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RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 7:44:02 AM

Faramir

Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline

Holy Mackerel--MadRabbit is on a mothahfuckin' tear in this thread. Preach it, brothah!!!

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 41

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 7:49:24 AM

jauntyone

Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline

Greetings

I don't "deal" with BDSM/24/7 in regards to 'vanilla' issues.

I am a slave. I am a slave all day, every day, 365 days a year. There is no 'vanilla' to deal with.

I wish you well

melissa

(in reply to Masterspetbri)

Post #: 42

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 7:55:42 AM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teachme59

Hello LuckyAlbatross

I don’t see any difference in hiding and politely discreet/irrelevant to the relationship.

It is the point I am trying to make… we are not normal… really… but neither are we bad or nasty. We just all need to hide parts of our lifestyles from those we love. If you have no one to love in this world then God bless you.

Butch

There is a world of difference between confessing every dark detail of your BDSM life to your mother and allowing her access to things which may inform her you have out of the ordinary tastes.

I would never tell my close family intimate details of the Ds relationships I have been in, nor would I tell them my fantasies in lurid detail. Its just not appropriate. My brother does not tell our parents ever detail about his sex life with his wife, why should I fill mine in on what i get up to.

That said my family are not stupid, they have met some of my partners, and only the exceptionally dumb could have missed that fact that my "type" is older men with dominant personalities, who tend to be very controlling and influential in my life. When people come to my house and see me sit at my partners feet, or look carefully at the art work they can easily make the connection if they understand what it is they are looking at.

In my life the clues are there for anyone who wishes to see them, many do see them and it rings no bells. I am not going to be going out there informing people about the details of my life choice because its none of their business and they probably dont wish to know, just as i dont wish to know about theirs.

Private lives and private, public lifes are public. I really dont want to know about other peoples private lives unless its something they wish to share with me as an imtimate friend. I extend the same courtesy to others, they have no business knowing about the intimate details of my life, so I make sure that i lead my life as I want to yet maintaining as discrete a dynamic as possible.

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to Teachme59)

Post #: 43

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 7:55:53 AM

Teachme59

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline

Hello MsParados

All fathers worry about their children all the time as well… and I don’t think the world I am painting is much different than yours. Be assured I don’t think you or your parents were sexual deviants. I do however believe your, and my lifestyle, is not the norm.
Normal or abnormal is not a derogatory term… it just means how much you significantly deviate from the average. We sure do that.
Butch

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 44

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 8:08:42 AM

Teachme59

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline

Hi susie

I could be but I don’t think I am mixing protocols and lifestyle choices. I believe one is the necessary result of the other, at least in part.
Butch

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 45

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 8:37:08 AM

Teachme59

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline

Hello Madrabbit

You say that I have lost perspective but then you spend the next few hundred words proving that very same perspective.

Paragraph after paragraph saying what you don’t do because of your lifestyle.

I have never used the words personal shame or self-acceptance… maybe that strikes a nerve with you not with me.

I have not called anyone a … perverted and flawed BDSM freak. What I said was the “Norm” would think that of us and since the Norm controls this world that cannot be ignored. It must be dealt with and I believe the OP was asking how.

I could be wrong…. but I do believe as a whole mothers and fathers would be shamed of OUR lifestyle. They would fear for us as skydivers or racecar drivers but I don’t think on the whole they would feel any shame.

The fact they would feel the shame is their problem… not right or wrong just the way it is. I am a realist and I will address life as it is not as I want it to be.
Butch

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 46

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 9:04:29 AM

EvilGeoff

Posts: 523
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teachme59

I could be wrong…. but I do believe as a whole mothers and fathers would be shamed of OUR lifestyle. They would fear for us as skydivers or racecar drivers but I don’t think on the whole they would feel any shame.

The fact they would feel the shame is their problem… not right or wrong just the way it is. I am a realist and I will address life as it is not as I want it to be.
Butch

Hi Butch,

You are missing the point everyone here is trying to make. We're saying that what we do and when we do it is based on what we find appropriate for the given situation. We do not whip our submissives on the front lawn any more than your vanilla gay neighbors do "69" on the front lawn or the het couple next door get their doggy-style freak on in the front yard.

Engaging in appropriate behavior is not hiding, it's not "keeping a secret" - it's being respectful of others, it's being considerate, it's being dignified.

Most adult children don't talk to their parents about their vanilla sex lives. Why in the world would being a kinkster make any diference in that? WTF dude? Our sex lives are PRIVATE, vanilla or kinky. We feel comfortable sharing that part of our lives with some people, and not with others. Being kinky has nothing to do with that, it's a matter of intimacy and closeness.

The clowns on Jerry Springer and Maury excepted of course.

bri to answer YOUR question... You and your partner can figure out what's appropriate for what situations. High Leather Protocol events are to the BDSM world what "Black Tie" events are in the vanilla realm. Fun to attend now and then, but they'd get to be a PITA if you did them every night. There are little things you can do and say in plain site, in front of Mom & Dad and the kids and everyone that says "I love him, he means the world to me, he owns me heart, body, and soul." that no one will think ill of. Think of things that perhaps you saw your grandmother doing for your grandfather. Call your partner "Sir" (and you can say it with a little "snap" that makes that capital S heard!), sit at his feet with your cheek on his knees while watching TV and he runs his fingers through your hair. They see sweet and romantic. You and he see slave at Master's feet.

Y'all can figure it out, it ain't rocket science! Use common sense and y'all will do fine.

YIK,
- Geoff

(in reply to Teachme59)

Post #: 47

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 9:06:53 AM

MasterNdorei

Posts: 658
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline

Life is life. What makes me a 24/7 slave is that i approach things differently than i did before becoming enslaved. My perceptions are different. i see power, and power struggles differently. i look at services and those who provide them, from a different perspective. My intentions have changed. You may see me rise to make dinner as i have a zillion times before being enslaved, but now my goal is to prepare and serve a meal that honors Master in every way. i may still buy groceries, stop off at the dry cleaners, and fill the car with gas, but my thoughts about doing these things are different when i am answering to Him at the end of my day. My actions are altered to honor Master. The words i chose are different when i speak, my voice and reflections are better measured than before i was enlaved. i wear make up and clothing that pleases Him in public, instead of dressing as is comfortable for me. My reactions are also different. i am more reflective, and less likely to have all the knee jerk reactions i once had. i am less likely to step into drama. Master has certain protocols that do not change, regardless of our being in public. He will always be the first to begin eating. My eyes will always be lower than His as i serve Him. (In public i may whisper something to Him as i place His drink before Him, or kiss His cheek, or feign dropping something to make it less obvious.) i will not walk in front of Him. He will guide our conversations. The lists of public protocols for His household goes on and on. It is the little things, the nuances of service and expressions of my place that keep it real in front of the vanilla public. It is being always mindful of Who i serve that keeps me in tune with our dynamic 24/7. Master's dorei

(in reply to Owned1)

Post #: 48

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 9:19:32 AM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teachme59

Hello Madrabbit

You say that I have lost perspective but then you spend the next few hundred words proving that very same perspective.

Paragraph after paragraph saying what you don’t do because of your lifestyle.

I have never used the words personal shame or self-acceptance… maybe that strikes a nerve with you not with me.

I have not called anyone a … perverted and flawed BDSM freak. What I said was the “Norm” would think that of us and since the Norm controls this world that cannot be ignored. It must be dealt with and I believe the OP was asking how.

I could be wrong…. but I do believe as a whole mothers and fathers would be shamed of OUR lifestyle. They would fear for us as skydivers or racecar drivers but I don’t think on the whole they would feel any shame.

The fact they would feel the shame is their problem… not right or wrong just the way it is. I am a realist and I will address life as it is not as I want it to be.
Butch

Actually I am not sure that my parents would be shamed by my lifestyle. Why should they be? At the moment they are really happy that I have found and live with a partner that cherishes, protects and loves me. Someone that wants me to be the best that I can be and strives to help me get to that point. Yes he controls me and they see some of that and they see that I do everything that I can to make his life as easy and happy as possible. They see that as me loving him.

What they don't see and what I do not discuss with them is the fact that when he is displeased with me he takes his belt to me. Perhaps to some that is not normal. One of my friends spends 2 weekends a month going to wife swapping parties and spends the weekend with a different man while her husband spends the weekend with another woman. Do you think her parents would be less shamed by her lifestyle choice than mine would be by mine? She does not tell her parents the details of what she gets up to either.

The whole thing comes down to being discrete and nothing to do with shame. Sometimes a lot of the confusion over 24/7 comes from those that more into S&M. I met a Dom and chatted to him before I met my Master and have continued to chat with him over the last couple of years. He is in a vanilla marriage and his only chance to "play" is once every 6 months or so when he goes on a business trip. So his experience of being with a submissive is full on extreme play for the whole time he is with her (24 hours maximum). Whenever we chat he always asks if Master has beaten me that day, or chained me up. His view of 24/7 is his 24 hours everyday. He cannot see that this is not all there is to a M/s relationship. Others sometimes see only the physical aspects of D/s or M/s and assume that to be 24/7 there must be something physical taking place.

(in reply to Teachme59)

Post #: 49

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 9:37:01 AM

Teachme59

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline

EvilGeoff….I respectfully disagree… Like most people I tend to dig in and fight when I believe my view of the universe is being challenged. I think you are digging in as well.
However if I bang my head against a wall long enough it will begin to sink in that this behavior is not productive.
I do understand what you are telling me…. but you don’t seem to understand I am not arguing against what you are saying. You keep saying what you do and feel, I understand that. What I am talking about is what I believe others outside the lifestyle think and how to deal with that.
Butch

(in reply to susie)

Post #: 50

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 9:44:42 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teachme59

Hello Ncontrolofu

It is only bull as a generality….in your particular case it may be the truth. BUT…. It would be hard for me to believe that you, or anyone else reading this, does not hide parts of their life from people around them. If you are so adamant and secure in your “REAL lifestyle…. then why hide anything. I think the OP would like advice on how to deal with the REALITY of HER situation. Not a diatribe on how she is all wrong in her perception of BDSM

And yes you are excused and I also ask you to excuse me. I don’t mean to be so confrontational … like you I am just trying to encourage comment and honesty

Butch

There are certain things in this world that people don't need to know, don't want to know and informing them will serve no purpose other then your own ideals without actually doing any good.

In that case, being "completely out and honest" is a selfish act that doesn't gain anybody anything except a lot of awkward conversations.

My parents do not need to know that I'm a pet. Most of my friends know. Some of my teachers know. My parents know that I buy a lot of sex toys. But when they are around, Valyraen is much more discreet with his orders and refrains from slapping me.

Telling them about what we do would be selfish. It would trouble them without reason. Just as I have no desire to hear what they are doing in the bedroom and think of my parents as sexual beings, they have no desire to think of me as a sexual being.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Teachme59)

Post #: 51

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 9:48:32 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teachme59
What I am talking about is what I believe others outside the lifestyle think and how to deal with that.
Butch

I'm not sure what you mean here really.

I did come out to my sister when I was 19. I was stupid and selfish and needing someone in my family to be out to so I picked her. She said it was just a phase I was going through, was a little weirded out by me always being with older men, but as the years went on, it just became a non-issue with us. She cared much more about whether I was available for free babysitting than what type of relationship I was in.

My point is always that you don't need sex toys, you don't need discrete tugs on the hair, discrete nods to eachother, a small symbol worn- you don't need ANY external shows of who you are together to BE who you are together. It's not any of the rules, it's not any of the protocols, it's not any of the clothes or symbols or fuzzy warm names we call eachother that make us who we are or what our relationship is.

It's just us.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Teachme59)

Post #: 52

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 9:51:05 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

My point is always that you don't need sex toys, you don't need discrete tugs on the hair, discrete nods to eachother, a small symbol worn- you don't need ANY external shows of who you are together to BE who you are together. It's not any of the rules, it's not any of the protocols, it's not any of the clothes or symbols or fuzzy warm names we call eachother that make us who we are or what our relationship is.

It's just us.

Bingo.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 53

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 9:52:55 AM

Teachme59

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline

Hi again Susie… thank you for the response…and a good one to boot. I am so glad you have found your soul mate. You seem to be fulfilled and happy and that is not easy in any lifestyle.

I’d just like to mention a few lines in your post.

First….. Actually I am not sure that my parents would be shamed by my lifestyle. Would it make a difference if they were? I think it would therefore you don’t bring it up…nothing wrong with that, why take a chance on hurting them. Now if in the future a full revelation is unavoidable then all you can do is tell them you are happy and ask that they support you and hope they are not hurt or afraid.

Second…..What they don't see and what I do not discuss with them is the fact that when he is displeased with me he takes his belt to me. This tells me that you do fear their reaction if they were to learn this…so you hide it from them… exactly and only what I am trying to say…We all do it to one extent or another.
Butch

(in reply to Teachme59)

Post #: 54

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 10:07:35 AM

susie

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teachme59

Hi again Susie… thank you for the response…and a good one to boot. I am so glad you have found your soul mate. You seem to be fulfilled and happy and that is not easy in any lifestyle.

I’d just like to mention a few lines in your post.

First….. Actually I am not sure that my parents would be shamed by my lifestyle. Would it make a difference if they were? I think it would therefore you don’t bring it up…nothing wrong with that, why take a chance on hurting them. Now if in the future a full revelation is unavoidable then all you can do is tell them you are happy and ask that they support you and hope they are not hurt or afraid.

Second…..What they don't see and what I do not discuss with them is the fact that when he is displeased with me he takes his belt to me. This tells me that you do fear their reaction if they were to learn this…so you hide it from them… exactly and only what I am trying to say…We all do it to one extent or another.
Butch

I think you miss the point. I do not discuss my sex life with my parents nor do I discuss it with my friends. I am an adult and do not feel the need to share with my parents what I and my Master do in private and how we live our lives. Not only do I not discuss the fact that he uses his belt on me but I also do not discuss the state of my bank account with them or terms of my mortgage. I don't expect them to tell me the last time they had sex or whether Mum has ever given Dad a blow job. It is private to them just as my relationship with my Master is private to me. All they know is that I am contented, settled and happier than I have ever been in my life.

I think you mistake discretion for fear of their reaction.

(in reply to Teachme59)

Post #: 55

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 10:10:32 AM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

My point is always that you don't need sex toys, you don't need discrete tugs on the hair, discrete nods to eachother, a small symbol worn- you don't need ANY external shows of who you are together to BE who you are together. It's not any of the rules, it's not any of the protocols, it's not any of the clothes or symbols or fuzzy warm names we call eachother that make us who we are or what our relationship is.

It's just us.

good point, excellently made, as always

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 56

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 10:12:01 AM

Teachme59

Posts: 47
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline

Nope susie I don't..the same thing just by different words

(in reply to susie)

Post #: 57

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 10:16:17 AM

peepeegirl5

Posts: 214
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline

(weird sounds)

As we live a life of ease,
Everyone of us is all we need (is all we need)
Sky of blue (sky of blue) and sea of green (sea of green)
In our yellow (in our yellow) submarine (submarine. Blaaaha)

_____________________________

"If we value so highly the dignity of life, how can we not also value the dignity of death? No death may be called futile." - Yukio Mishima

(in reply to susie)

Post #: 58

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 10:20:37 AM

goodgirl85

Posts: 221
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ennaozzie

Personally I don’t see how you can combine a home life with your work life or what your sexual preferences has to do with work life, or what your sexual preferences have to do with your children’s school or child care centre, it’s impossible to keep it all as one thing.

We all have separate lives within our life, a home life, our personal life, our work life, our family life, and maybe other parts again, sure those in the lifestyle would like to combine as much as possible, but to be 24/7 in all areas of your life I don’t believe is possible.

beanie

I don't know if you have children or not, but sexual preference and/or lifestyle has a lot to do with children. For instance those children whose parents are gay/lesbian - do you not think that they get a lot of ridicule at school?

The same goes for a lifestyle like this, if a teacher were to over hear a child telling a friend that his daddy punished his mommy for not having her chores done then well do you think nothing will happen? There would be an investiagation and the such involved -if the teacher did her duty and reported it.

I found it rather easy, in the relationship that I was in to incorprate my D/s life into my vanilla life. Its just another aspect of the wonderful world we live in. Yes, you have to be smart and a little quick to try and incorpate everything together.

For instance, at a friends house one day, I sat on the floor beside my Ex who was sitting on an empty couch. He asked why I sat on the floor, and even caught off guard, I quickly said its better for my back. If I had said, well Master prefers me to sit on the floor beside him, I would have gotten some weird looks and some bruises later on.

The one vanilla person I told the true nature of my relationship with... well lets just say we are no longer friends. She even threatened to tell everyone about it, she said because she was concerned for me.

In addition, my family consists of Roman Catholic conservatives. I mean my grandmother can't even understand how can I wear a shirt to bed one week, and the next wear it for the day. How would she ever understand that I am involved in the BDSM lifestyle.

For me its simple, I can subtly serve my Master (if i had one) in public with a few changes to normal routine. Instead of calling him Daddy or Sir, you simple dont say his name, or call him another term of endearment, or anything else you have agreed on. And as far as play time goes.... well you dont want everyone knowing what goes on behind those bedrooms anyway.- kink or not involved. Just like you woulnt want your child to walk in you when you are having "regular" sex anymore than you would when mommy is tied up and Daddy, is pouring wax on her, and whipping her with a belt.

Its very much the same time, this whole BDSM and Vanilla thing. with just a few different twists. Yeah sometimes us subs have to be creative when given a "task" or assignment that has to carry over into theoutside world of ignorance. But again, this is also something that shouldnt be done lightly. Something that has been discussed, and the sub has been given the right to refuse.

girl

(in reply to ennaozzie)

Post #: 59

RE: BDSM vs Vanilla - The Real World - 5/28/2007 10:20:38 AM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teachme59

Hello Madrabbit

You say that I have lost perspective but then you spend the next few hundred words proving that very same perspective.

Paragraph after paragraph saying what you don’t do because of your lifestyle.

I have never used the words personal shame or self-acceptance… maybe that strikes a nerve with you not with me.

I have not called anyone a … perverted and flawed BDSM freak. What I said was the “Norm” would think that of us and since the Norm controls this world that cannot be ignored. It must be dealt with and I believe the OP was asking how.

I could be wrong…. but I do believe as a whole mothers and fathers would be shamed of OUR lifestyle. They would fear for us as skydivers or racecar drivers but I don’t think on the whole they would feel any shame.

The fact they would feel the shame is their problem… not right or wrong just the way it is. I am a realist and I will address life as it is not as I want it to be.
Butch

As EvilGeoff said, I'm afraid you are missing the point entirely.

You have been taking the stance that we are our the persceuted witches of our time and need to hide because people view the lifestyle as a bad and perverted thing.

I spent the 300 words of my little essay trying to show the exact opposite.

All the things I said I DONT do had nothing to do with whether I was BDSM or not, they are just the same respectful actions and social courtesies that I would adhere to with a vanilla sex life.

The notion that we are persecuted witches who are feared by all of society is a bit outdated by our time. Taking the stance that all BDSM should be talked about under cloak and dagger and performed at midnight in the middle of the lonely woods in the secert hidden leather cave is only hurting things...for yourself and for everyone.

If you create large hidden gaps in your life that no one has any idea what are about, they will begin to wonder and speculate and the conclusions they will draw will be far more scary and fearful then the truth. By taking special precautions to hide from people, your giving them a reason to be afraid of you...because you might be a pedophile or a serial rapist or an axe murderer.

As everyone here as said, as long as you take a normal degree of respect for those around you and use common sense to adhere to normal appropriate behavior, you can live a life that is accepted and normal without creating huge hidden gaps that only cause people to wonder "Where exactly is he going? What exactly is he doing?"

I did in fact sit down and talk with my father regarding my personal relationships and my participation in local BDSM events, because by attempting to hide it, he was noticing the gaps and vagueness of my explanations. And the conclusions he was drawing were not even close to the truth...that I was, in fact, gay!!!!

Now that he knows for a fact, all I simply do is keep the same appropriate and respectful attitude that any child does with their parent regarding their sexual life and intimate relationships and we get along perfectly fine without any fear or shame. Yes, sometimes he worries, thanks to the latest episode of Special Victims Unit, but reassurance and rational explanations from me end that.

True you did not say the words "personal shame and self acceptance", but to be frankly honest, reading your viewpoints and your stance on things compared to everyone elses in this thread, I feal the real issue you have is in fact your own fealings of personal shame and lack of self acceptance regarding the things that you do.

P.S. I hope you and T3WD are doing great, EvilGeoff. I wish circumstances in my life were different and I could travel up there to take part in some of the events.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 5/28/2007 10:26:25 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Teachme59)

Post #: 60

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