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RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/2/2007 5:49:30 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou

Heck, the reason i don't have a slave now is because i haven't found one i feel is mature Enough to suit my needs. No babies wanted here, or doormats either. I need someone who is strong enough and secure enough in themselves to yield to me


the one and only Dom i served told me having someone weak submit to you shows nothing but the weakness they possess.  He completely made me understand strength and submission meld beautifully.....at least it worked for us.
 
and working for the "us" is all that really matters in the end, as only "us" have to live with the rules.
 
my thoughts only-and again i say i love this forum.

(in reply to hereyesruponyou)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/2/2007 6:13:02 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

So often you see people compaering sub/slaves to children... such as with discapline and punishment and many other things. I want to know why?? Do you Doms not crave an adult partner who needs you yet can take care of themsevs if you arent there?? ....Am I the only one that thinks sub/slaves deserve more credit and respect then that??

Magik's slave

Greetings girl,
 
I'm not comfortable with grouping subs and BDSM/TPE slaves and kajirae together. But that said, here is at least a Gorean point of view...
 
High intelligence and imagination, perhaps interestingly from the point of view of a man of Earth, are highly prized in women by Gorean men. Indeed, a woman who is known to be intelligent and imaginative will bring a much higher price than some duller, but more beautiful, sister in bondage. Goreans, unlike many men of Earth, have very little interest in stupid women.  ~ Hunters of Gor
 
Your mileage may vary.
 
IWYW,
 
Kirata
 


(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/2/2007 7:27:05 PM   
SlpBeauty333


Posts: 17
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou

Heck, the reason i don't have a slave now is because i haven't found one i feel is mature Enough to suit my needs. No babies wanted here, or doormats either. I need someone who is strong enough and secure enough in themselves to yield to me


Exactly.  How can anyone possibly surrender what they do not have (i.e. control)? 

It's like expecting me to fork over my pink elephant.

(in reply to hereyesruponyou)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/2/2007 7:50:52 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
I equate submissives to children NOT because I find them immature (they are people, meaning some are great and some suck) but because that is an effective analogy to how to train them.  In the West we don't have a language for how to deal with changing/training an adult on the level that we mean in BDSM.

Now this works for me because it works for me, I attract the sort of women it works on and what I do works for the kind of women I attract so it is in many ways a self fulfilling prophesy. 

If I want someone to stop being late, I can "speak to them as an adult" but they have had others address them as adults and they are still late.  I don't bend them over my knee and spank them.   I try and figure out why they have this issue, both by talking directly with them as well as using whatever skill/intuition I possess.  I may deal with the issue directly by making it clear being on time is important, I may give rewards for being on time and some negative reinforcement for being late.  Some of that may be obvious to the person however, some of it I might do in a way they don't get and isn't meant for them on a conscious level.

When you want a child to change a behavior, you first have to figure out why they do it and what they get out of doing it.  You then need to redirect that behavior, reward them for doing well and since attention is a primary goal of children you need to ensure the positive reinforcement and attention far outweighs the negative.

You could say submissives are children, you could also say they are animals and the techniques you use on either work.  They also tend to work on humans and oddly enough, most submissives are human too.

(in reply to SlpBeauty333)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/2/2007 8:03:48 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
Post to cjenny nixed. Guess I should have read on about the sliver bits before posting. Sorry.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 6/2/2007 8:05:01 PM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to cjenny)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/2/2007 8:14:50 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeggyO

A submissive or slave can put forward an idea and it won't be given the same weight than if a dominant puts it forward.  I have seen this in action; a sub will say something - it is more or less ignored.


Have you had a closer look at whether this holds equally true for male subs? I suspect it may be more of a gender prejudice thing than anything tied to orientation, but that's just speculation on my part. FWIW, I've observed the same thing, and hope I've been successful at not making that mistake.

quote:

Although I don't put up with this attitude and behavior when I encounter it, I encounter it far too often.  The fact is I don't feel I should be encountering it at all.


~nod~

A lot of people don't accord subs the respect they deserve. I've seen it more in online communities like this than offline ones, though.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to PeggyO)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/2/2007 8:40:52 PM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
So what about transactional analysis and it's three 'ego states' of Parent, Adult and Child and the very close similarities and analogies you can make with BDSM and D/s?

You can find out what TA or transactional analysis is at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

I also very recently made the comparison and explained the connection in my posting in the age play thread which can be found at:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_1052331/mpage_4/key_/tm.htm

It might help to shed light on a matter raised in this thread.

_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/2/2007 10:21:02 PM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

A parent guides a child, teaching it, shaping it and helping it grow to the parent's desires. A parent also rewards and punishes a child.

This is similar to a Dom and a sub. Does this make it a problem?



Not for me. I am aware of TA or transactional analysis and role play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Interestingly enough, many subs seem quite bratty. Many are vastly immature. (Many, but I'm not saying any particular sub who reads this is.. not trying to insult anyone, just an observation.)


Ah, that depends what type of sub you're looking for, the age of the sub and where you are looking for the sub. I think this is a generalisation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Doms, by contrast, seem more reserved, certain, and responsible.


Why? Because they call themselves Doms? All Doms? This is definitely a generalisation. But an amusing one. Almost childlike and juvenile in its thinking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
This is particularly exmplified in stronger versions of the D/s aspect, such as in the Gorgean end, where Masters discuss things among eachother, slaves are to act as a Master deems them to, more often than not bid to respect other Masters. Hell, there's a "girlie time" thread on that board last time I checked, and it's more than just a little popular.


Gorgean? Do you mean here Gorean? Or Georgian? That's quite interesting - Georgian BDSM - anyone else interested?

Ah so what you're saying is that just because you define yourself as a Master or Dom this makes you reserved, certain and responsible?

Okay, so I am actually a witch, and this makes me able to cast magic spells. I'm now going to turn you into a frog.

Are you now a frog?

Of course not. But because I am a witch and define myself as such I may persist in believing that no matter what you say and what you look like (please don't destroy my argument by responding with the words 'ribbit' 'ribbit') my perception of myself differs from the reality.

And this to me is a far bigger issue in the BDSM community (especially online) than emotional maturity.


_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/3/2007 1:08:13 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
Heh.  I'm sorry if you've taken offense, though you may have inadvertantly served as an example.  Or, perhaps this was intentional?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Interestingly enough, many subs seem quite bratty. Many are vastly immature. (Many, but I'm not saying any particular sub who reads this is.. not trying to insult anyone, just an observation.)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stella40
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
This is particularly exmplified in stronger versions of the D/s aspect, such as in the Gorgean end, where Masters discuss things among eachother, slaves are to act as a Master deems them to, more often than not bid to respect other Masters. Hell, there's a "girlie time" thread on that board last time I checked, and it's more than just a little popular.


Gorgean? Do you mean here Gorean? Or Georgian? That's quite interesting - Georgian BDSM - anyone else interested?


I typo'd "Gorean" as "Gorgean"- and you got this from it.  Does this line not strike you as somewhat bratty?  From this, I must if this was satirical?

In any case, yes, my post was about generalizations.  I said "many".. not all.  Many people in the US have HIV.  That doesn't even mean 10% of the population.  (Incidently, to anyone who may be reading this, infected with HIV, I mean no offense- I understand it's a horrid condition to have to suffer and my condolenses.)

And, of course, calling one's self a "Dom" doesn't make one more mature.  Still, particularly, as I said, in the more extreme aspects of D/s, such as in M/s, dominant parties tend to take increasing responsibility for their submissives, until the point of (complete?) accountability at the Gorean bit.  This said, one freely deciding to take on such responsibilities- and able to maintain them as becoming of one in such a trust- is liable to be a mature individual.

To use your anology, saying you're a witch doesn't make you magical.  Real witches are (should there have been such a thing as a real witch or magic!).  In the same way, you needn't be responsible to claim to be a dominant.  Still, who's talking about posers (and what is with the communal obsession with such)?  I'm talking about real dominants- just as, in your anology, I'd be talking about real witches.

On this note, would one such as yourself be willing to consider the advantages of a relationship containing a submissive, child-like partner?

While I try to reply to everyone who says something to me, this summer's grown very busy.  I may be delayed and/or miss responses.  To this end, if a more immediate response is desired, either for clarifation or interest, I would invite you to message me on the site, as I do check my email pretty regularly (which receives a nofication when I get a message on here), even if I don't have time for the actual site.

(in reply to stella40)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/3/2007 12:50:12 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Heh.  I'm sorry if you've taken offense, though you may have inadvertantly served as an example.  Or, perhaps this was intentional?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Interestingly enough, many subs seem quite bratty. Many are vastly immature. (Many, but I'm not saying any particular sub who reads this is.. not trying to insult anyone, just an observation.)





I was very offended I didnt take the time to breath befor I posted but  i came and admitted that I did over react a bit, over reacting may have been childish. I think its a humen trait but if you want to call it childish I can admit to haveing acted poorly, however comeing back admiting it and apologiseing was an adult thing to do, so you can focus on the negative of my behavior here if that can searve to make you feel better about haveing insulted me, if consentrating on my negative behavior can ease you conscience about your negative behavior that helped contribute to it go for it, but I am choosing to be proud of how I handled things it takes a big person to admit they are wrong and not go but but but but but trying to cover their trail. And I guess im not above patting myself on the back for  doing it. Seeing as no on els will I can provide my own possative reinforsment!!


Edited to fix the quoting... man the was a lot of text I didnt need.

Magik's slave

< Message edited by MagiksSlave -- 6/3/2007 12:53:03 PM >


_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/3/2007 1:09:16 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Heh.  I'm sorry if you've taken offense, though you may have inadvertantly served as an example.  Or, perhaps this was intentional?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Interestingly enough, many subs seem quite bratty. Many are vastly immature. (Many, but I'm not saying any particular sub who reads this is.. not trying to insult anyone, just an observation.)





I was very offended I didnt take the time to breath befor I posted but  i came and admitted that I did over react a bit, over reacting may have been childish. I think its a humen trait but if you want to call it childish I can admit to haveing acted poorly, however comeing back admiting it and apologiseing was an adult thing to do, so you can focus on the negative of my behavior here if that can searve to make you feel better about haveing insulted me, if consentrating on my negative behavior can ease you conscience about your negative behavior that helped contribute to it go for it, but I am choosing to be proud of how I handled things it takes a big person to admit they are wrong and not go but but but but but trying to cover their trail. And I guess im not above patting myself on the back for  doing it. Seeing as no on els will I can provide my own possative reinforsment!!


Well, if you went back and fixed something you found yourself in error over, that was acting appropriate and becoming of one in a state of maturity.

Still, I must ask.. the bit I posted wasn't to you; why did you seemingly respond to it as though it was?


(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/3/2007 1:11:32 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline
I miss read the first part... sorry I should really have my eyes checked LOL!!!


Magik's sleepy slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/3/2007 1:13:54 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
It's all good.

I hope you sleep well.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/3/2007 1:54:47 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline
I may sleep if someone is willing to hit me over the head with someting.... Havent slept more then a few house a day in weeks!!!


Magik's sleepless slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/3/2007 10:12:28 PM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Heh. I'm sorry if you've taken offense, though you may have inadvertantly served as an example. Or, perhaps this was intentional?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Interestingly enough, many subs seem quite bratty. Many are vastly immature. (Many, but I'm not saying any particular sub who reads this is.. not trying to insult anyone, just an observation.)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stella40
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
This is particularly exmplified in stronger versions of the D/s aspect, such as in the Gorgean end, where Masters discuss things among eachother, slaves are to act as a Master deems them to, more often than not bid to respect other Masters. Hell, there's a "girlie time" thread on that board last time I checked, and it's more than just a little popular.


Gorgean? Do you mean here Gorean? Or Georgian? That's quite interesting - Georgian BDSM - anyone else interested?


I typo'd "Gorean" as "Gorgean"- and you got this from it. Does this line not strike you as somewhat bratty? From this, I must if this was satirical?

In any case, yes, my post was about generalizations. I said "many".. not all. Many people in the US have HIV. That doesn't even mean 10% of the population. (Incidently, to anyone who may be reading this, infected with HIV, I mean no offense- I understand it's a horrid condition to have to suffer and my condolenses.)

And, of course, calling one's self a "Dom" doesn't make one more mature. Still, particularly, as I said, in the more extreme aspects of D/s, such as in M/s, dominant parties tend to take increasing responsibility for their submissives, until the point of (complete?) accountability at the Gorean bit. This said, one freely deciding to take on such responsibilities- and able to maintain them as becoming of one in such a trust- is liable to be a mature individual.

To use your anology, saying you're a witch doesn't make you magical. Real witches are (should there have been such a thing as a real witch or magic!). In the same way, you needn't be responsible to claim to be a dominant. Still, who's talking about posers (and what is with the communal obsession with such)? I'm talking about real dominants- just as, in your anology, I'd be talking about real witches.

On this note, would one such as yourself be willing to consider the advantages of a relationship containing a submissive, child-like partner?

While I try to reply to everyone who says something to me, this summer's grown very busy. I may be delayed and/or miss responses. To this end, if a more immediate response is desired, either for clarifation or interest, I would invite you to message me on the site, as I do check my email pretty regularly (which receives a nofication when I get a message on here), even if I don't have time for the actual site.


No I haven't taken offence, nor did I wish to cause you any, I was just curious as to why you thought like you did.

I generalise as well, sometimes much more than I think or am willing to admit to. Generalisation need not be an ill-formed opinion or a lack of knowledge, it may also be due to a strong opinion based on many experiences or information where many examples always have the same characteristics or arrive at the same conclusion.

Would I take on (as a Dom) a submissive child-like partner? Yes I would. Even if that submissive was 'immature' (which I think is the word a few people mean when they talk about being childlike). Child-like suggests naivety and openness, a willingness to trust, whereas immaturity suggests a lack of life experience, hardly life-threatening or profoundly anti-social traits.

I think almost all personality and character traits have two sides, positive and negative, depending on your own personal perspective. If a Dom is seen as reserved by someone he can also be seen as stiff by some one else, shrewd by someone else and boring by yet another person. This is why impulsive can be stupid to some people and spontaneous to others.

But to quote Shakespeare "There is nothing good or bad in this world, only thinking makes it so."

Edited to add: The Georgian BDSM was my attempt at making a joke, not necessarily at anyone's expense. Oh okay I might have been sending up Gorean BDSM, but surely being into Gor doesn't entail sacrificing a sense of humour, or does it? But apologies if any offence was caused, it certainly wasn't intended.



< Message edited by stella40 -- 6/3/2007 10:18:28 PM >


_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/4/2007 4:30:49 AM   
Daughtry


Posts: 81
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Greetings girl,
 
I'm not comfortable with grouping subs and BDSM/TPE slaves and kajirae together. But that said, here is at least a Gorean point of view...
 
High intelligence and imagination, perhaps interestingly from the point of view of a man of Earth, are highly prized in women by Gorean men. Indeed, a woman who is known to be intelligent and imaginative will bring a much higher price than some duller, but more beautiful, sister in bondage. Goreans, unlike many men of Earth, have very little interest in stupid women.  ~ Hunters of Gor
 
Your mileage may vary.
 
IWYW,
 
Kirata


I often see this position espoused, almost by rote, by Gorean men, but in my experience the actual practice by those of the online Gor variety is quite different.  Many of those seem attracted by the ability to fall back on "Silence, woman!" in the world of online Gor when they are outwitted by a woman.   So while this quote does appear in one of Lang's novels, its not an opinion all Gorean males are capable of upholding.  Far too many are unable to deal with a woman past the "giggle, hair flip, Im just a girl!" stage. 

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/4/2007 7:55:25 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
I have been reading some of the responses to this thread, all full of judgment against submissives that enjoy being treated like children, who desire feeling safe and small and protected... you all are a very judgmental lot, aren't you?

As far as being treated like a child being degrading? I am often talked to like a child, and I do not feel degraded by this, was I supposed to feel this way in my dynamic? Funny, I do not, even after reading all the posts that talk about how I should feel this way.

I am a pretty capable person. In the "adult world" I get asked my opinion by other "adults" all the time.. even my own mother often relies upon me. I do have a very strong desire to be treated like a child sometimes... not age play per se, but to be talked to like I am a child. It is a productive headspace for me. Now my kink is not your kink, but my kink is ok. I would not have a problem with a sub cafe. I do not understand why others have a problem with it. If you do not like it, don't go! Of course the world is supposed to revolve around each person's narrow worldview of "how it should be" instead of allowing people to live the way they would like... what's it to you?

Another thing I would like to address, if being treated like a child is so degrading I suppose a lot of parents need their asses kicked for degrading their UMs. I have done everything I could not to treat my UM in a degrading fashion, and I was not degraded as a wee one either. Now for those who think being treated like a child is so bad, perhaps that is a reflection of your own childhood.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/4/2007 7:59:04 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
Wow Julia, this is weird, the voice/tone you used in your post here is COMPLETELY different than what I've ever seen from you before.  It feel like it's been written by someone else completely.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/4/2007 8:07:19 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
well it is me writing, the OP and some of the responses on the first page struck me as rather degrading to other people... more so than a sub cafe ever could be...Just my opinion

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Sub/slave=child - 6/4/2007 8:11:01 AM   
imthatacheyouhav


Posts: 1259
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daughtry

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Greetings girl,
 
I'm not comfortable with grouping subs and BDSM/TPE slaves and kajirae together. But that said, here is at least a Gorean point of view...
 
High intelligence and imagination, perhaps interestingly from the point of view of a man of Earth, are highly prized in women by Gorean men. Indeed, a woman who is known to be intelligent and imaginative will bring a much higher price than some duller, but more beautiful, sister in bondage. Goreans, unlike many men of Earth, have very little interest in stupid women.  ~ Hunters of Gor
 
Your mileage may vary.
 
IWYW,
 
Kirata


I often see this position espoused, almost by rote, by Gorean men, but in my experience the actual practice by those of the online Gor variety is quite different.  Many of those seem attracted by the ability to fall back on "Silence, woman!" in the world of online Gor when they are outwitted by a woman.   So while this quote does appear in one of Lang's novels, its not an opinion all Gorean males are capable of upholding.  Far too many are unable to deal with a woman past the "giggle, hair flip, Im just a girl!" stage. 





_____________________________

*if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything*
**collared July 22 2007 by LordKen**

(in reply to Daughtry)
Profile   Post #: 80
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