RE: Sub/slave=child (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 8:18:13 AM)

quote:

Likewise in the scene, I think a lot of subs act as they do because they believe this ideal of "that's how subs SHOULD act" and use submission as a convenient excuse for their lack of ability.

A far different situation than "This is who I am and how I want to live for myself."

Not that we should prevent them- they still need to make their own choices, for whatever motivations they come from and whatever ends they may lead to.  But it is a legitimate cultural concern to have


You see, I think it is completely a valid view of submission to think that being submissive means that one lacks life skills to take care of themselves, and they need a big strong dominant person to keep the wolves at bay. It is not my view of submission, it is obviously not your view of submission, but that does not mean it is not a valid view of submission.

We all get what we get out of submission. I am not going to sit here and say that someone that is getting their desires met to be immature, childish, and irresponsible and not choose for themselves is one iota less submissive than me. I think for THEM it is a submissive trait.

I have not always known what I wanted and where I wanted to go, in fact there are times I still do not know these things because in my opinion that is what living is for, to learn where I am going and what I want. As far as knowing who I am, hmmmm, what a novel concept! I have an idea of the core of me, but the details change. So it is a lot to expect people who are at times half my age to know these things, and those who think they do, well i thought I knew a lot more than I actually did once upon a time too. For most of us lesser mortals, well we do not truly get comfortable in our skin until after middle age. Not a universal, just an observation about the many people I have observed in life.

Not that there is anything wrong with judging people LA, but a judgment is a judgment... I just do not make the same judgments as you... I suppose because I have never been involved with a public scene that I have a different view. We practice Ds by ourselves, for ourselves. It is not really a cultural thing for me. I do not see how others express their identity as any of my business frankly... but that is just me



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 8:22:03 AM)

But then the REAL crux of the issue is when they want that (agreed, perfectly valid) view that submission = lacking life skills and them simultaneously go on about how strong and capable they are.

Not that this doesn't happen everywhere in every culture- but it's the contradiction of self which I find most disturbing.



BeingChewsie -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 8:35:08 AM)

Hi LA,

I see the cultural issues as just the opposite, I don't find them concerning though.. I don't know, but if we say for the sake of argument that collarme represents a *valid* picture of people who incorporate D/s into their lives, then people who *act* like they want someone to take care of them, lack some *unknown* standard of living, or who live in dynamics where the dominant partner is the more responsbile party are a tiny fraction of the group. We are drowned out by the cries of the rest of the group that say it is "bad, bad, bad subbie to want that"...if anything things are the absolute reverse of what you say they are. I'm on lots of groups, lots of them with people from all over the world and even there the number of submissive people who also want a dominant partner to make all their decisions and want little to no responsbility within the dyanmic are very small..if it is 1% or 2% I'd be surprised. So where are all these people you are talking about?  They certainly don't post to collarme, or any other group I'm on...perhaps you are seeing this at munches and play parties? I don't attend those so perhaps in those places there are herds of submissive people behaving that way?

As a side note, as a mom who has just cut from full-time employment to part- time to work at home 90% of the time...the bias is exactly the opposite..it is SAHM/WAHM getting the flack for not working out of the home these days...not working moms..almost everybody is a working mom out of the home these days.



quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:


The way other "subbies" like to be treated has nothing to do with me, and if people do not like the way they are treated, they should really look in the mirror

I agree.  And that's certainly nothing to what I have posted about in this thread at all.  I completely agree with Chewsie and you- we need to be able to be who we are, and who people are won't change who I am or how I prefer to live my life.

I think it's more a cultural issue.  For example, a lot of people complain that women choosing to stay home these days gives women a bad rap and makes it harder for women who choose to work and have children.  There may be a point to that, but that doesn't mean we should prevent people from doing what's best for them- ultimately that would be counter productive to EVERYONE.

I think the issue comes down to more when women feel they SHOULD stay home because "that's what women do" rather than being true to themselves.

Likewise in the scene, I think a lot of subs act as they do because they believe this ideal of "that's how subs SHOULD act" and use submission as a convenient excuse for their lack of ability.

A far different situation than "This is who I am and how I want to live for myself."

Not that we should prevent them- they still need to make their own choices, for whatever motivations they come from and whatever ends they may lead to.  But it is a legitimate cultural concern to have.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 8:44:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
As a side note, as a mom who has just cut from full-time employment to part- time to work at home 90% of the time...the bias is exactly the opposite..it is SAHM/WAHM getting the flack for not working out of the home these days...not working moms..almost everybody is a working mom out of the home these days.


That's the point I was trying to make and draw a parallel to-  WAHMs are the ones' bitching that the SAHMs are traitors and making it harder for women (although there is a chunk of SAHMs who bitch about WAHMs and how they are leading to the downfall of the family and society, too).

Likewise, SS subs (self sufficient) bitch about D subs (dependent) about how they make it harder for subs to get seen as regular people and treated appropriately, as well as that they "should" hold to some standard of behavior.  Likewise also, there is a contingent of D subs who will bitch that SS subs are doing it all wrong and leading to the downfall of "true slavery."

And of course that's all wrong.  The whole idea of cutting people down for making their own truths and choices for themselves ends up hurting ALL of us in the end.  I might think someone's being stupid and will actually say so given the right context- but I will never suggest they are wrong for making the choice they feel is right for them.

Perhaps what I see does happen more offline- perhaps it's more a "what peoples actions show vs how big their collar is" sort of deal.  But I do see it a lot- subs who get bristled and upset at the slightest notion that they can't deal with life and are using bdsm as a way to hide from it...and then can't get their act together and dom-hop constantly everytime there's a semi-crisis.

Personally I think the number of white knight suitor's we have around is also a good indicator that there's a lot of subs out there looking to be saved, but as you say, very few actually talk that sort of talk.



littledove00 -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 1:23:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

A lot of subs don't exactly help the problem either. There is more than a small percentage of subs who ACT like children, who want to be taken care of, who don't want to have to be responsible for themselves and who get themselves taken care of by being immature and helpless. Most wont admit that though.


i most certainly want to be taken care of, and see nothing wrong with that. i am not a child, nor do i act like one(most of the time :D). the issue is when does one want to be taken care of? if it's a constant, then yes, i agree it's an issue. but if i'm bound and helpless, my significant others have agreed to be responsible for me, have they not? to take care of me.



MagiksSlave -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 1:28:43 PM)

HMM very interesting back and forth and I have to say I agree and disagree with both points. I think personaly MY opinion is a sub that is a sub because they lack life skills and want to be taken care of arent in my opinion subs becuase then really who is searving who, if the Dom has to play parent to the sub isnt the sub really the one makeing the demands?? I dont know seems a little backwords to me cuz it seems that the Dom is searving the sub and all of the subs wants and needs to not have to have respionsability or take care of themselfs at all. I could be wrong but at this point it is how I see it.

Magik's slave



Aswad -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 3:26:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

[...] SS subs [...]


Entirely off topic, but there's a thought... maybe if all the SS had subs, they'd be too busy amusing themselves to do all the other stuff. [:D]



BeingChewsie -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 3:46:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

HMM very interesting back and forth and I have to say I agree and disagree with both points. I think personaly MY opinion is a sub that is a sub because they lack life skills and want to be taken care of arent in my opinion subs becuase then really who is searving who, if the Dom has to play parent to the sub isnt the sub really the one makeing the demands?? I dont know seems a little backwords to me cuz it seems that the Dom is searving the sub and all of the subs wants and needs to not have to have respionsability or take care of themselfs at all. I could be wrong but at this point it is how I see it.

Magik's slave


We went over why this is a faulty premise already but I'll try again, if you are submitting to a dominating influence you are acting/being submissive, so therefore are *being* a sub. There needn't be any *serving* going on for there to be *submitting* going on. They can be and often are mutually exclusive ideas and practices. This isn't the CA school system where 1+1 can = *fork* instead of *2* if you believe it equals *fork*.

I'm still not following what "lacking life skills" means. I have a graduate degree and work multiple jobs, part time from the comfort of my home in my pj's mostly these days with thanks to my owner. I don't see the connection between not wanting to make decisions/not wanting responsbility and the leap to lacking "life skills" especially when no one seems to be able to clarify what exactly those are.

I have absolutely zero service orientation but live absolutely under the authority of my owner, he calls all the shots without limit or condition, from where I sit that is being submissive. I live completely under his dominating influence. This is about power for him, service is a bennie he imposes upon me because he can...like he has used me as work horse for years, sent me back for my Master's degree so he could use me more effectively and make more money off me. Just last night he said he was debating between sending me for my Doctorate or sending me for my MBA, figuring which one would be most beneficial for him and make him the most over the long run.

The reason this isn't backwards is because he calls the shots, my owner wanted a slave that is primarily isolated, fully dependent on him, but still earns, as it is ass backwards to him to have property not earn for you. That is why he started a nursing agency and contracts me out as a nurse so he gets the money, and now has me teach online at the university where he is a Dean..he gets the money. He helped me start a thriving e-bay business, he gets the money. Service comes in many forms. Having all the responsibility and making all the decisions is cake and pie for him, he'd have it no other way.

You keep assuming that the owner wants something different from the property? That somehow the slave is demanding something? Certainly not in this household, as rightless chattel, isn't just paid lip service. If he didn't want me to live this way, I'd be living another way. I did my homework and found an owner whose vision matched my own. Isn't that what we tell people to do all the time on here?

So I'll ask you what if that is exactly what the owner wants is for the slave to have little responsbility, if he or she wants to make all the decisions, because that furthers the owners goals and make the owners life easier? For some people making all the decisions is not difficult or stressful, it is much more stressful for my owner to -not- make all the decisions. It isn't a drag or burden on him, the exact opposite is true.

So I guess both of us are being *served* by this dynamic, isn't that how it should be? Are your needs being served by your dynamic?



MagiksSlave -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 3:53:16 PM)

I wasnt talking about you spacifically!!! like I said its just my opinion and my thoughts on things. Personally though I dont care what others do as long as they dont do it to me! People all like different things but you cant expect because one likes something they all will and then procede to treat everyone that way. I really dont care to argue if your relationship works for you then great. What I ment by life skills was, not wanting or able to work or support themselfs and especting someone els to do it.

Magik's slave



BeingChewsie -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 6:05:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

I wasnt talking about you spacifically!!! like I said its just my opinion and my thoughts on things. Personally though I dont care what others do as long as they dont do it to me! People all like different things but you cant expect because one likes something they all will and then procede to treat everyone that way. I really dont care to argue if your relationship works for you then great. What I ment by life skills was, not wanting or able to work or support themselfs and especting someone els to do it.

Magik's slave



I'm not arguing believe me, I'm discussing. Adult discussion.

Those of us who live this way(and are lucky enough too in my view [;)] ) or wish too are by far a fraction of the D/s community, if you are being treated as something you dislike by dominants that is an issue with them not with a tiny fraction of the s-side of the community, you totally self-sufficient, call the shots chics outnumber us by quite a few.

I accept it is your opinion, but I'm missing how you came to hold it, if you are *submitting* to a dominating influence how exactly are you not being a sub? Since when does the motivation behind the action define the action?

Here is where we differ again:

Not wanting to work or support yourself doesn't mean you don't have the skills too(nor does it means that at the present moment you are not doing so). It very often just means you don't want too(most people are employable in some fashion). It would seem finding a dynamic in which the owner wanted you to be a stay at home slave who did not work would be the best fit for you. Women not working is really common here in this part of Newport Beach for instance, maybe that is why I see no issue with it. I understand you wouldn't want that but how does that mean they don't have the "life skills" to be employed and support themselves? Lots of well-educated, working women want to ultimately not work and stay home as well as unemployed women...some of both also happen to be submissive women looking for dominant partners.

If they are *not able* to work that seems to another whole kettle of fish and something beyond their control.

There are people out there who can't get out of their own way, I'll go with that. I think the number is so small as to be negligible when you consider the number of people who incorporate D/s into their lives in some fashion.

I have a lot of respect for women who say upfront they want to be stay at home slaves/subs/wives. It beats the heck of people who bad mouth the practice but would -leap- at the opportunity if it were an option for them and they could do so without any guilt in the relationship of their dreams.



juliaoceania -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 6:34:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

HMM very interesting back and forth and I have to say I agree and disagree with both points. I think personaly MY opinion is a sub that is a sub because they lack life skills and want to be taken care of arent in my opinion subs becuase then really who is searving who, if the Dom has to play parent to the sub isnt the sub really the one makeing the demands?? I dont know seems a little backwords to me cuz it seems that the Dom is searving the sub and all of the subs wants and needs to not have to have respionsability or take care of themselfs at all. I could be wrong but at this point it is how I see it.

Magik's slave


By your definition I am not a submissive, because when I serve my Daddy I am also serving myself. I am a submissive because 1)it is my nature 2) I enjoy it for the most part 3) it fulfills me. I am not a martyr. I am not a submissive for any other reason than I want to be. So, by your definition I am not a submissive because I am not doing it to serve him, but I am doing it to serve myself.. um, ok. I thought being submissive just meant that you give power, control authority, or whatever else you would like to call it, to someone else. I did not realize to be a twue sub slave we had to pass MagiksSlave's One Twue Motivation test.

I would guestimate (I know it is not a word, but work with me here) that most submissives submit because they like it, or need it, and it is mostly all about them, whether they are people pleasers, service fetishists, sexual subs, or those who need someone to take care of them to the extent that they would trade their sovereignty for some guidance. All submissives are trading their sovereignty for something. That something could be just the look of satisfaction they see in their dominant's eyes, but they are getting something out of what they do.

What you seek to do is to quantify what is the acceptable motivation to submit, and what is not... now it is your opinion, and you are welcome to it, I just do not happen to share it and I think it is a rather narrow opinion...



MagiksSlave -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/5/2007 11:34:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

HMM very interesting back and forth and I have to say I agree and disagree with both points. I think personaly MY opinion is a sub that is a sub because they lack life skills and want to be taken care of arent in my opinion subs becuase then really who is searving who, if the Dom has to play parent to the sub isnt the sub really the one makeing the demands?? I dont know seems a little backwords to me cuz it seems that the Dom is searving the sub and all of the subs wants and needs to not have to have respionsability or take care of themselfs at all. I could be wrong but at this point it is how I see it.

Magik's slave


By your definition I am not a submissive, because when I serve my Daddy I am also serving myself. I am a submissive because 1)it is my nature 2) I enjoy it for the most part 3) it fulfills me. I am not a martyr. I am not a submissive for any other reason than I want to be. So, by your definition I am not a submissive because I am not doing it to serve him, but I am doing it to serve myself.. um, ok. I thought being submissive just meant that you give power, control authority, or whatever else you would like to call it, to someone else. I did not realize to be a twue sub slave we had to pass MagiksSlave's One Twue Motivation test.

I would guestimate (I know it is not a word, but work with me here) that most submissives submit because they like it, or need it, and it is mostly all about them, whether they are people pleasers, service fetishists, sexual subs, or those who need someone to take care of them to the extent that they would trade their sovereignty for some guidance. All submissives are trading their sovereignty for something. That something could be just the look of satisfaction they see in their dominant's eyes, but they are getting something out of what they do.

What you seek to do is to quantify what is the acceptable motivation to submit, and what is not... now it is your opinion, and you are welcome to it, I just do not happen to share it and I think it is a rather narrow opinion...


I understand what you and BeeingChewsie are saying, but it isnt really what im getting at, you have both given me things to think about, its true I guess you can say both Dom and sub serve eachother in different way. And honestly if liveing that way makes you happy thats great, part of me would love to live like that too, but I also think that a greater part of me needs a little more room to be myself and make some of my own choices. And the main thing I think in this thread Im trying to say is we are adults not children we should be treated like adults untill WE have chosen as an adult to give that up! Oh heck I think Im confuseing myself!!

Magik's slave



MagikSwitch -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/6/2007 11:31:31 AM)

I have read some of the comments posted here in response to MagikSlave's post and while there were some good points made on both sides of the argument, there were also a number of attacks made on the original poster. These attacks were uncalled for and while the one from cjenny was the result of a hijacked profile, the others (and those who chose to reiterate the things said there) were uncalled for. By and large one of the reasons I do not post often is that these threads often turn into wars with people making comments for no other reason than to piss off or offend others. As a community it would be nice if we could actually discuss something without it turning into a viscious battle.



Celeste43 -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/6/2007 1:22:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

I think personaly MY opinion is a sub that is a sub because they lack life skills and want to be taken care of arent in my opinion subs becuase then really who is searving who, if the Dom has to play parent to the sub isnt the sub really the one makeing the demands?? I dont know seems a little backwords to me cuz it seems that the Dom is searving the sub and all of the subs wants and needs to not have to have respionsability or take care of themselfs at all. I could be wrong but at this point it is how I see it.

Magik's slave


But you don't know from here whether someone has life skills or not.

You also don't seem to understand that if the dom deliberately chooses to have a relationship where he is playing parent that he is not then serving, but instead having his needs met.

If he chose it because he likes this dynamic, then it is a dominant thing for him to do simply because he decided that this is what he wants in his relationship.

An act is not in and of itself dominant or submissive, it is the intent that decides that. If my back hurts and he rubs it, he is not suddenly submissive because he is taking care of me or serving my need. He is dominant because he decided to rub my back in order to have me back in shape as soon as possible.

When I tell him to go put on some sunscreen I am not being dominant despite that me giving him an order would appear as if this was the case. I am in fact following an order that is more important, to make sure he takes care of himself because he knows that left to himself he wouldn't remember the sunscreen and would be burnt and unhappy.

I offer these examples of things that appear opposite simply because an observer wouldn't know of the prior order or of his motivation.

But basically, if a dominant chooses to do something that makes his life work the way he wants it to, then he is dominant even if that same decision in your life would be disruptive.



MagiksSlave -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/6/2007 1:40:50 PM)

That is true Celest if the Dom choses that sort of relationship then it is what he wants. And as for not beeing able to tell here, well that was sort of my point.


and Master, thank You [:)]

Magik's slave



domiguy -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/6/2007 1:45:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

I think personaly MY opinion is a sub that is a sub because they lack life skills and want to be taken care of arent in my opinion subs becuase then really who is searving who, if the Dom has to play parent to the sub isnt the sub really the one makeing the demands?? I dont know seems a little backwords to me cuz it seems that the Dom is searving the sub and all of the subs wants and needs to not have to have respionsability or take care of themselfs at all. I could be wrong but at this point it is how I see it.

Magik's slave


If he chose it because he likes this dynamic, then it is a dominant thing for him to do simply because he decided that this is what he wants in his relationship.


Or he could just be a really, really needy guy or maybe he is the type of man that is so insecure that he couldn't stand to be with a woman that would ever queston his motivations, words or thoughts.....Micromanagement to me is a rather creepy concept.....So is taking care of a woman who chooses to defer every single thought unto me....But there is a lid for every pot...To each his own.....Fuckity, fuckity fuck.



juliaoceania -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/6/2007 2:34:21 PM)

 
quote:

you have both given me things to think about, its true I guess you can say both Dom and sub serve eachother in different way. And honestly if liveing that way makes you happy thats great, part of me would love to live like that too,


I am not micromanaged, he does not take care of my physical needs, I work outside my home, and I am HoH here at my casa... queen of my castle. I am stating that just because someone has others take responsibility for them does not mean that they are not submissive... I do not live that way myself...



existanceisyours -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/7/2007 9:37:21 AM)

the whole child relation thing for me is a no no after a good 15years of solid abuse as a child i do not want some silly lady thinking that the best way for her to belittle me is to call me boy, spent a hell of a long time not ever being said boy so whats the use someone saying i am now 



MagiksSlave -> RE: Sub/slave=child (6/7/2007 11:39:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: existanceisyours

the whole child relation thing for me is a no no after a good 15years of solid abuse as a child i do not want some silly lady thinking that the best way for her to belittle me is to call me boy, spent a hell of a long time not ever being said boy so whats the use someone saying i am now 


This is another good point. It can be very offensive to some to be called boy or girl or treated like a child at all so when people do it here not knowing the other person or their reactions to it it causes hostility. 

Though this isnt the whole beeing treated like a child thing I had an experiance along the same lines (basically beeing treated a way I didnt consent to beeing treated) one time I went into a chat room a BDSM one and the first words out of one of the "Dom" mouth was welcome C***. I HATE that word with a passion. He didnt know that, many subs love beeing called that by strang Doms in a chat room as a form of humiliation play. But I hadnt sighned on or constented to his humiliation play. If the man had taken time to get to know me he would have known I hate that word, and find it totally unexeptable. But him like so many others seem to beleave in the cookie cutter slave where whats good for one is good for them all and that all slaves should like or act the same way, while I agree that would make it really easy for a Dom to find a slave it isnt how it is so untill they make a BDSM related stepferd we are gunna have to do it the old fassioned way, by treating everyone curtiously when we meet them and only change our common manners when that person has consented to beeing treated any other way.(Or proven they dont desearve to be treated curtiously)

Magik's slave



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