RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is a term originally coined by the Nazis.

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:30:28 PM

lockedaway

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I never raised the Necessary and Proper clause in that thread. :) I guess you don't remember.

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:32:38 PM

popeye1250

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As I was turning the al qeada guys ankles into pulp with a ball-peen hammer I'd mention the U.S. Constitution to him Fargle.

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:33:43 PM

farglebargle

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Huh? What's your point? That the UCHR doesn't count, despite our promotion of it all these years?

Ok, so?

1. Define: Constitutional Republic

2. Explain the meaning of the phrase: "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".

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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:33:57 PM

lockedaway

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lololol Fargle has an agenda Popeye and getting people drawn into the same repetitive debates is part of it.

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:35:04 PM

farglebargle

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I have an agenda?

Enlighten us.

What is it?

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:35:15 PM

LordODiscipline

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Fargle:

He is right to the extent that he carries it.

There have been some significant studys about the efficacy of "torture", how to effectively implement it, and what is effective.

The US Military has very strict rules about what is and what is not allowed - with a consideration toward the Geneva Convention, the UCMJ and the studies aforementioned.

By most standards what THEY USE is not "torture" but is characterized as "enhanced interogation"

The legal and ethical limits of these actions must meet specific guidleines and specific timings based on the character of the person interrogated, the actionable event, and the manner of capture.

They are not doing the things alluded to - waterboarding, nails, etc.

However, the US government in the guise of the intelligence services is using othe countries and other resources to interrogate these prisoners (including the use of "waterboarding") because of the limitations the military has ingrained within the system of jurisprudence and behavior which it uses and is regulated by.

The givernment came to use these techniques because *with every generation faced with a crisis of catastrophic proportions within an ethically based society there comes the question of "why not?"*.

"Why should we not use techniques which are considered effective by people through millenia?"

They are forgetting basis for the rejection within the country proper and the incredible studies conducted (not only by this country - but, most extensively by the former Soviet Republic and by which we have based some of our determinations and restrictions)

But, enough of that...

The rhetoiric of your posting (re: "Nazis") is silly and smacks of inflamtion of emotional verve against alleged established policies of this government... it is not a rational argument- only an argument... and, in that it loses sway with people who simply want the facts so that they might make up their own mind wihtout a lot of bull sh*t tossed about as though it were contributing to a discussion - when in reality, it is actually contributing to divisivness... and, that is a Jeffersonian technique.

~J

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:35:29 PM

lockedaway

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Wow Fargle, that isn't what you said in the prior thread!!! Whoooo boy...you humped that UDHR argument off and on all night and you never admitted that it didn't apply! Why the change?

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:37:18 PM

farglebargle

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I'm haven't been discussing the UDHR in this thread at all, have I?

Nope.

1. Define: Constitutional Republic

2. Explain the meaning of the phrase: "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:38:50 PM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

Fargle:

The rhetoiric of your posting (re: "Nazis") is silly and smacks of inflamtion of emotional verve against alleged established policies of this government... it is not a rational argument- only an argument... and, in that it loses sway with people who simply want the facts so that they might make up their own mind wihtout a lot of bull sh*t tossed about as though it were contributing to a discussion - when in reality, it is actually contributing to divisivness... and, that is a Jeffersonian technique.

~J

If you had read the link in the original post, you would have known that the documentary evidence shown in the article documents the Nazi governments use of the very same weasel words for their "Enhanced Interrogation" techniques. In fact, they INVENTED THE TERM.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/31/2007 6:39:11 PM >

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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:41:02 PM

lockedaway

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Noooo...(pats Fargle's head)but you raised the UDHR in that prior thread just like everything else you have raised in the past hour have been from that prior thread. See the nexus??

What I'm asking you is very relevant. In the prior post you refused to acknowledge that the UDHR was a meaningless and feckless argument. Now you admit that it was. Why? What changed?

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:42:35 PM

farglebargle

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What were your responses to my questions:

1. Define: Constitutional Republic

2. Explain the meaning of the phrase: "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".

in that thread?

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:42:59 PM

LordODiscipline

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Again -

Just because someone else stated it in another article, it makes it no less silly, baseless and inflamatory rhetoric.

If you want to carry this line of thought furher - stating it was not you making the statement and justifying it by pointing to an article is like saying the American government is not responsible for torture if they do not do it, but only supervise the Saudi nationals in the action.

Bad logic and poor morality.

~J

PS: The article states that they "invented the term" but, offers no evidence of it except to say that they used it...

I use the term "shit" - I cannot claim the invention of it, or the origination of the meaning where it is collowquial to the institutions I hang out in.

< Message edited by LordODiscipline -- 5/31/2007 6:44:58 PM >

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:43:15 PM

lockedaway

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Oh...by the way, this isn't the first time you have compared the U.S. or aspects of the U.S. or the current administration, what have you, to the Nazis. I don't know whether LordofDiscipline is aware of that but at least in 2 prior threads you have invoked comparisons of this country to Nazi Germany.

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:44:44 PM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Noooo...(pats Fargle's head)but you raised the UDHR in that prior thread just like everything else you have raised in the past hour have been from that prior thread. See the nexus??

What I'm asking you is very relevant. In the prior post you refused to acknowledge that the UDHR was a meaningless and feckless argument. Now you admit that it was. Why? What changed?

See, that's the problem. I suppose it's my fault for giving too much credit.

I didn't change my position. I dismissed your invocation if it, as relevant to my inquiry, specifically,

1. Define: Constitutional Republic

2. Explain the meaning of the phrase: "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".

Forgive me for not being condescendingly patronizing, and spelling it out so explicitly.

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:45:22 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

If it was shown that coercive interrogation produced no worthwhile information then I wouldn't support it. It would be a waste of time. But coercive interrogation has produced results, at least so say those who employed it. Should I call them liars because coercive interrogation is considered torture irrespective of where on the torture spectrum it falls? No, if I'm going to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to give it to the service personnel that has to deal with these terrorists.

Tell me, if coercive interrogation was proven to give valuable intel, would you support it?

lockedaway:
You have not cited for us your proof that torture works. So what does this tell us about your position and your ability to substantiate it?
thompson

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:45:47 PM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Oh...by the way, this isn't the first time you have compared the U.S. or aspects of the U.S. or the current administration, what have you, to the Nazis. I don't know whether LordofDiscipline is aware of that but at least in 2 prior threads you have invoked comparisons of this country to Nazi Germany.

Did you read the article, to which this entire thread refers?

I *suspect* not, because that charge is very much answered in the article.

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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:47:08 PM

farglebargle

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quote:

PS: The article states that they "invented the term" but, offers no evidence of it except to say that they used it...

Anyone got an earlier citation?

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:49:43 PM

lockedaway

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Re-read what I said. Try to focus on the part where I say "giving the benefit of the doubt". Now you understand what that means...right? I never said I had conclusive proof for one side or the other, did I???? Nope, I said that the people that have employed it, specifically water boarding, was that it worked. Now who am I going to give the benefit of the doubt to? Am I going to excoriate members of our military or our intelligence for using it although I find it reprehensible? No...I'm not. If they say it works and that they have obtained valuable intel then I'm going to say "do it, then."

Does that answer your question? Now, hows about answering mine. IF you had conclusive proof that enhanced interrogation worked, would you support the use of it. Yes.....or......No.

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:50:34 PM

farglebargle

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1. Define: Constitutional Republic

2. Explain the meaning of the phrase: "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights".

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 6:51:54 PM

lockedaway

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"Did you read the article, to which this entire thread refers?

I *suspect* not, because that charge is very much answered in the article."

What the hell does the above have to do with the relevant point that I raised, which is that you repeatedly compare the U.S., or some aspect of the U.S., to Nazi Germany???

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