|
realist -> RE: Reality Check (6/2/2005 8:31:10 AM)
|
I'm happy to reply to your thoughts Akasha.
quote:
Not all male submissives are a vulnerable lot. Speak for yourself there. Many are capable of doing research and making intelligent decisions about how they spend their money, and they are satisfied with what they get for it.
Male subs have a statistically hard time finding dominant partners or play partners. Also, they defy gender role norms, and certainly this does make them vulnerable to social censure. Often, male subs have a strong outward, visible social life, and this is offset by an inner, non-visible, sexuality that is anything but those things. These men do not want to be known for their sexuality, they want to operate socially using their strengths, not their sexuality. These factors most likely incorporate the majority of male subs I imagine. These factors do indeed make them in general a vulnerable lot.
Being more specific, male subs who cannot obtain domination through any known social route, that is, those who want or need the highest discretion are tremendously vulnerable.....especially to exploitation. Because their choices are to live without it or pay way too much for it, they are easily taken advantage of. Hence, we see an average price of $250 per hour for professional domination.
Are these men satisfied with spending $250 per hour for professional domination? I'm not going to answer that since I'm not one of them. I will say though that if they are satisfied with such pricing, I find that utterly desperate on their part. I pity them.
And how exactly do you know they are satisfied with such pricing and obtained benefit? You do realise you spoke for all male subs who hire ProDommes don't you? From where did you get that sort of of sweeping fact?
That is your opinion, and it is not supported by fact. You merely made an assertion.
quote:
What per cent of professional dominants have no overhead? Give me an estimate in your opinion.
I've never taken a survey. Has anyone ever taken a survey on this question?
Since that question has no answer more valid than an opinion, let me adjust the question a bit.
What is the overhead cost of a professional dominatrix?
I have a nice collection of tools my wife and I enjoy playing with. The total cost is a few hundred dollars. Let's be generous and say a ProDomme would spend $1,000 minimum on neccesary toys and tools.
What is the overhead cost of playspace?
A ProDomme in South Carolina was operating out of her garage. Zero overhead there. Many ProDommes travel and play in hotel rooms, that overhead is roughly $100 to $200 depending on the hotel, but does the Domme pay for that or does the malesub? I wager that the malesub always does, with every ProDomme, in every case. Again, zero overhead costs for the ProDomme.
What about ProDommes who have dungeons? They spend as much as they want to, that it their investment and their decision. For a comparison, I cite fitness gyms, with many thousands of dollars of equipment, and their prices are a fraction of professional domination. You can get a membership to use gym facilities all you like for $250 (or less) a month. Compare that to $250 an hour, which ProDommes charge.
To get a professional fitness trainer, who is certified, with liability insurance, and college education, and had to spend thousands to obtain that education, that is roughly 50$ an hour.
Alternately, you can get a nurse, with a very expensive education, to perform medical treatments for you for less than $25 an hour.
I realise that dungeon play has an overhead cost. But it's not a whopping $250 an hour! Is most professional domination performed in an expensive setting, or is it performed in casual settings which have little or no overhead? What about those email Dommes? They have zero overhead and only a few minutes of their time and they charge $50 to $75 per email. That is a rip off as plain as day.
Regardless of overhead costs, the ProDomme rate remains universally $250 an hour.
quote:
You have a serious lack of understanding of what the pro domination scene is
How do you know what my level of understanding is?
How do you know I haven't read hundreds of ads and even contacted ProDommes? How do you know I haven't asked non-professional Dommes what they thought of $250 an hour for ass beatin'? (before you tell me ProDomming is not just about ass beatin', I make this statement because if a male sub wants an ass beating from a ProDomme, that's the rate for that, and it's a ripoff.)
I have been a sub for all my adult life, why do think I don't know the facts?
I have read a great deal in all those years.
quote:
You have a serious lack of understanding of what the pro domination scene is, and instead focus on scam artists and bad eggs that will rip off any industry if they can; they are a small percentage of the OVERALL pro femdom market. They are probably simultaneously ripping off others on the net in OTHER ways.
Now you are claiming to possess overall knowledge of the entire professional domination market. How do you know it's just a "small percentage of the OVERALL pro femdom market"? How do you know most ProDommes have overhead dungeon and/or staff costs high enough to justify the $250 an hour average?
No one knows these percentages. Not you and not I either.
I agree with your point that there's scammers in every industry. However, where online do we find any....any....complaint that scammers are in our midst in the BDSM community?
Zero.
Hence, I make my point via this thread and with this discussion.
quote:
Also, do you think that someone who makes $250/hr pro domming works 8 hrs a day? How many hrs a week do you think?
No. I think they have "vanilla" jobs and this is just an extra money source. The number of hours they work per week as not knowable unless a survey is done. It would vary by region, urban versus rural would be a potent variance inducing variable, just to cite one quick example.
Because these ProDommes do have dayjobs, even professions, and have income already, their financial need in regards to their male sub clientelle is even less justified at the average $250 an hour rate.
quote:
And, how much repeat business do the scam artists make, the ones that really are faking it?
Excellent question this is.
By faking it, I take it you mean those ProDommes just in it for the profit and not in it because they enjoy domination. These would be women who would not play with a given man, no matter what the chemistry or compatibility unless payment is made.
These ProDommes, it is easy to see, do stay in business, and actively seeking male subs are not a huge market, thus we can conclude that repeat business is a mainstay of this industry. What we can glean from that is that male subs do indeed pay these sums and continue to do so for extended periods of time.
This then directly exploits the obvious vulnerabilities male subs have. It exploits the statistical fact that there are fewer female dominants than male subs, the fact that many male subs need discretion, that many malesubs desire specific forms of play and don't know how to find appropriate play partners. All of this conspires to create the climate where $250 an hour has become the average price for what many other non-money-seeking dominant women do for free, because they enjoy it.
Free of charge versus $250 an hour.
That....is the difference between BDSM enjoyment and scamming.
There are those professional Dommes who have huge dungeons, like Irene Boss of Pittsburg. She offeres the highest end services imaginable to most male subs and she does have enormous overhead costs. She is extremely educated and renowned internationally for being a truly top notch player. She enjoys BDSM and charges $250 an hour, and that's absolutely as ethical as can be.
And there are a thousand other Dommes with none of that sort of equipment, no overhead, doing email domination only, or chatroom domination, or even less than that, who possess little or no education about BDSM and little or no experience as well, and they charge as much as Irene does.
That's scamming.
There are more scammers than legit ProDommes it would appear. I don't really care about the exact numbers, the point is that the entire range of money seeking dominants out there are awash in a sea of scammers claiming to be legit also.
Rarely....is $250 an hour justified. Very rarely. But have we seen any ProDommes who have a lesser rate?
I have never seen that.
Not once.
quote:
And, do you believe the rip off pro femdoms do it for a living? That is all the income they make?
Scam-Dommes have regular jobs. They just do it for the extra cash.
I am surprised that some ProDommes don't lower prices, in a competitive market, you'd think someone out there would try to hedge against higher end Dommes and get a larger piece of the male sub market.
Of course, there are those 1-900 phoneline Dommes, what, $5 a minute?
For talking.
Tell me that's not a scam.
quote:
You also never addressed the point I made regarding other "consultation" that costs $250/hr. I gave you an example and you ignored it.
I am not a heavy internet user. I make time to come here to this thread. I do not ignore people, I do my best to reply as time permits. This thread got much larger than I anticipated and I cannot adequately reply to everyone or every good point. Several posters have made excellent comments and I just can't reply to them all. My apologies for that.
I have thought about this consultation point of yours. I said earlier "show me any service worth $250 an hour". Perhaps that phrasing was not precise enough. I meant (but admit I didn't say specifically enough) a personal service, like fitness training, massage therapy, tattoos maybe, yoga or Tae Chi instruction. Some service comparable to professional domination.
Your example of high end consultation is vague, but I'll still address it. Does such consultation service comprise multiple employees? Field research? Licensing and insurance? Corporate status? Travel? Advanced degree college education? Office upkeep? Vehicles? Special tools?
For $250 an hour, you get quite an arsenal of competence and guaranteed accurate information from a professional consultant don't you. That is not comparable at all to professional domination which has little or none of those sorts of overhead costs or background considerations.
One thing I am sharply critical of in online subculture (not just BDSM online subculture, all of them in general) is collective pretending. How many people here will post that professional domination is akin, or equated to in some way, to high end consultations services? Spanking compared to oil reserve measurement 1,500 feet below the surface? That's their equation?
It's pretty easy to call that less than realistic. I call it pretending.
quote:
And you also did not address the point I made about why don't we all charge $25 an hour if we love what we do?
Why, indeed, don't you?
I suspect it's becuase you don't have to. You can get $250 an hour because male subs are in an easy to exploit position. There's no market consideration that forces you to adapt and lower rates competitively. Male subs will pay that rate and ProDommes, who seek money far more than the BDSM component, will not lower their prices, and do not lower their prices.
Is there one discount Domme on Earth?
It's just extra money for most of them from an easy to exploit source prone to repeat business.
The male sex drive is powerful, it renews often, it is lifelong. Hell of a way to make a buck eh?
quote:
The problem I see with your statements is that they show such a complete lack of understanding of a marketplace yet you claim to be an expert
I have never claimed to be any sort of expert whatsoever. You cannot post anything I have said that would justify your accusation here. That is an unsupported assertion, again.
You have no idea what level of education and awareness I have of the marketplace in regards to professional domination or the marketplace in general.
quote:
and I know it would simply take some short research on your part to find out how much you are wrong.
But you post zero evidence in support of this claim.
If the research is so brief, why do you not post it?
Please post professional domination priced less than $250 an hour. Post domination services provided by just one ProDomme who does so because she knows many men thirst for it and have trouble finding it. Show me one ProDomme out there who offers services only because she wants male subs to experience fulfillment. For less than $250 an hour, that is.
I only ask for one example.
We all know I can post hundreds of examples of money seeking half-assed ScamDommes.
quote:
You won't do that though. And, I think a lot of your claims are the same way -- based on your own ideas, with no real facts to back them up.
I have supplied numerous facts in this thread. I posted an article by Dorothy Hayden. I posted several Collarme.com ads that were directly money related and obvious scams. I have used many common sense arguments because people do often find collectively agreed upon facts in them. For example, in regards to the online 24/7 claim, I argued that mere concentration induces a singular mindset and other, purportedly 24/7 considerations are not and cannot be present during such times, hence the 24/7 claim cannot be taken literally. That is arguing with factual backing Akasha.
I have asked you for facts Akasha, and if you post facts contrary to any position I currently hold, I will learn, and retract any errors I've made. I always let fact guide me. I also, just like every human being, have my own ideas, and I have steadfastly shown here in this thread that I do emply fact. If I had ever seen a ProDomme ad for less than $250 an hour, I would not have made the claim that I never have seen such an ad. I even asked you to post an ad like that and prove me wrong. I not only use fact to support my own arguments, I also openly seek fact contrary to any argument I might have. I've been wrong countless times, each one was a learning experience. I rather enjoy that, actually.
Rather humble and honest of me is it not?
Your assertion that I am a self-proclaimed expert is wholly invalid then, Akasha.
And....these are just my opinions. I'm not telling everyone online they need to be more like me or that I am universally correct. I think online subculture has problems and weaknesses. How can addressing and discussing them be a bad thing?
Have a good day [:)]
|
|
|
|
