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[Poll]

golliwogs - racially offensive?


I'm black/Afro-Caribbean; I find them offensive
  7% (3)
I'm black/Afro-Caribbean; I dont find them offensive
  4% (2)
I'm not black/Afro Caribbean; I find them offensive
  36% (15)
I'm not black/Afro-Caribbean; I dont find them offensive
  51% (21)


Total Votes : 41
(last vote on : 8/12/2007 7:50:26 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:10:45 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I certainly respect someone else's right to see it as whatever symbol they see it as. 



Marie, I can see where you're coming from (to an extent). It's not healthy to box people into compartments and say this is how it will be. People need room to breathe.

Having said this, the rule of law exists in the Western world. In the US, you are not free to do whatever you like. At some point we all draw the line on what is, or isn't, acceptable behaviour. I'd be very surprised if the vast majority of people in the US didn't believe in the rule of law. Civil liberties and responsibilities to the people around you have to be balanced. Too much of doing whatever the fuck you want, and not enough thinking of those around you will end up in chaos. 

So, if you believe in the rule of law, then it comes down to a view on what is acceptable. I gave a brief introduction into what the gollywog is all about and, at its core, it is concerned with second class status. In my eyes, this is crossing the line into unacceptable behaviour. I would argue that deeming this to be unacceptable is far more in tune with preserving peoples' rights and freedoms than your opinion because its preserving the right of a minority group to be treated equally. Put your feet in someone elses' shoes and they might not be as comfortable as they appear to be.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:14:08 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: drawntothedark

I cannot change the fact that some are blind or indifferent about this subject. I can't make someone see what they will not see. All I can do is govern myself accordingly.

To qoute one of my favorite movie's Boondock Saints

'We must always fear the wicked. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men.'





Lets assume for a moment this person who displayed the thing is a racist?  Can you change that?  If so, would you?  And where would you start?  Are you personally doing something proactive to educate and wipe out "indifference"?

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:24:08 AM   
drawntothedark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: drawntothedark

I cannot change the fact that some are blind or indifferent about this subject. I can't make someone see what they will not see. All I can do is govern myself accordingly.

To qoute one of my favorite movie's Boondock Saints

'We must always fear the wicked. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men.'





Lets assume for a moment this person who displayed the thing is a racist?  Can you change that?  If so, would you?  And where would you start?  Are you personally doing something proactive to educate and wipe out "indifference"?


Actually.............yes. I am doing something proactive.

Your point?

See this debate has gone on and will I'm sure go on for along time. The fact that YOU don't see this as a really bad racial prop still doesn't make it anyless of one. At the end of the day.........what can I do to change your mind? Absolutley nothing. We all have to make these choices for ourselves. This is America, you have the right to feel and express your views. (the  KKK can still hold meetings, governed by their right of freedom of speech). Of course, we have a right not to agree with you.

This subject happens to be one that brings out passionate feelings in most people. So Marie, it's to be understood that when you comment on the subject you will probably not like all of what you hear. You will probably also piss people off with your views. I'm not pissed however. Like I said above - I can't change your mind.


< Message edited by drawntothedark -- 6/1/2007 5:25:33 AM >

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:24:31 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I certainly respect someone else's right to see it as whatever symbol they see it as. 



Marie, I can see where you're coming from (to an extent). It's not healthy to box people into compartments and say this is how it will be. People need room to breathe.

Having said this, the rule of law exists in the Western world. In the US, you are not free to do whatever you like. At some point we all draw the line on what is, or isn't, acceptable behaviour. I'd be very surprised if the vast majority of people in the US didn't believe in the rule of law. Civil liberties and responsibilities to the people around you have to be balanced. Too much of doing whatever the fuck you want, and not enough thinking of those around you will end up in chaos. 


I agree completely with this. I dont know much about the British law but I suppose the courts will decide on whether or not displays of golliwogs should be illegal.  I am speaking more to a personal reaction to such things that may offend.  Thats where the post took me.

quote:

 Put your feet in someone elses' shoes and they might not be as comfortable as they appear to be.


I do and have, and I dont find it offensive when someone calls me a guinea or when non-italians stereotype me and ask me if my people are mafia.  And if I saw a sybmol of what *I* considered to be Italian hatred in some strangers car, rest assured I would not be offended by it.   And I would bet that there are people out there who will be offended that Im not offended.  I dont get to tell other people what to be offended by.  By all means if someone offends you, get pissed off.    

_____________________________

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(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:30:15 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

Why is it that people think it is alright to continue to degrade Black People and are suprised when we are offended and rise against it?



Sounds right to me. Those on the receiving end understand whether or not it's offensive. [



On  the "receiving end" of what???  Did someone get punched?  How can anyone be on the "receiving" end of what "symbol" a stranger has in their car?   




The term wog is a racial slur from the days of the British Empire. It's wrapped up in second class status.

In addition, the gollywog caricatures the black community in a less than flattering way.

Marie, how can you possibly know whether or not it is offensive when it's not aimed at someone with your colour of skin?



How can you? 

No one can possible "know" whether something is offensive except unto oneself;   As we arent discussing a fact, but rather personal feelings.  You cant say A is offensive,  as a state of fact.   You can say A is offensive to some people.  Just look at this thread alone.  Some find it offensive, others do not.  By the way, I dont think my skin has to be a certain color to find something offensive, but regardless I didnt even state whether or not I found it offensive.  

What I stated was that some will take it (and OTHER "symbols") as offensive and others wont. Some intend for certain symbols to be offensive, others mean no harm and place a different value on them. 

In the long run, it's a choice, as to how to react based upon how you process such symbols and whether or not you care enough about your own convictions and beliefs.

That has been my only point.  Some will align with it, others will not. Im ok with that.


I never said I find it offensive. The points I'm making are: a) it is wrapped up in second class status b) the minority group should be the judge of whether or not it's offensive.

I would disagree with your colour of skin comment in this context. Maybe I wasn't clear the first time 'round. My point is that you're not from a community with a recent history of slavery, lynchings, beatings etc i.e. victimisation and second class status.

What I stated was that some will take it (and OTHER "symbols") as offensive and others wont. Some intend for certain symbols to be offensive, others mean no harm and place a different value on them. 
 
I wouldn't disagree with this.

I must have misread your original post because it sounded to me like you were advocating "being true to one's intentions and feelings rather than cowering down", and this sounds pretty much like you're advocating anything goes, which I can't agree with.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:35:32 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Lets assume for a moment this person who displayed the thing is a racist?  Can you change that?  If so, would you?  And where would you start?  Are you personally doing something proactive to educate and wipe out "indifference"?


Yes, one can change one's views, though I very much doubt one can change another's views.

Real life experience is the best means. Through real life experience, one can see that not all young black guys are gun toting, BMW driving drug dealers. One learns that not every Muslim is a potential suicide bomber. One sees that not every white Anglo Saxon type is an angel. 

One realises that the good, bad and ugly exist in every section of the population, however one cuts it, and that stereotyping is ridiculously inaccurate, and that therefore not only racial hatred is ridiculous but also hatred based on gender, sexuality, religion, level of ability etc is equally ridiculous, and one comes to the understanding that one must deal with each person as an individual. Its an intellectual progress though to be sure, and sadly we know that 50% of people at least are lacking in the ability to make such a journey to realisation. Which is why perhaps we cannot have displays of golliwogs, because such a large proportion of the population will see thereby only a permission for their own stupidity to run rampant.

E

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:39:11 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Lets assume for a moment this person who displayed the thing is a racist?  Can you change that?  If so, would you?  And where would you start?  Are you personally doing something proactive to educate and wipe out "indifference"?



It's not because we can't change people that we have to accept everything they do or say. As NG pointed out, we live in countries where the rule of law prevails over the rights of the individual (and a good thing it is too, otherwise, imagine the chaos): in Britain particularly, there are laws against racism. In fact, racist slander is a crime that can be punished with prison.

Let racists be racists if they must: I just don't see why it's okay for them to throw their revolting opinions at us. In fact, it's not okay, and it's punishable by LAW.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:39:27 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

By all means if someone offends you, get pissed off.    



I can guarantee you that the things that piss me off have nothing to do with small-minded, half-wits with a poor taste in car ornaments.

My point is that I'm not from that background. Maybe someone who has had to put up with a load of shit for decades would be offended - the straw that broke the camels back sort of thing.

Not everyone's as rational as you. All it takes is a culture of allowing everyone to do whatever they want and the bright sparks will be off at the deep end. Freedom? definitely, providing it includes respecting the freedom of others.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:40:06 AM   
marieToo


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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

Why is it that people think it is alright to continue to degrade Black People and are suprised when we are offended and rise against it?



Sounds right to me. Those on the receiving end understand whether or not it's offensive. [



On  the "receiving end" of what???  Did someone get punched?  How can anyone be on the "receiving" end of what "symbol" a stranger has in their car?   




The term wog is a racial slur from the days of the British Empire. It's wrapped up in second class status.

In addition, the gollywog caricatures the black community in a less than flattering way.

Marie, how can you possibly know whether or not it is offensive when it's not aimed at someone with your colour of skin?



How can you? 

No one can possible "know" whether something is offensive except unto oneself;   As we arent discussing a fact, but rather personal feelings.  You cant say A is offensive,  as a state of fact.   You can say A is offensive to some people.  Just look at this thread alone.  Some find it offensive, others do not.  By the way, I dont think my skin has to be a certain color to find something offensive, but regardless I didnt even state whether or not I found it offensive.  

What I stated was that some will take it (and OTHER "symbols") as offensive and others wont. Some intend for certain symbols to be offensive, others mean no harm and place a different value on them. 

In the long run, it's a choice, as to how to react based upon how you process such symbols and whether or not you care enough about your own convictions and beliefs.

That has been my only point.  Some will align with it, others will not. Im ok with that.


I never said I find it offensive. The points I'm making are: a) it is wrapped up in second class status b) the minority group should be the judge of whether or not it's offensive.

I would disagree with your colour of skin comment in this context. Maybe I wasn't clear the first time 'round. My point is that you're not from a community with a recent history of slavery, lynchings, beatings etc i.e. victimisation and second class status.

What I stated was that some will take it (and OTHER "symbols") as offensive and others wont. Some intend for certain symbols to be offensive, others mean no harm and place a different value on them. 
 
I wouldn't disagree with this.

quote:

I must have misread your original post because it sounded to me like you were advocating "being true to one's intentions and feelings rather than cowering down", and this sounds pretty much like you're advocating anything goes, which I can't agree with.


No, you didnt misread.  If someone sees a bullwhip as a symbol of black slavery and someone else sees it as a symbol of bdsm, they should be true to their own beliefs and not hide their bullwhip because someone might see it differently than they do.  That is what I mean by being true to what you feel. 

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I give good agita.









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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 5:53:30 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

No, you didnt misread.  If someone sees a bullwhip as a symbol of black slavery and someone else sees it as a symbol of bdsm, they should be true to their own beliefs and not hide their bullwhip because someone might see it differently than they do.  That is what I mean by being true to what you feel. 



Fine, I see your point on those with other intentions.

What about those who are deliberately flaunting that symbol of black slavery. Who has the right/freedom? The oppressor, or the oppressed? Civilised societies protect minority groups.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 6:09:04 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

No, you didnt misread.  If someone sees a bullwhip as a symbol of black slavery and someone else sees it as a symbol of bdsm, they should be true to their own beliefs and not hide their bullwhip because someone might see it differently than they do.  That is what I mean by being true to what you feel. 



quote:

Fine, I see your point on those with other intentions.


I kind of went to a "bigger picture" point of view about the personal processing of being offended, whereas most people are discussing whether or not a specific act should be considered universally racial and/or offensive. 

What about those who are deliberately flaunting that symbol of black slavery. Who has the right/freedom? The oppressor, or the oppressed? Civilised societies protect minority groups.


The first thing would have to be someone feeling offended or righteous enough to file a civil complaint about something that they felt was "flaunting" a "symbol of black slavery".   Then the courts would have to decide if the defendant's  "flaunting" was against the law, what the defendant's intention was, and whether or not he/she did any damage to another human being.  Then of course a court would pass down a judgement.  Isn't that what is going on in the golliwog case?    

< Message edited by marieToo -- 6/1/2007 6:10:33 AM >

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 6:44:51 AM   
BBBTBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

I have seen pictures of the golliwogs but didn't know what they were called.  It smacks of throwing antiquated attitudes back in the faces of us that have gotten past them. 

I see them as a symbol of racial degredation. 



Then you have a choice to make; either feel offended or not.  They are still going to be in someone's car window.   




If you read my post further, you would have seen that I said they were offensive.  I don't deny anyone the right to display things of this nature on their personal property, but on the flipside, I won't just turn my head and ignore it.  It doesn't really matter what his reasons for putting the ugly little doll on his car were, he KNOWS they are a symbol of racism to the very core and by displaying them proudly says alot about what his mindset is. 

If people want to walk around showing their stupidity disguised as ignorance, they deserve whatever they get. 

There is no way that someone could proudly display something of this nature and say "I just collect them"  not in this day and time.   The information highway is available to anyone and everyone that has an inclination to access it.  There is really no excuse for anyone to say, "I didn't know".

I am of the belief that just because someone says they wouldn't be offended by something negative smacking them in the face is not being truthful to themselves or others. 

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 7:10:31 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		To the people who seem to think that symbols are inherently meaningless and the intent of someone who continually rides around in a black neighborhood with a golliwog on his car doesn't matter:

Suppose someone kept driving through a quiet Christian neighborhood with a picture of Jesus Christ sucking Satan's cock.  Do you really think that person wouldn't get a few comments?  And would you be persuaded by the argument that he just harmlessly collects pictures of Christ sucking Satan's cock?  I stopped posting in the bondage.com forums when they started allowing people to use swastikas as their avatar.  Do you really think that was just a meaningless symbol?  The intent was crystal clear.

The only possible misunderstanding I can see is that some people might think I'm denying that the person has a right to keep a golliwog on his car.  I would have thought it would be clear, from what I've written, that that's NOT the case; but, just to make the record clear--of course I believe that anyone has the right to display whatever mean-spirited and offensive symbols he wishes.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 7:23:56 AM   
sillysausage


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Status: offline 		That was exactly the point I tried to make to marie when I asked her whether she'd find it okay to have people drag her name or image in the mud, or put up a little caricature of her in their car.

Thank you for expressing so clearly what I only laboriously hinted at.

Wespekt.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 8:04:01 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

To the people who seem to think that symbols are inherently meaningless and the intent of someone who continually rides around in a black neighborhood with a golliwog on his car doesn't matter:



No one here stated that symbols are inherently meaningless.  I personally stated that they could/would mean different things to different people based on different beliefs.  Its about intent and whether or not someone has broken a law. Thats what courts are for and the reason why we dont convict people based on our reactions and emotions.

quote:

Suppose someone kept driving through a quiet Christian neighborhood with a picture of Jesus Christ sucking Satan's cock. 


Suppose they did.  I bet somewhere someone has.

quote:

Do you really think that person wouldn't get a few comments? 


They might.  Some people might get a kick out of it, others might be offended.  So they get comments.  Lots of people get lots of comments on lots of things.

quote:

And would you be persuaded by the argument that he just harmlessly collects pictures of Christ sucking Satan's cock? 


Would it matter whether or not I was pursueded by that argument?  Does he even owe me an explanation?

quote:

 I stopped posting in the bondage.com forums when they started allowing people to use swastikas as their avatar.  Do you really think that was just a meaningless symbol? 


If everyone was offended by it, I suppose B.Com would be empty, no?   And if someone is racially bigoted against a particular race, who does it really degrade???? 



quote:

The only possible misunderstanding I can see is that some people might think I'm denying that the person has a right to keep a golliwog on his car.  I would have thought it would be clear, from what I've written, that that's NOT the case; but, just to make the record clear--of course I believe that anyone has the right to display whatever mean-spirited and offensive symbols he wishes.


And you have the right to feel offended by it, no one is denying you that anger.

_____________________________

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 8:15:35 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I can see your point Marie, but the problem is I believe that there is a high percentage of people walking our streets who are unable to reason in the way you are, I am and the rest of us here are, as self selecting intellectual types discussing this matter.

For the less enlightened part of the population, they have not yet reasoned their way out of racist attitudes because largely they are incapable of doing so. They dont express those attitudes publicly very much, because they know they will be frowned upon, but they are there in the background, and brought inevitably to the fore when those concerned feel safe to express their views.

By displaying symbols that have originated from or have connotations of racist intent - whether or not the particular display is intended to have such connotation or intent - it tells the less enlightened part of the population that their views are OK for public display and consumption, it gives credence to them and brings about a state of mind for them that everyone similar to them in appearance holds the same views.

As I stated in the OP, I dont see the problem and I had hoped we had grown out of all that. But thats not the point - the point is that there obviously still is a problem, because many people have expressed offence or embarassment about the matter in hand.

E

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 8:32:33 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		At this point, I don't even understand what we're discussing.  Displaying a golliwog isn't a crime in the U.S.; I don't know about the U.K., but I don't think it's criminal there, either.  So the courts are irrelevant.  If you agree that the intent of someone who continually rides through a black neighborhood with a golliwog on his car is to offend the people in that neighborhood, then we don't seem to be disagreeing about very much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Its about intent and whether or not someone has broken a law. Thats what courts are for and the reason why we dont convict people based on our reactions and emotions.

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 8:35:16 AM   
BBBTBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I can see your point Marie, but the problem is I believe that there is a high percentage of people walking our streets who are unable to reason in the way you are, I am and the rest of us here are, as self selecting intellectual types discussing this matter.

For the less enlightened part of the population, they have not yet reasoned their way out of racist attitudes because largely they are incapable of doing so. They dont express those attitudes publicly very much, because they know they will be frowned upon, but they are there in the background, and brought inevitably to the fore when those concerned feel safe to express their views.

By displaying symbols that have originated from or have connotations of racist intent - whether or not the particular display is intended to have such connotation or intent - it tells the less enlightened part of the population that their views are OK for public display and consumption, it gives credence to them and brings about a state of mind for them that everyone similar to them in appearance holds the same views.

As I stated in the OP, I dont see the problem and I had hoped we had grown out of all that. But thats not the point - the point is that there obviously still is a problem, because many people have expressed offence or embarassment about the matter in hand.

E


I wonder how someone can out grow blatent smacks of racism.  As I said earlier whatever verbal reason he gave about displaying such an offensive symbol, the mere fact that he did it shows us his mindset.  Honestly do you really deep down think this man  put it on his car simply because he collects them.  Do you honestly believe he didn't give a thought to the social and societal implications of his display?


_____________________________

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RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 8:36:30 AM   
marieToo


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From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I can see your point Marie, but the problem is I believe that there is a high percentage of people walking our streets who are unable to reason in the way you are, I am and the rest of us here are, as self selecting intellectual types discussing this matter.

For the less enlightened part of the population, they have not yet reasoned their way out of racist attitudes because largely they are incapable of doing so. They dont express those attitudes publicly very much, because they know they will be frowned upon, but they are there in the background, and brought inevitably to the fore when those concerned feel safe to express their views.

By displaying symbols that have originated from or have connotations of racist intent - whether or not the particular display is intended to have such connotation or intent - it tells the less enlightened part of the population that their views are OK for public display and consumption, it gives credence to them and brings about a state of mind for them that everyone similar to them in appearance holds the same views.

As I stated in the OP, I dont see the problem and I had hoped we had grown out of all that. But thats not the point - the point is that there obviously still is a problem, because many people have expressed offence or embarassment about the matter in hand.

E


I see what your saying. I really do.  But there will always be racism and or bigotry of ALL sorts; what cant be tolerated is inequality under the laws of the land and or violence and things that affect a particular race, or any other culture or orientation for that matter. 
We cant go around prosecuting everyone who hurts our feelings.  I realize Im in the minority here, but I really see a trend (not just on the boards but in society in general) and a level of over-reactive outrage about bigotry,  that I think is more dangerous than bigotry itself. 

_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: golliwogs - racially offensive? - 6/1/2007 8:43:44 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

FR: 

Nothing in and of itself can be uniformly defined as "offensive" to all people. 

Feeling offended by something or someone is a personal choice that, at the end of the day, only affects the offendEE.

quote:

marietoo
Symbols" are subjective, and "intent" is hardly something that can be proven, and things that "offend" others is a variable.  Therefore the statement highlighted in red cannot be taken as a fact.  
What will offend one person wouldn't offend another.  The differing viewpoints in this thread are a display of that.  Who cares what someone's intent is if they give you the middle finger, for instance?  You can choose to be offended and report them for sexual harassement, or you can shrug it off.


quote:

marietoo
Then you have a choice to make; either feel offended or not.  They are still going to be in someone's car window.


quote:

marietoo
Then don't display one.  I didnt even know what they were until this thread.  I personally wouldnt have the desire to display one, but I certainly respect someone else's right to see it as whatever symbol they see it as.


I got tired of quoting you....You make a horribly lackluster  analogy to something as inocuos as a bullwhip and try to compare that to the golliwogs..........You have gone on and on.

I am parking my car outside of your house and in the window will be a sign that reads, "marietoo is a ignorant useless subhuman piece of crap.".....Would you be offended?

Yes it is possible the person who put the golliwog on display is dumb, maybe thinks that they are adorable or maybe the person feels that blacks are a subhuman race....either way it is extremely easy why some people if not the majority might be offended by that person's actions.

I find it incredibly assinine when someone makes the argument....Well, I'm Irish, and you can say that all Irish are drunks and it won't phase me a bit! Or that all Italians are in the mafia.....Is that a comparison to what people of African decent have had to endure?...It is incredibly short sighted if not blantantly showing a glaring ignorance as well as a tremendous lack of compassion.

I don't understand your argument....Are you enjoying yourself?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/1/2007 8:56:57 AM >

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(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 80
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