Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is a term originally coined by the Nazis.


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is a term originally coined by the Nazis. Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:52:12 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Ok, how about this one. Forgive the pseudo-code.

if ( accomplishes ($GOAL ) ) { Rape; };



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:54:37 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Post the sources to which you refer.


lockedaway:
If you tell me which post you are referring to I would be glad to but I cannot read your mind.
thompson

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:56:07 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Well, it's a MORAL stance, isn't it.

To be precise, it is a stance that relies on a claim to moral superiority.

Whether or not it is superior, or even moral at all, is a separate matter. Presenting the logic by which you arrive at the GOOD is this situation creates a problem. When "moral" choices are arrived at by reason, reason is determining your actions -- not morality.

There goes the moral claim. The next duck is your logic.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/31/2007 7:01:23 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:56:39 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

"Did you read the article, to which this entire thread refers?

I *suspect* not, because that charge is very much answered in the article."

What the hell does the above have to do with the relevant point that I raised, which is that you repeatedly compare the U.S., or some aspect of the U.S., to Nazi Germany???


Well, you see, it's losing family in the camps, that makes me especially sensitive to the direct parallels between the Germany in say 1934, and the USA, regarding the way the Rule of Law is being discarded in the name of "The Fatherland"... Sorry.... It's "Homeland" this time around the wheel.

Having daughters, I think, makes me especially sensitive to the issue of Self-Governance and it's inter-relationship with Freedom and Liberty. If *THEY* are deprived of choice in ANY aspect of their lives, are they truly free, and if they aren't free, how should they be taught to react? "Life During Wartime", y'know.

In other words, "I calls 'em as I sees 'em".



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/31/2007 6:57:03 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:56:48 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		Your post number to which I responded is probably listed on my post, isn't it?  If not it is concerning your war of 1812 post.  But our conversation is going to be quite short if you aren't going to show me the courtesy of answering the question I just asked in my prior post to you. 

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:58:03 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Well, it's a MORAL stance, isn't it.

To be precise, it is a stance that relies on a claim to moral superiority.



I have no problem saying that *I* am *BETTER* than some child-rapist, or torturer.

No problem at all.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:00:55 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		I gotta tell ya, pal, I really don't care a hoot in hell about your alleged concerns because you may have had family that suffered in WWII.  See....millions upon millions of families suffered during WWII and it is still bullsh*t for you to compare any aspect of this country to Nazi Germany.  It is an emotional, stupid and disrectful comparison and you make it all of the time.  Now I corrected you once before about comparing this country to Nazi Germany and I told you that a valid comparison was to compare us to Peru.  After I pointed that out to you, you became noticeably quiet.  Nope....you LIKE TO COMPARE US TO THE NAZIS.  Why?  Is it in your family history?  Is it because the jews were one of the major targets of the Holocaust?  What is it?

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:01:13 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

You'd lose. I don't know who Ward Churchill is...or was...whatever. And, no, I don't think all Americans are fascists. Just the ones who condone torture.


My opinions on torture and American foreign policy aside...

Fascism is not related to torture, per se.

It is the doctrine that the state constitutes a larger organism, a "higher being" if you will, than the individual, and that the importance of an individual lies in their contribution to the collective. Kind of like how cells in the human body are individual cells that contribute to the human whole.

It is a doctrine I wholeheartedly disagree with, being of the opinion that the collective was formed to aid the individual and has no other value or independent existance.

However, it is also a doctrine I do not see present in America to an extent deserving the label. Is there tons of stuff I disagree with in their foreign policy? Yes. Is the use of torture something I condone as an act of government under present circumstances? No.

But to say that either is intrinsic to, or indicative of, fascism, is- IMO- undervaluing the scope and nature of the abomination of fascism, and entirely inappropriate. Fascism is the worse crime, in my eyes: it devalues and abuses the individual that allows it to exist, as a parasite with no redeeming value, and runs contrary to everything anyone practicing BDSM should (IMHO) believe in. Don't sell the bad guy short.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesertRat)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:01:24 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Re-read what I said.  Try to focus on the part where I say "giving the benefit of the doubt".  Now you understand what that means...right?  I never said I had conclusive proof for one side or the other, did I????  Nope, I said that the people that have employed it, specifically water boarding, was that it worked.  Now who am I going to give the benefit of the doubt to?  Am I going to excoriate members of our military or our intelligence for using it although I find it reprehensible?  No...I'm not.  If they say it works and that they have obtained valuable intel then I'm going to say "do it, then." 

Does that answer your question?  Now, hows about answering mine.  IF you had conclusive proof that enhanced interrogation worked, would you support the use of it.  Yes.....or......No.


lockedaway:
More weasel words...it appears that you consider opinion to be justification.  If you can't deal in facts then please do not waste my time.
thompson

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:02:44 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe you are....maybe you're not!!!  

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:04:21 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		That was certainly a gutless post!  You asked me a question about my support of enhanced interrogation and I answered it.  I turned your question back on you and you won't answer it.  Gutless!

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:04:22 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Your post number to which I responded is probably listed on my post, isn't it?  If not it is concerning your war of 1812 post.  But our conversation is going to be quite short if you aren't going to show me the courtesy of answering the question I just asked in my prior post to you. 


lockedaway:
Tell me which war you want to quibble about and I will cite for you.
thompson

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:05:26 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		You are no longer relevant.  There is no discourse that can be had with you.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:10:33 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I gotta tell ya, pal, I really don't care a hoot in hell about your alleged concerns


There is none so blind, as he who chooses not to see.
Take my comments under advisement.

PRAY they are not prescient.


quote:

it is still bullsh*t for you to compare any aspect of this country to Nazi Germany.


Hitler used Fear of Jews to deprive formally Democratic Germans of Equal Protection and Due Process.

Bush used Fear of Muslims to deprive formally Democratic Americans of Equal Protection and Due Process.

See the similarity?


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:12:13 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Torture is, like Rape, INHERENTLY EVIL, and therefore there is NEVER any justification for it.


Perhaps.

It is inherently undesireable, if committed on a non-consenting party, I would agree, and such would also be the case for most western schools of ethics. I will refrain from commenting on the concept of "evil", save to say that I have not found the concept useful in any context. Perhaps you might substitute "abominable" or somesuch?

That said, given the choice between such an atrocity against a stranger, and losing the people I love, I'd have to go with being the bad guy. Then again, I consider survival from the naturalist side: you do what you have to do.

This does not, however, imply that I mean it is currently being used for acceptable reasons.

quote:

If you'll rape someone for a GOOD reason, you'll rape them for ANY reason.


This does not follow.

If you are willing to do X to survive, it does not follow that you'll do X to get yourself killed when you want to live, for instance.

Suffice to say that if you'll hurt someone given what you consider an adequate reason (I will not bring justification into it; I would not feel justified in doing such a thing, even if I, in my opinion, had due cause to do it) then you will do it for any adequate reason, because you have the capacity to do it when you have the need to.

That does not imply that you would do it for what you consider inadequate reasons, or that you would do it "just for kicks", or even like doing it.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:15:19 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		No I don't.  I see where Bush has incarcerrated illegal combatants and those suspected of committing or conspiring to commit acts of terrorism against the U.S.  This AGAIN goes back to that famous prior thread when we got into a protracted discussion about trying terrorists in State courts.  So...you are wrong to compare this country to Nazi Germany.  Period.  Why don't you have the moral courage to admit you are wrong (just like on the UDHR issue) and get away from it?  Why Fargle?  Why oh why?  LOLOLOLOL like I really care.  You wanna compare this country to Nazi Germany?  Many hundreds of thousands of Americans gave their lives for you to have the right to spew such stupidity.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:15:48 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


That does not imply that you would do it for what you consider inadequate reasons, or that you would do it "just for kicks", or even like doing it.


I think when you create the infrastructure, that mindset is inevitable, the "Dumb 21 year old PFC who did something..." when you don't have strict discipline, people are going to get raped up the ass with broomsticks.

This ties into the challenges of an Occupation force vs. an Invasion Force, and how come Bush is so stupid he doesn't know the difference, much less how to properly command either?




_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:16:46 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Saddam tortured people...well...just cuz. [...] Are you making a moral equivalent argument that water boarding a terrorist is equal to giving a woman who failed to wear her head covering an acid bath?


Do not confuse Saddam with the Taliban.

The latter example is from the Taliban regime, not from Iraq.

In fact, the main targets of Saddam's violence were the religious fundamentalists, many of whom supported such atrocities as that example. Saddam did not condone their beliefs or their willingness to let their beliefs harm others in such a way. Net result? He oppressed the majority of his population, because the majority of his population was abominable to his mind.

There are people now moving out of Iraq because they fear what things will be like when the US withdraws, and the islamic fundamentalist majority gets control (what is supposed to happen in a democracy, really: the majority rules). Exactly because they don't want to risk such things for failing to wear their head cloths or whatever.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:20:23 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		Are you talking about the "woman failing to wear her head covering" or the "acid bath" part?  I'm certain I heard that Saddam used acid baths.  If I'm wrong about the woman not wearing her head covering, I was actually trying to be .... metaphorical?  Saddam's campaign of torture wasn't limited to political dissidents or members of particular religious sects.  To my knowledge, anyone could have been subject to being whisked away and tortured.  I'm I'm incorrect then I stand corrected.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 7:21:55 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

No I don't. I see where Bush has incarcerrated


I don't see how, without Due Process and Equal Protection, Bush can lawfully incarcerate anyone.

quote:


illegal combatants and those suspected of committing or conspiring to commit acts of terrorism against the U.S.


Y'all got EVIDENCE to support those charges? Because if you do, those CRIMINALS MUST BE CHARGED, TRIED, and if found Guilty, EXECUTED in full accordance with The Law.

Terrorism, and Conspiring to Commit are CRIMES under U.S. Law. This *IS* a Constitutional Republic, isn't it? Do I need to explain the special significance of the Rule of Law under a Constitutional Republic?

Or are you advocating the OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE?

Are you really SOFT ON CRIME? SOFT ON TERRORIST CRIMINALS?

Or do you just hate the fundamental underpinnings of Justice and Our American Way of Life?



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/31/2007 7:25:08 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 100
Page:   <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is a term originally coined by the Nazis. Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094