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[Poll]

golliwogs - racially offensive?


I'm black/Afro-Caribbean; I find them offensive
  7% (3)
I'm black/Afro-Caribbean; I dont find them offensive
  4% (2)
I'm not black/Afro Caribbean; I find them offensive
  36% (15)
I'm not black/Afro-Caribbean; I dont find them offensive
  51% (21)


Total Votes : 41
(last vote on : 8/12/2007 7:50:26 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 8:41:01 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tatangel

The ''I am right, therefore you are wrong'' attitude kills me. I don't know if that was where you were going or not, so I really wanted to be clear on my stance. Sorry if it came off as bitchy.


It's not that you came off as bitchy. It is more like you couldn't at all understand why some one could or possibly should be offended by it.

quote:

tatangel
My family is German, does that make me a Nazi? Of course not. This guy had a sticker on his car from a 1700's childrens' book and that makes him a racist? WTF ever.


Ok so lets say that your hobby is collecting memoribilia of the German S.S. and  because you love your hobby...You chose to put one of your beloved swastikas in the back window of your car....Why should anyone care or be offended...Right?



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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 8:55:51 PM   
marieToo


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Status: offline 		FR: 

Nothing in and of itself can be uniformly defined as "offensive" to all people. 

Feeling offended by something or someone is a personal choice that, at the end of the day, only affects the offendEE.



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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 8:59:44 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		It's not that simple.  Symbols aren't neutral, and intent is rarely neutral.  Usually when people display symbols that offend others, they do it with precisely that intent.  Not always, but usually.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 9:08:50 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It's not that simple.  Symbols aren't neutral, and intent is rarely neutral.  Usually when people display symbols that offend others, they do it with precisely that intent.  Not always, but usually.


And neither are racial caricatures of people...It's kind of one of the reasons you see so few folks walking around in black face anymore....Oh for the good ol' days.

Edited to add....Is it racially offensive for a white dude to have Pac as his avatar?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 5/31/2007 9:10:00 PM >

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 9:14:12 PM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It's not that simple.  Symbols aren't neutral, and intent is rarely neutral.  Usually when people display symbols that offend others, they do it with precisely that intent.  Not always, but usually.


"Symbols" are subjective, and "intent" is hardly something that can be proven, and things that "offend" others is a variable.  Therefore the statement highlighted in red cannot be taken as a fact.  
What will offend one person wouldn't offend another.  The differing viewpoints in this thread are a display of that.  Who cares what someone's intent is if they give you the middle finger, for instance?  You can choose to be offended and report them for sexual harassement, or you can shrug it off.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 9:42:13 PM   
marieToo


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Status: offline 		He shoulda been back by now with some links and stats.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 5/31/2007 10:50:43 PM   
BBBTBW


Posts: 836
Joined: 5/21/2004
Status: offline 		I have seen pictures of the golliwogs but didn't know what they were called.  It smacks of throwing antiquated attitudes back in the faces of us that have gotten past them. 

I see them as a symbol of racial degredation. 

Why is it that people think it is alright to continue to degrade Black People and are suprised when we are offended and rise against it?

Is it cool to proudly display a swastika in your automobile window or any other symbol of racial degredation?

Why are Black People always supposed to look the other way?  Is it because we now have a loud voice and dare anyone to sick the dogs on us or spray the power hoses to keep us in line?  

So yes Lady Ellen, it is offensive. 

I mean, come on.  Let's move forward and make a new existance. 

For those of you that don't get it or don't see the big deal, the KKK is still alive as well as other racially motivated hate groups.  If we roll over and accept the small things, we won't have the strength to fight the big things. 

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 1:51:22 AM   
LadyDominaX


Posts: 173
Joined: 5/17/2007
Status: offline 		I don't think I knew until just now what a Golliwog was.  Strikes me as a bit of an odd thing to collect, but there are folks who collect Nazi memorabilia, so I guess there is no accounting for taste. 

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 2:03:32 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

Why is it that people think it is alright to continue to degrade Black People and are suprised when we are offended and rise against it?



Sounds right to me. Those on the receiving end understand whether or not it's offensive.

It could be argued that you can't place restrictions on an action simply because it's offensive to a particular group because of the uncertainties involved in drawing the line, but that's what a civilised society does i.e. it democratically draws the line and places rules, laws and regulations around that line.

The alternative is allowing everyone to act/say whatever they like to whomever they like and expect others not to take offence, which is a recipe for lawlessness. Some won't take offence, some won't care, others will throw a few punches, others will reach for a knife.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 3:54:28 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

I have seen pictures of the golliwogs but didn't know what they were called.  It smacks of throwing antiquated attitudes back in the faces of us that have gotten past them. 

I see them as a symbol of racial degredation. 



Then you have a choice to make; either feel offended or not.  They are still going to be in someone's car window.   



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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 4:07:35 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

Why is it that people think it is alright to continue to degrade Black People and are suprised when we are offended and rise against it?



Sounds right to me. Those on the receiving end understand whether or not it's offensive. [



On  the "receiving end" of what???  Did someone get punched?  How can anyone be on the "receiving" end of what "symbol" a stranger has in their car?   


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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 4:09:03 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Oh purrrrrrrrleeezzeee, marie... how about social conscience? Consideration? Courtesy? HUMANITY?

I think enough is enough with tolerating intolerance. Fuck, it always goes one way, doesn't it! The tolerant side has to put up with all the crap, and the fascists tolerate nothing, and use the democratic process to press their points on all who disagree with them... only to spit on democracy when they can. It's revolting.

And gollywogs absolutely are a symbol of gross, indecent racism in Britain. There's nothing to discuss: if I were a black person, I'd be disgusted at them. As I am not, I find them shameful and repulsive.

Somebody compared them with collecting nazi crap. That's exactly what they are.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 4:14:08 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It's not that simple.  Symbols aren't neutral, and intent is rarely neutral.  Usually when people display symbols that offend others, they do it with precisely that intent.  Not always, but usually.


And neither are racial caricatures of people...It's kind of one of the reasons you see so few folks walking around in black face anymore....Oh for the good ol' days.

Edited to add....Is it racially offensive for a white dude to have Pac as his avatar?


For some it would be....

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 4:34:06 AM   
marieToo


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Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
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quote:

Oh purrrrrrrrleeezzeee, marie... how about social conscience? Consideration? Courtesy? HUMANITY?


How about being true to one's owns intentions and feelings rather than cowering down because someone out there might be offended ?


quote:

I think enough is enough with tolerating intolerance.


I think enough is enough with creating issues of racism where there may not be any.


quote:

And gollywogs absolutely are a symbol of gross, indecent racism in Britain. There's nothing to discuss: if I were a black person, I'd be disgusted at them. As I am not, I find them shameful and repulsive.


Then don't display one.  I didnt even know what they were until this thread.  I personally wouldnt have the desire to display one, but I certainly respect someone else's right to see it as whatever symbol they see it as. 


< Message edited by marieToo -- 6/1/2007 4:36:01 AM >

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 4:50:03 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

Why is it that people think it is alright to continue to degrade Black People and are suprised when we are offended and rise against it?



Sounds right to me. Those on the receiving end understand whether or not it's offensive. [



On  the "receiving end" of what???  Did someone get punched?  How can anyone be on the "receiving" end of what "symbol" a stranger has in their car?   




The term wog is a racial slur from the days of the British Empire. It's wrapped up in second class status.

In addition, the gollywog caricatures the black community in a less than flattering way.

Marie, how can you possibly know whether or not it is offensive when it's not aimed at someone with your colour of skin?


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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 4:55:45 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Freedom comes with responsibilities, marie. An individual's freedom ends where another's starts. It's one of the principles of democracy.

Why get out of your way to defend the indefensible? You never heard of 'gollywogs'. Because until now you knew nothing of this aspect of British racism towards black people doesn't mean it didn't (or doesn't, sadly) exist.

God, marie, perhaps your eyes are shut a little too tight? I don't want this to turn into a personal slanging match, but I suggest you read up on the subject, since, by your own admission, you are so ignorant of it.


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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:00:04 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

Why is it that people think it is alright to continue to degrade Black People and are suprised when we are offended and rise against it?



Sounds right to me. Those on the receiving end understand whether or not it's offensive. [



On  the "receiving end" of what???  Did someone get punched?  How can anyone be on the "receiving" end of what "symbol" a stranger has in their car?   




The term wog is a racial slur from the days of the British Empire. It's wrapped up in second class status.

In addition, the gollywog caricatures the black community in a less than flattering way.

Marie, how can you possibly know whether or not it is offensive when it's not aimed at someone with your colour of skin?



How can you? 

No one can possible "know" whether something is offensive except unto oneself;   As we arent discussing a fact, but rather personal feelings.  You cant say A is offensive,  as a state of fact.   You can say A is offensive to some people.  Just look at this thread alone.  Some find it offensive, others do not.  By the way, I dont think my skin has to be a certain color to find something offensive, but regardless I didnt even state whether or not I found it offensive.  

What I stated was that some will take it (and OTHER "symbols") as offensive and others wont. Some intend for certain symbols to be offensive, others mean no harm and place a different value on them. 

In the long run, it's a choice, as to how to react based upon how you process such symbols and whether or not you care enough about your own convictions and beliefs.

That has been my only point.  Some will align with it, others will not. Im ok with that.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:04:30 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Freedom comes with responsibilities, marie. An individual's freedom ends where another's starts. It's one of the principles of democracy.

Why get out of your way to defend the indefensible? You never heard of 'gollywogs'. Because until now you knew nothing of this aspect of British racism towards black people doesn't mean it didn't (or doesn't, sadly) exist.

God, marie, perhaps your eyes are shut a little too tight? I don't want this to turn into a personal slanging match, but I suggest you read up on the subject, since, by your own admission, you are so ignorant of it.



I find your post rude, therefore not worthy of a debate.



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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:05:15 AM   
drawntothedark


Posts: 572
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Status: offline 		I cannot change the fact that some are blind or indifferent about this subject. I can't make someone see what they will not see. All I can do is govern myself accordingly.

To qoute one of my favorite movie's Boondock Saints

'We must always fear the wicked. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men.'



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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:08:24 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		No comment!

Edit: come to think of it, I do have a comment. Should I actively drag your name in the mud, insult you, and generally diminish you in the eyes of others because of a) your gender, or b) your nationality, or c) your skin colour, or even d) your religion, it would be my personal choice. Wouldn't it? And you wouldn't have to be offended; it would be my freedom against yours. You would have to shut up, put up, and look the other way. I could put little caricatures of you in my car and it would be just fine.

Would you be okay with that? Think about it honestly, regardless of your previous (uninformed) stance. Would you think it's alright to have your identity stomped on and made fun of CONSTANTLY, EVERYWHERE, and even worse: it would be generally accepted that you would have to nod happily at being a laughing stock?


< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/1/2007 5:16:16 AM >

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