  
 
i abhor many of the things that are done and said in the name of Christianity and most of the public figures who say they represent it are sorry examples of what Christian living is indeed.  Attempting to scare people into believing is just wrong too, in my opinion.  On the other hand, i have never understood the need of non-believers in Christianity to bash it.  You don't believe a word of it and think it's all one big fable?  Fine, you're entitled to that as surely as i'm entitled to believe it.  But, why the need of so many to set about ridiculing the Bible, the Christian faith in general, and those who would believe?  Does calling them ignorant and unlearned somehow make you feel validated and superior?  (Not you, Sinergy - i mean the non-believers in general).  
 
Everytime one of these threads pops up, there are those who have an absolute inability to accept that sincere, intelligent, educated people can and do have faith.  i have two college degrees, have always been a straight "A" student and  voracious reader, and am currently preparing to go back to school for my Master's degree.  i am not ignorant, unintelligent, or backward by any stretch of the imagination and i have read and studied the Bible and believe it.  No, i don't think it's all literal, but i do believe it's the inspired Word of God.  My faith can't be "explained away" by simply classifying me as some backward half-wit who hasn't read it and just doesn't know better.  
 
i don't make myself feel better about my beliefs/faith by bashing others, however.  i don't have to ridicule those who are pagan, Buddhist, atheist or whathaveyou to feel more secure about what i believe.  i'm not sure why others have to.  i think everyone is absolutely entitled to believe or disbelieve whatever they choose to but why the need to constantly discredit believing Christians as ignorant and uneducated?  i just don't get it  ............slave luci



Well said, luci. I believe in God, and believe he has worked wonders in my life, but I have zero interest in cramming those beliefs down anyone's throat.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

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