RE: Reality Check (Full Version)

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AAkasha -> RE: Reality Check (6/2/2005 10:42:23 AM)

My main issue all along has been that your original statement suggested that "pro domination" (not "some scammers who use pro domme as their niche") is exploitive -- PERIOD. That is what *you* call a "sweeping generalization", right? Now, in this piece, finally you say:




quote:

There are those professional Dommes who have huge dungeons, like Irene Boss of Pittsburg. She offeres the highest end services imaginable to most male subs and she does have enormous overhead costs. She is extremely educated and renowned internationally for being a truly top notch player. She enjoys BDSM and charges $250 an hour, and that's absolutely as ethical as can be.



Oh, thank you for my making my point. Was that so hard?



quote:


Rarely....is $250 an hour justified. Very rarely. But have we seen any ProDommes who have a lesser rate?

I have never seen that.

Not once



Merc already pointed out one -- I'm not going to go do the research for you.





Akasha




realist -> RE: Reality Check (6/2/2005 12:02:56 PM)

I had expected a better response that a semantic claim of being right after all or that I had made some admission that you were right Aakasha.

Sure, I did admit that there are a few ProDommes that may well be justified in charging $250 per hour, and cited reasons why, but that hardly means the same as admitting that the industry standard of $250 an hour is justified and not exploitative.

You ignore a multitude of Scam-Dommes when I admit one, on the pinnacle of the spectrum, isn't a scammer, you ignore that the vast majority of professional domination is the most obvious money seeking the internet has to offer, and you ignore that a general statement I made is in fact quite legitimate because I admitted to one exception.

Would it be better if I said professional domination is largely exploitative? Almost always exploitative? How about that it's almost always priced in excess and is unfair and exploitative to male subs? How about if I said it's overwhelmingly a scam, but not universally in every single instance? Just 99% of the time. That is then a valid generalization.

Generalization does not mean universal statement. It means general.

Citing exceptions does not prove the rule. It proves the exception.

Generally, professional domination is a rip off, and exploitative. There are more ScamDommes charging the standard $250 per hour than legitimate ones with high overhead who charge a fee commensurate with what they have in expenses. The industry standard is not justified. The exceptions are justified and they are rare examples.

Is that better?

Your correction then, was trivial and did not prove my statement wrong.













realist -> RE: Reality Check (6/2/2005 12:18:36 PM)

quote:

So yes, you can get good domination for less than $200/hour. BTW - These rates are for either a Domme or submissive.

2 Hours $ 320
1 Hour 45 minutes $ 280
1 1/2 Hours $ 240
1 Hour 15 minutes $ 200
1 Hour $ 160
45 minutes $ 130
1/2 Hour $ 100
3 Lady Special $ 380 per hour
2 Lady 1 Hour Special $ 240
2 Lady 1/2 Hour Special $ 160
Fantasy Wrestling $ 130 per 1/2 Hour
Competitive Wrestling $ 200 per 1/2 Hour


First time I ever saw ProDomming for less than $250 per hour. Thanks Merc for posting that. [:)]

I live 3,000 miles from LA, I've never priced ProDomming for places I'll likely never go visit. I priced in my region only.

Still, though, it is expensive isn't it? Does that change my point that it's overly expensive in almost all cases? Is professional domination in general less exploitative because of this place Merc knows about and Irene Boss of Pittsburg? Do those exceptions make professional domination as a whole less exploitative and less overpriced and more ethical in general?

But I must give Merc his point here, there is now one place that I have heard of that does offer professional domination for less than $250 per hour.

I hope that becomes a trend, actually.





asissyforher -> RE: Reality Check (6/7/2005 4:22:26 PM)

Ever meet a 24/7 slave? There is no such thing.
realist?

i was a 24/7 slave, for 15 months in calif, from 03 to 04.
i took care of Her around the clock, for most of the entire day, from early dawn to late night. probably more like 18 or 19 hrs out of a day. my sleep as it were, was fitful, and not always a good night's rest. a lot of stress. when She is ill, there is no rest.

but maybe my experience was a minority to most?
but yes! i was a 24/7 slave. and some day i hope to be in another relationship wherein i am on call 24/7,..i like to serve, period! i love d/s.
thanks
asissy




DesertRat -> RE: Reality Check (6/7/2005 6:09:41 PM)

It is indeed possible to be 24/7 and live the Master/slave relationship in the real world. The fact that I am not playing with my slave all the time does not mean our relationship is not reality-based. In fact, going about and taking care of all life's little details while maintaining the context of the relationship it precisely what makes it real. My opinion.

Bob




asissyforher -> RE: Reality Check (6/21/2005 1:42:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

It is indeed possible to be 24/7 and live the Master/slave relationship in the real world. The fact that I am not playing with my slave all the time does not mean our relationship is not reality-based. In fact, going about and taking care of all life's little details while maintaining the context of the relationship it precisely what makes it real. My opinion.

Bob
[/quot
quote:

It is indeed possible to be 24/7 and live the Master/slave relationship in the real world. The fact that I am not playing with my slave all the time does not mean our relationship is not reality-based. In fact, going about and taking care of all life's little details while maintaining the context of the relationship it precisely what makes it real. My opinion.

Bob


==============
yes Sir. even if She and i went to a restaurant i always knew Whom was across the table, and i was reminded constantly. there was no off time. i am a 245/7/365 type of slave of SERVICE. i am not one of those that subscribe Sir to the sex and lovey dovey and so far no play..but i was 24/7/365 on call ...when the Ma'am is constantly sick there is no such thing as time alone. and i never had privacy anyway. i had no bedroom. i slept on the living room floor and the bathroom door was always open.....ZERO privacy -----so "I" know what serving IS, Sir.

thank You for Your input here.




ginger21 -> RE: Reality Check (6/21/2005 2:35:58 AM)

Aw shit, I thought this was dead. >_<




GoddessSasha -> RE: Reality Check (6/21/2005 2:59:48 AM)

LOL ginger I got bored of the troll by page six and jumped to here just to say

live and let live

fantasy is healthy

money issues have been done to death and we will never all agree so those of us who are sensible adults can agree to disagree

trolls live in caves or under bridges how on earth do they get access to the internet in the first place?

online is every bit as relevant as real life those of us who participate in BDSM online do so for our own reasons, if anyone wants to know why ask and if you have asked in a respectful non flaming way Im sure you will be told

one of the wonderful things about this site is many participant's ability to celebrate diversity not condemn it simply because it doesnt suit them

peace costs nothing war is damned expensive - tax payers become money subs

words on a screen are every bit as valid as any other communication, its the intention behind them that may not be

if you choose to buy a service you pay for that service whether it be of a sexual nature or nothing to do with sex , the person offering the service has the right to expect their value to be recognised and if they set their value at too high a price for you then dont use their service- or is that too simple?

Everyones perception of what constitutes a 24/7 relationship is different and those who see themselves as living that lifestyle in whatever context deserve the respect of everyone for their own definitions.

Putting people down because they dont subscribe to your beliefs and value systems doesnt make you a better person

quote:

I contend that online flamers behave so because in real life, people do to them just as I do, and fail to allow them their pretended status and fail to allow them transgressions of simple everyday real world good manners.


I trust you apply that to yourself too and to other trolls




MsKyln -> RE: Reality Check (6/22/2005 5:15:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kindred2Evil

The internet is a wonderful tool, it broadens the horizons and the mind in ways nothing has before it. You can talk with people on the other side of the earth with a click of a mouse...amazing.

It's also brought out the worst of humanity. Stalkers, rapists, murders all now have a way to find lil ole you much easier. Everything about you is posted somewhere, filed away in records etc etc.
Lovely thought hmm..

As far as this community goes, if you live your life on the net, never get out into the real world, what's the point of doing it? I have never, nor will I ever understand online D/s or S&M. Go ahead, get mad rant if you like, but the truth remains, how the hell do you control someone 1,000 miles away? If you're honest, you can't. I've met people off the net, and found them to be everything from polite to complete frauds. I wouldn't say the net has been bad for the community, as it does bring groups together, but it has it's flaws.
You can't say there is no such thing as 24/7, many couples live this way all the time, so I have to argue that. When you give up your home and move in, possibly marry your Dom/me or sub/slave, then what would you call it if not 24/7?? Some people give up their desire to work outside the home to be there 24/7. I see nothing wrong with that at all. If it works for you, great, if it doesn't, dont' throw rotten apples at the ones who do have it. You come across as bitter and jealous.
No one said a masochist had to give up anything. That's the difference between masochism and submission or slavery. It's about being true to yourself, to what you really want, to what you need to make your life feel complete.
I agree that in some respects the online community as such is a crock, but I also have to state there are real people here who live this way every day, who thrive in that environment. It's not for everyone granted, but again, if it works for you run with it.
You have fakes, wanna be's and newbies who get confused with the two all the time. The net offers excellent resources to those that may be just beginning this journey. This site let's all kinds of people come together, exchange ideas, potentially meet the one that completes them.
If you're just here to stir up shit, I hate it for you. I hate it that you feel the online community is a waste..to me it's not. It's no different than meeting a group of people, you have all kinds.
Hope this made sense, I was typing so fast it did in my head *laughs* Hope it does on paper.


Very Well Said {{{{{applause}}}}




sudja -> RE: Reality Check (6/26/2005 12:45:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

I don't know anyone who plays all the time.

I do know people, myself included, who live their dynamic at all times. Regarldess of how that dynamic looks to the outside world, it's always there and it doesn't go away. In my book, that is "24/7" though I don't claim that phrase because it has connotations I don't want.

I agree with you in part, however, I disagree that because we don't "play" at all times, our dynamic somehow goes away.

I -don't- give up my personal strenght. I do have a power dynamic with my partner that exists at all times, whether or not someone other than us can see it.


100% agree with all of the above.

sudja





lonewolf05 -> RE: Reality Check (6/26/2005 5:28:31 PM)

i am half serious philosophically, and half teasing.

"reality, like wow man. what a concept"

i am in the belief we all have different ideas and feelings of what OUR own little reality is.
besides the grocery store and the electric bill coming in.

but hey, just my little 2 cents.




cloudboy -> RE: Reality Check (2/25/2006 6:27:36 AM)

quote:

I suppose it's no different than if I posted at a UFO abductee forum and said I didn't think aliens were real. I don't think the online BDSM subculture is remotely realistic, but my life is. I do well at munches. I have never met one person from a munch who expected another to relocate, give up all assets, live a 24/7 sexlife, be a "true slave", or called typing a form of sex. I did meet one guy once who said Gor was a viable lifestyle. He got very upset when I asked him if I could pet his Larl kittycat.

People don't like it when you tell them their pretending is pretend.


You're right, generally people do not like having their illusions, hopes, and ideals either challenged or shattered.




cloudboy -> RE: Reality Check (2/25/2006 6:38:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FakeWantsMoney

CollarMe has deteriorated into a haven for desperate people milking others out of money. I can say with confidence that a large percentage of profiles are actually scams.


From what I've seen, 40%-65% of the height-weight proportionate femdoms here between the ages of 18-45 are PROs. That's not necessarily a "scam" but its not exactly what you expect/want from a personals site where you hope to find a real relationship. The ladies seem to complain that on the male side, there are a multitude of time-wasting wankers.

In relation to the OP, then, these are people who don't want to deal in reality or have actual, bonafide BDSM relationships. No, these are people out for a fix, be it money or a quick, salacious ejaculation, hence its no wonder their profiles turn off the folks he's advocating for.




cloudboy -> RE: Reality Check (2/25/2006 6:43:41 AM)


If r1 read this post, he'd spontaneously ejaculate.




cloudboy -> RE: Reality Check (2/25/2006 6:48:25 AM)

quote:

all the bitching you're doing


Classic, he makes a good, well thought out argument, and then get's characterized as "bitching." Some things never change.




Chaingang -> RE: Reality Check (2/25/2006 7:05:26 AM)

Not the expert here but...

Isn't it bad form to resurrect a dead thread of over 6 months ago and then quote people from it? What makes you think these people are still around to reply?

Why not just make your own comments in a new thread? One benefit is that the rest of us don't have to read 10 pages back to understand what you wish to say. As it stands, I haven't even read your 3-4 new comments here because I know I will not bother to try to understand the context for them (which may require reading 10 pages back - not gonna happen).

YMMV




cloudboy -> RE: Reality Check (2/25/2006 7:10:01 AM)

quote:

One person asked what can be done to remedy the problems I have outlayed in this thread. I am only too happy to attempt an answer.

1) Eliminate any ad asking for money, gifts, or services of value. Stop accepting the myth that exploitation is BDSM. Write these people and tell them you do not accept their actions as a part of our community.

2) Eliminate the quasi-prostitutional pro-Domme ads. Stop accepting the myth that $250 an hour is a "valuable service" or a valid part of the greater community. It's exploitation and it's damned bad press for BDSM in general.

3) Censor ads with extreme unrealistic and/or exploitative content. (ironically, this is done in regards to pictures, but not to absurdity, immorality, or illegality) (BTW, conning, scamming, etc IS illegal, and it is condoned here)

4) Encourage real world discussion where non-extreme-posing "lesser players" are welcomed, creating a welcoming atmosphere and an accepting, tolerant gathering space for BDSMers. Expose the "experts" as online posing frauds who can only behave that way online.

5) Censor flame posts. Ban flamers. Ban people for any statement that would not be welcome in your living room or your local munch, just like you do in real life.

6) Post crucial educational, scientific, and political information about BDSM and all forms of legitimate alternative sexualty and expose and exclude online mythology from that. Here's an example, in the latter regard: http://www.revisef65.org/

7) Make a formal statement that financial domination is exploitation and not a valid fetish and condemn it on moral grounds. Equate it with overpriced prostitution. Eliminate it or separate it from the BDSM community, not unlike how criminal scams are separated from legitimate investing opportunities.

8) Create a BDSM real-life forum section, symbolically dividing the community, for real world BDSMers. No absurd extremes, just simpler folk who prefer this form of sexuality, just like those who attend munches. Let this section grow and rival the online mythological larger, currently over-represented, group. Create a cadre of voices saying they enjoy real life BDSM and not online pretending, and all that comes with that.

9) Encourage and activate people who do not pose online in accordance with accepted extremist mythology. You.....you who are reading this. Have you enjoyed this discussion? Has it given you hope? Has it clarified what's bullshit and what ain't? If so, write me a note and say so. Start a thread of your own, say your piece. Do NOT just sit there and benignly, silently allow what you know is just online posery to go on and on and get stupider and more extreme and less real, while the world debates what the BDSM community is and whether what we do is immoral, illegal, a pathology, or a variant of acceptible human sexuality. Stand up, make some noise, get flamed.....and after you do that, you know what happens? You value your real world life even more than you did before you waded into the online maelstrom of defying the collectively pretended status quo. Make a place for you, and for us realists. Don't just shut up. Don't be maginalized. You are the majority. Represent that online, and contrast the lunacy of the ads this place is bombarded by. Sanity, honesty, realism, will stand out amongst the pretended content the internet allows far too much of.

That's....just for starters.


Sounds like a call for massive gov't intervention or in CM's case ---- enhanced oversight and moderation. The truth is, its best if individuals learn how to navigate for themselves. I agree with the sign posts you identify above, and you have done a public service pointing them out --- but I think your remedies are extreme. Individuals need to refine their own search skills, internet reality checks, and sense of other people. Instead of banning PROs, I'd like it more if CM could offer a filter so that if one was searching for a pro, he could separate them out and find them and visa versa.

As for flaming, I don't think there is anyway you can eliminate bad faith posting or the twisting of one's arguments made on a MB. Smart, conscientious people see what is going on --- and enhanced moderation merely assumes other's cannot defend themselves or spot who the idiots are. The problem with enhanced moderation on a MB is that good posters will start to experience censorship b/c they are being: a) too sarcastic; b) too "mean spirited"; or c) challenging the status quo or the holders of the status quo.

Sometimes posters need to rumble around in the mud and have a good ole dirty fight. Its not the end of the world or a MB when this happens, especially when one has blocking features at his disposal.






KatyLied -> RE: Reality Check (2/25/2006 7:10:13 AM)

He's into bumping threads.




bear372217355 -> RE: Reality Check (2/25/2006 7:19:47 AM)

Hey haven't you heard that's the new fetish for some. Be them sub or Dom/me, they love to punish all those that seem to not accept the company policy.

Albeit, some could draw less critasism by say not being so condemning




krys -> RE: Reality Check (2/25/2006 7:25:44 AM)

Come on everyone - sing along...

This is the thread that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends...




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