RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is a term originally coined by the Nazis.

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:51:50 PM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

The issue is whether coercive interrogation is a tool effective enough to be employed to protect America. Fargle enjoys "trying" to ride some high horse and moralize. But all of Fargle's arguments boil down to the same thing: America must be hamstrung while her enemies can do anything.

I believe that the original posting was falacious and inflamatory - designed to more bring forth an emotion that reflecting a reality -

-but-

Your statement here is incorrect and emotionally charged with nonsense as well.

If we portend to be something 'moral' and a 'country of laws' (which we do) then it is not fitting that we deny others basic human rights (a cause this country championed internationally for the last 60 years) where it is convenient and state that other countries are terroristic states for holding people without recourse to basic legal services....

It only makes us hypocrits.

The thing is - when this government (and, this is not a swipe at any party or person in power) must rationalize and utilize many lawyers to prove that we are not 'violating international and/or national law' (and, do so unconvincingly), then there something significantly wrong about the position we are trying to prove (both to the American people and the international community).

~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

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Post #: 41

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:54:59 PM

lockedaway

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Geez....wow....OK. The terrorists do have rights. You do realize that, right? They are rights conveyed to them under the Hague Convention and they fall under the heading of illegal combatants. K? The U.S. Constitution does not apply.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 42

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 5:57:32 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Geez....wow....OK. The terrorists do have rights. You do realize that, right? They are rights conveyed to them under the Hague Convention and they fall under the heading of illegal combatants. K? The U.S. Constitution does not apply.

1. Define: Constitutional Republic

2. Explain the meaning of the phrase: "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/31/2007 5:58:39 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Post #: 43

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:03:27 PM

LordODiscipline

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The Hague Convention mentions no such definition and only vaguely touches on combatants at all.

The definition you are using was championed by this country.

I belive someone is bum doping you; but, I am more than willing to be proven incorrect if you can find such a reference.

~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 44

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:03:59 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Well, my friend, that is the difference between us. I condone any form of interrogation that produces results. If interrogators can show that they have obtained good intel from water boarding....then water board. I respect your opinion but I believe you should reconsider calling other Amercians, patriots, fellows in arms, whatever...fascists.

Oh...just out of curiosity, what are you going to call Americans that consider using nuclear weapons to stop a 10 million man army from invading the U.S.

lockedaway:
So you would be against torture if someone could show you that it did not produce good intel. Has anyone shown you irrefutable evidence that it does produce good intel?

Who has a ten million man army? If they had them how would they get them here?
You might want to look at this it is the governments assessment of China's military capability.
thompson

http://www.slate.com/id/2141966/

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Post #: 45

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:06:35 PM

lockedaway

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Hey Farg, we covered this argument in a prior thread. It is the thread regarding giving constitutional rights to terrorists. Do you recall? I'm not going over this again with you. Are you going to deny trying to invoke the Constitution? After getting your ears boxed, do you deny trying to rely on the Declaration of Independence? After getting schooled on that one, do you deny trying to rely on the UDHR? After getting immediately skunked on that one (because it isn't a treaty), do you deny raising The Hague Convention? Then when you heard from a former marine who is on the board who told you just how the Hague Convention already applies do you deny, lamely, attempting to go back to the Constitution?

You asked me to define those words in that prior thread. Why don't you be a stand up guy, pull up that thread and post the answers you received. Why be redundant? You tipped swords with a number of people on exactly this issue not more than 1.5 months ago. What that thread proved is that it doesn't matter how fatuous your arguments are, your point of view cannot be changed whether it is correct or incorrect.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 46

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:08:16 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Ok...we'll just chalk that up to your opinion but my opinion is that you couldn't be MORE wrong. In the defense of your country, you may have to wage war, conduct extremely coercive interrogations, raze villages, blockcade a warring nation to the point of starvation, send out spies, do covert kills, etc. etc. etc. That you would put us on an unlevel playing field with a savage enemy is unfortunate but that's your right.

lockedaway:
Perhaps you might enlighten us as to when ,since the war of 1812, the U.S. has waged a war of defense. All of the history seems to point to the fact that all of the wars since the one in 1812 were fought to make rich people richer.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/31/2007 6:12:46 PM >

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Post #: 47

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:09:13 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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1. Define: Constitutional Republic

2. Explain the meaning of the phrase: "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Post #: 48

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:11:22 PM

lockedaway

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If it was shown that coercive interrogation produced no worthwhile information then I wouldn't support it. It would be a waste of time. But coercive interrogation has produced results, at least so say those who employed it. Should I call them liars because coercive interrogation is considered torture irrespective of where on the torture spectrum it falls? No, if I'm going to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to give it to the service personnel that has to deal with these terrorists.

Tell me, if coercive interrogation was proven to give valuable intel, would you support it?

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 49

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:12:21 PM

lockedaway

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Right...redundancy seems to be your strong suit. Read my prior post.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 50

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:13:17 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

If it was shown that coercive interrogation produced no worthwhile information then I wouldn't support it. It would be a waste of time. But coercive interrogation has produced results, at least so say those who employed it. Should I call them liars because coercive interrogation is considered torture irrespective of where on the torture spectrum it falls? No, if I'm going to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to give it to the service personnel that has to deal with these terrorists.

Tell me, if coercive interrogation was proven to give valuable intel, would you support it?

Is the price, being AS BAD AS THEY ALLEGEDLY ARE, worth it?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 51

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:15:56 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Right...redundancy seems to be your strong suit. Read my prior post.

Yeah, I get it. You're a Hamiltonian, to who the clear text, isn't the clear text.

The reservation of all unenumerated rights isn't the reservation of ALL unenumerated rights.

That's why I'm trying to stick with FUNdamentals. If I'm wrong, then it's easy enough to prove it.

Let's begin:

1. Define: Constitutional Republic

2. Explain the meaning of the phrase: "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 52

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:17:53 PM

lockedaway

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*sigh* If submarine warfare is bad because it often targeted or resulted in the deaths of non-combatants, does that mean that we shouldn't have ever used submarines? How about using bombs and bombers?

When you talk about coercive interrogation, you are talking about loud music, temperature changes, sleep deprivation and, perhaps, water boarding. You aren't talking about cutting off genitalia and choking someone to death like the Japanese did in WWII. You aren't talking about pulling out fingernails or slitting eyelids or acid baths or many, many other things. You want to lump them all into one? You can....but it sounds dumb.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 53

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:19:56 PM

lockedaway

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Joined: 3/15/2007
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Oh wow....calling me a Hamiltonian again? This is also part of the same thread as aforementioned. What's the matter, are you running out of material? Why can't you understand that I'm not going to re-argue the same thing you raised before? Don't be obtuse, learn to take NO for an answer. Everything you raise here is 100% out of that prior thread and it was answered in that thread. Grow up already, move on.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 54

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:20:31 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

*sigh* If submarine warfare is bad because it often targeted or resulted in the deaths of non-combatants, does that mean that we shouldn't have ever used submarines? How about using bombs and bombers?

When you talk about coercive interrogation, you are talking about loud music, temperature changes, sleep deprivation and, perhaps, water boarding. You aren't talking about cutting off genitalia and choking someone to death like the Japanese did in WWII. You aren't talking about pulling out fingernails or slitting eyelids or acid baths or many, many other things. You want to lump them all into one? You can....but it sounds dumb.

According to the article linked in the beginning of the thread, THAT'S WHAT THE NAZIS SAID, TOO.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 55

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:21:34 PM

lockedaway

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Post the sources to which you refer.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 56

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:22:28 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Oh wow....calling me a Hamiltonian again? This is also part of the same thread as aforementioned. What's the matter, are you running out of material? Why can't you understand that I'm not going to re-argue the same thing you raised before? Don't be obtuse, learn to take NO for an answer. Everything you raise here is 100% out of that prior thread and it was answered in that thread. Grow up already, move on.

Man, I thought they were such easy questions.

We used to learn that shit in the 3rd grade. Hell, it's 2007, you *could* have even cribbed from wikipedia and google!

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 57

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:22:42 PM

lockedaway

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Thanks, that really doesn't respond to my last post.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 58

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:23:57 PM

lockedaway

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But you got those easy questions answered once before not more than 6 weeks ago or so. Why are you acting like a ding bat? Don't you remember?

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 59

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:27:03 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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Well, you're not responding to my VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD, AND SIMPLE requests for clarification of some VERY FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS of what we are discussing, are you?

And rather than re-hash your belief that Federal Authority is *NOT* strictly limited by the Constitution, due to your liberal interpretation of "Necessary and Proper", I *really* wanna examine how we get from, what's fundamentally a nation founded upon the unalienable Rights of Man, and the Rule of Law, to condoning the worst atrocities imaginable, those in direct opposition to Rights and Law.

So let's take it from the top:

1. Define: Constitutional Republic

2. Explain the meaning of the phrase: "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 60

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