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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 4:45:53 PM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

You guys are funny. So, without laying a bunch of crap on our heads, would you have tortured someone, perhaps even tortured them to death, if it lead to information that would have prevented 9/11.

I need to say that again. Stick with the hypothetical. Please don't resort to saying "hey man, torture doesn't produce good intel." That isn't the question. The question is whether you personally you would torture someone (perhaps to death) to get information that would have prevented 9/11?

My answer, predictably, is "yes".


Torture is, like Rape, INHERENTLY EVIL, and therefore there is NEVER any justification for it.

If you'll rape someone for a GOOD reason, you'll rape them for ANY reason.




Fargle, who said anything about raping al qeada guys?
Have you seen them Mr Fr's?
Harvey Fierstein wouldn't touch them!
Nothing wrong with giving them a ROOT CANAL though!

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 4:50:06 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		Really?  So napalm is wrong, guns are wrong, bombs are wrong, etc.  Do you think that waging war is not a form of torture?  Are you not physically or emotionally damaging someone when you kill or maime someone during the act of war?

Nobody says that torture is a good thing...an admirable thing.  The question is whether torture is a reasonable tool in your arsenal to prevent further death and destruction to your own countrymen. 

Saddam tortured people...well...just cuz.  There was rape, acid baths, mayhem, beatings, setting people on fire, gassings, etc.  Is that what you equate our actions to?  Are you making a moral equivalent argument that water boarding a terrorist is equal to giving a woman who failed to wear her head covering an acid bath? 

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 4:51:54 PM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Fargle, who said anything about raping al qeada guys?
Have you seen them Mr Fr's?
Harvey Fierstein wouldn't touch them!
Nothing wrong with giving them a ROOT CANAL though!


Torture and Rape are the same crime, namely, violation of Individual Sovereignty, and reduction from being a Free Person, to simply Property.

They are *ALWAYS* Evil, and unjustified acts.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/31/2007 4:52:31 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 4:57:40 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Really? So napalm is wrong, guns are wrong, bombs are wrong, etc. Do you think that waging war is not a form of torture? Are you not physically or emotionally damaging someone when you kill or maime someone during the act of war?


Oh, so now you want to discuss War?

Get back to me when Congress declares one.


quote:


Nobody says that torture is a good thing...an admirable thing. The question is whether torture is a reasonable tool in your arsenal to prevent further death and destruction to your own countrymen.


It is EVIL. Torturers do not have a "Right To Life". They are a Cancer on civilization.

If you'll torture someone for a "Good" reason, you'll do it for "Any" reason. You can rationalize *any* act, if you try hard enough.

quote:


Saddam tortured people...well...just cuz.


And if WE are BETTER THAN HUSSEIN, we will not torture people. That's the difference between GOOD people and EVIL people.

If you don't care to be EXACTLY AS EVIL AS HUSSEIN, then advocate torture all you want.

If Saddam Hussein is your moral benchmark... .Well, the mods don't like me to get to personal...

quote:


There was rape, acid baths, mayhem, beatings, setting people on fire, gassings, etc. Is that what you equate our actions to?


Well, I don't know about the acid baths, but we've document rape, mayhem, beatings...

Are you saying you're happy to only be HALF as evil as Saddam Hussein?

quote:


Are you making a moral equivalent argument that water boarding a terrorist is equal to giving a woman who failed to wear her head covering an acid bath?


The Nazis used Water-boarding too. So... Yeah. Pretty much.

EVIL is EVIL. If you are NOT GOOD, YOU ARE EVIL.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 4:58:07 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		Ok...we'll just chalk that up to your opinion but my opinion is that you couldn't be MORE wrong.  In the defense of your country, you may have to wage war, conduct extremely coercive interrogations, raze villages, blockcade a warring nation to the point of starvation, send out spies, do covert kills, etc. etc. etc.  That you would put us on an unlevel playing field with a savage enemy is unfortunate but that's your right.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:01:57 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		That the difference, buddy, I don't consider the U.S. to be evil. :)  I don't consider coercive interrogations to protect people like you to be evil.  If you get information, and we have, then DO IT.   Get it done....use the information to save American lives.  There are people that do terrible acts (like drop bombs and napalm and assassinations etc.) so you and I don't have to.  You call them evil.  I call them Americans.  That is where we differ.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:04:53 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Ok...we'll just chalk that up to your opinion but my opinion is that you couldn't be MORE wrong. In the defense of your country, you may have to wage war, conduct extremely coercive interrogations, raze villages, blockcade a warring nation to the point of starvation, send out spies, do covert kills, etc. etc. etc. That you would put us on an unlevel playing field with a savage enemy is unfortunate but that's your right.


So to clarify, your position is that men are NOT created equal, nor are the endowed by their creator with unalienable rights?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:06:18 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

That the difference, buddy, I don't consider the U.S. to be evil. :) I don't consider coercive interrogations to protect people like you to be evil.


Oh, don't justify your sins by pointing at me and mine and allege that your EVIL is to protect us.

We don't *NEED* your protection.

Being protected is for mental incompetents and other wards of the State.

Or did the 2nd Amendment and it's responsibilities just pass you by?




_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:12:16 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Ok...we'll just chalk that up to your opinion but my opinion is that you couldn't be MORE wrong. In the defense of your country, you may have to wage war, conduct extremely coercive interrogations, raze villages, blockcade a warring nation to the point of starvation, send out spies, do covert kills, etc. etc. etc. That you would put us on an unlevel playing field with a savage enemy is unfortunate but that's your right.


So to clarify, your position is that men are NOT created equal, nor are the endowed by their creator with unalienable rights?



Explain to me please (speak as if unto a child) how you get there from what he said?
 
You knew someone would ask.
 
K.
 

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:19:10 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Torture is predicated on the deprivation of Due Process and Equal Protection of the Law.

To strip someone of those Rights, you must consider them alienable, as in, not absolute, nor granted us by our creator. Simply because there has BEEN NO PROTECTION OF THE LAW nor DUE PROCESS.

If you get picked up in NYS for a crime, you are arraigned within 72 hours. That is because we have an unalienable right to liberty. That right is protected by requiring the Government to use ONLY Due Process, and apply the laws Equally.

By saying that someone else gets DIFFERENT RIGHTS than anyone in New York, well, there is no act *more* antithetical to the spirit and letter of the Declaration of Independence.

Torturers Hate American Values. Period.

They are Evil. We cannot be GOOD and condone Evil.

It *is* that cut and dried.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:26:29 PM   
Carrianna


Posts: 273
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline 		Brilliant thread....  Soooooo many questions but to late to articulate ones self...

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:32:53 PM   
SirKitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

EVIL is EVIL. If you are NOT GOOD, YOU ARE EVIL.




Unless you're "Beyond Good and Evil."



_____________________________

"Industrial societies turn their citizens into image-junkies;
it is the most irresistible form of mental pollution." - Susan Sontag

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:35:16 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Torture is predicated on the deprivation of Due Process and Equal Protection of the Law.

To strip someone of those Rights, you must consider them alienable, as in, not absolute, nor granted us by our creator. Simply because there has BEEN NO PROTECTION OF THE LAW nor DUE PROCESS.

If you get picked up in NYS for a crime, you are arraigned within 72 hours. That is because we have an unalienable right to liberty. That right is protected by requiring the Government to use ONLY Due Process, and apply the laws Equally.

By saying that someone else gets DIFFERENT RIGHTS than anyone in New York, well, there is no act *more* antithetical to the spirit and letter of the Declaration of Independence.

Torturers Hate American Values. Period.

They are Evil. We cannot be GOOD and condone Evil.

It *is* that cut and dried.



For you.

I see no support for your claim to a knowledge of Absolutes.

But thank you,

K.



(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:39:43 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I do not think that Nietzche's criticism of Catholic Morality is really relevant in my case, being a Jew.

And Our G-d, the Old Testament G-d, he doesn't mess around. It's really clear cut what Evil is.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to SirKitty)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:43:16 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		I'll answer how Fargle gets there.  Fargle tries to rely on the U.S. Constitution to hamstring his own country.  He reverts back to this argument again and again and he was schooled in it the last time he raised it by a number of people including me.  The Equal Protection Clause and Declaration of Independence and the the UDHR
have nothing to do with the argument.  Eric was particulary eloquent in revealing Fargle's arguments to be vacuous and a red herring.

The issue is whether coercive interrogation is a tool effective enough to be employed to protect America.  Fargle enjoys "trying" to ride some high horse and moralize.  But all of Fargle's arguments boil down to the same thing: America must be hamstrung while her enemies can do anything.  What was Fargle's response to waging war and using napalm or nukes in the face of an invasion by a superior force?  He said "let's talk about war when Congress declares one."  Did you find that persuasive?  Of course not.   


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:44:11 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Sounds like someone was on the losing end of an argument and made something up in order to enhance his interogatory technique.
 
~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:45:22 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I do not think that Nietzche's criticism of Catholic Morality is really relevant in my case, being a Jew.

And Our G-d, the Old Testament G-d, he doesn't mess around. It's really clear cut what Evil is.




Fargle, you're a Jew? You sure?
You sound like a Holy Roller.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:46:30 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Torture is predicated on the deprivation of Due Process and Equal Protection of the Law.

To strip someone of those Rights, you must consider them alienable, as in, not absolute, nor granted us by our creator. Simply because there has BEEN NO PROTECTION OF THE LAW nor DUE PROCESS.

If you get picked up in NYS for a crime, you are arraigned within 72 hours. That is because we have an unalienable right to liberty. That right is protected by requiring the Government to use ONLY Due Process, and apply the laws Equally.

By saying that someone else gets DIFFERENT RIGHTS than anyone in New York, well, there is no act *more* antithetical to the spirit and letter of the Declaration of Independence.

Torturers Hate American Values. Period.

They are Evil. We cannot be GOOD and condone Evil.

It *is* that cut and dried.



For you.

I see no support for your claim to a knowledge of Absolutes.

But thank you,

K.



Well, it's a MORAL stance, isn't it. If your personal and subjective moral core *isn't* absolute, then how can it form the foundation of your individual moral acts?

I'm with Sartre on this, I suppose... Public Morality is a social constructivist artifact, and only a reflection of the authentic personal, subjective morality, of our beliefs and actions.

That said, how else can we uplift SOCIETY'S moral standards, if we don't aspire to the ideal ourselves?

We *have* *exactly* the society we deserve.

We need to try harder to be Good.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:47:13 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		All of the following crap from Fargle is exactly out of a thread whose subject was whether constitutional rights should be applied to terrorists. 

"If you get picked up in NYS for a crime, you are arraigned within 72 hours. That is because we have an unalienable right to liberty. That right is protected by requiring the Government to use ONLY Due Process, and apply the laws Equally.

By saying that someone else gets DIFFERENT RIGHTS than anyone in New York, well, there is no act *more* antithetical to the spirit and letter of the Declaration of Independence."

It was a totally irrelevant now as it was then.  You really should look up that thread.  When Fargle's arguments about the constitution were shot down but a number of people, that was when he got into his whole UDHR argument, which was immediately discredited.  You should read that thread. 

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:48:03 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I'll answer how Fargle gets there. Fargle tries to rely on the U.S. Constitution to hamstring his own country.


Define: Constitutional Republic


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 40
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