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RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 8:29:30 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

To be precise, it is a stance that relies on a claim to moral superiority.


~nod~

Much mainstream morality in any nation of the world depends on such a claim or, at least, makes it implicitly; such is part of the problem of moral absolutism.

Have to say I enjoy your posts, as I usually do, Kirata.

quote:

Whether or not it is superior, or even moral at all, is a separate matter. Presenting the logic by which you arrive at the GOOD is this situation creates a problem. When "moral" choices are arrived at by reason, reason is determining your actions -- not morality.


There is a certain reciprocal aspect to reasoning and morality, and such is indeed desireable to my mind, for else there would be no opportunity for ethics to become morality, with the net result that morality starts out with instincts and then evolves in an arbitrary direction by exposure and habituation.

quote:

There goes the moral claim. The next duck is your logic.


I believe that duck is down, too.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 8:33:13 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I see where Bush has incarcerrated illegal combatants[...]


AFAIK, Gitmo, for instance, holds many people who were not combatants, and certainly used to do so (according to the US military, at least). Further, combatant kind of implies a war, and most of these did not participate in any declared war, as I recall.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 8:43:32 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Are you talking about the "woman failing to wear her head covering" or the "acid bath" part?


The combination of them; that is, the latter following as a punishment for the former.

quote:

I'm certain I heard that Saddam used acid baths.


Quite possible. It was not on the long list of accusations I have heard, but I'm not claiming that list to be complete. I'm just pointing this out. Basically, Saddam took popeye's approach to dealing with religious fundamentalism. Of course, with a significant part of your population being religious fundamentalists, that's going to look more objectionable than popeye's "one-on-one" to most.

quote:

If I'm wrong about the woman not wearing her head covering, I was actually trying to be .... metaphorical?  Saddam's campaign of torture wasn't limited to political dissidents or members of particular religious sects.  To my knowledge, anyone could have been subject to being whisked away and tortured.  I'm I'm incorrect then I stand corrected.


There's a lot of stuff we can say about Saddam's regime. Many of them bad.

However, there is precedent for the idea that it wasn't such a bad thing after all, certainly not the best place for the US to spend trillions of dollars, if human rights or the safety of American citizens was the goal. That point should be pretty clear, I hope.

Some friends of nephandi lived under Tito's regime.

As they said, it was harsh. There was a lot of bad shit going down, and he was a hard man. When he died, people thought everything would get better, because they could now do as they pleased. We now know how that went. Long story short, they now live in Norway instead.

Similarly, acquantances of hers are now busily packing their things to move out of Iraq. With Saddam gone, their lives are over if they stay. They certainly didn't support the guy, or like what he did, but they can see what is coming.

I'm ambivalent about taking down Saddam, per se, but my main concern is that the country may end up going down the drain no matter what the US tries to do, and as a consequence of taking down Saddam. There is not enough money in the coffers to bring the entire nation up to date.

If you really want to do some good for your troops, send solar-powered TVs and laptops to the Iraqi people, or somesuch. That will change things a whole lot faster than the military effort. (Note the caveat about the availability of electricity; solar powered is a must, until someone decides to build a national power grid.)

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 8:45:36 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline


If we portend to be something 'moral' and a 'country of laws' (which we do) then it is not fitting that we deny others basic human rights (a cause this country championed internationally for the last 60 years) where it is convenient and state that other countries are terroristic states for holding people without recourse to basic legal services....
 
It only makes us hypocrits.


actually we had rights the few years after the constitution was signed, the last 60 years was spent destroying those rights and converting them to priviledges, dont believe me? try asserting your rights sometime and see where you land!  :)


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 8:46:59 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Geez....wow....OK.  The terrorists do have rights.  You do realize that, right?  They are rights conveyed to them under the Hague Convention and they fall under the heading of illegal combatants.  K?  The U.S. Constitution does not apply.



exactly what is a terrorist?  someone who pisses on my rose garden?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 8:59:03 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I had almost given up completely about your reasoning (or lack thereof) skills.


I hope you will find mine more to your liking.

I'll do one side of that discussion for now, and lockedaway can make his side, if he will.

quote:

Humanely treated vs. enhanced interrogation techniques.


This point is mostly irrelevant. As said elsewhere in the thread, the point is being circumvented by using foreign countries' participation so that American soldiers don't end up crossing that line themselves, making it a moral issue, not one of adherence to the Hague convention.

quote:

We are at war against a tactic, not a specific enemy.


That is not a recognized form of warfare.

It is, however, an attempt at solving a problem. Others have been involved in that struggle before the US decided to get into it, and have dealt better with it (IMO); e.g. terrorism in Great Britain, Germany, France, Spain, and Israel, all of which are on the western side of the equation.

It is clear, from the rise in occurence of global terrorism, that the current approach is not giving tangible results of a desired nature. Instead, much research has concluded that there is a causal relationship between the efforts of the "war on terror" and the rise in global terrorism, with the former as the cause of the latter.

More to the point, without due process, anyone is a potential enemy combattant, which makes such a war into a war without a scope, thus applying equally to all of humanity, even if it is currently carried out against a limited subsegment. Declaring war on the world is not a way to solve the problem.

The most relevant objection I have, however, is that a war on terror must include a war on terrorism supported by the US government. I am sure you are familiar with the various cases where this would be the case. Colin Powell certainly was, and the statement about not being proud of the history of American foreign relations in this regard attests to this.

Training the Mujahadeen in how to conduct terrorism against the Soviets may or may not have been a brilliant move at the time, but it should certainly be examined closer when one declares a war on those kinds of tactics. Any battle should start by excising the enemy from one's homeland, yet this one does not.

quote:

Compare and contrast treatment of Gitmo prisoners vs. soldiers serving in the Green Zone in Baghdad.


The comparison is simple, the contrast stark. I do not need to complete it for you; there has been more literature on this than what this thread can bear.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 9:39:12 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Oh...by the way, this isn't the first time you have compared the U.S. or aspects of the U.S. or the current administration, what have you, to the Nazis.  I don't know whether LordofDiscipline is aware of that but at least in 2 prior threads you have invoked comparisons of this country to Nazi Germany.


might want to look at this
http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step4.htm


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 9:44:11 PM   
popeye1250


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And if this isn't "a declared war" the Geneva Conventions wouldn't apply, would they?
"Gimme them pliers, Porcupine!"

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 9:59:35 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I gotta tell ya, pal, I really don't care a hoot in hell about your alleged concerns because you may have had family that suffered in WWII.  See....millions upon millions of families suffered during WWII and it is still bullsh*t for you to compare any aspect of this country to Nazi Germany.  It is an emotional, stupid and disrectful comparison and you make it all of the time.  Now I corrected you once before about comparing this country to Nazi Germany and I told you that a valid comparison was to compare us to Peru.  After I pointed that out to you, you became noticeably quiet.  Nope....you LIKE TO COMPARE US TO THE NAZIS.  Why?  Is it in your family history?  Is it because the jews were one of the major targets of the Holocaust?  What is it?



Will Americans push for a similar repeal of Bush's Military Commissions Act? A legal mandate for absolute power that greases the skids for American citizens to be labeled enemy combatants, disappeared and tortured?

Left-leaning commentators and blogs are aghast that the bill would pave the way for immigrants to be deported or detained in a similar vein to the world war two Japanese internment program - a sentiment that only emboldens Neo-Con cheerleaders to further praise the legislation.

The crux of the issue that left-gatekeepers have played their part in overshadowing is that the bill allows U.S. citizens to be targeted as terrorists, kidnapped and stripped of all legal rights guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution. Top legal scholars have expressed their shock at the scope of the so-called "compromise" legislation.

Yale Law Professor Bruce Ackerman states in the L.A. Times , "The compromise legislation....authorizes the president to seize American citiz ens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States. And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights."

Similarly, law Professor Marty Lederman explains : "this [subsection (ii) of the definition of 'unlawful enemy combatant'] means that if the Pentagon says you're an unlawful enemy combatant -- using whatever criteria they wish -- then as far as Congress, and U.S. law, is concerned, you are one, whether or not you have had any connection to 'hostilities' at all."

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/terror_laws_will_americans_seek_repeal_constitution_killing_acts.htm




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 10:04:11 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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how about this one?

Bush makes power grab
Posted: May 23, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern


President Bush, without so much as issuing a press statement, on May 9 signed a directive that granted near dictatorial powers to the office of the president in the event of a national emergency declared by the president.
The "National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive," with the dual designation of NSPD-51, as a National Security Presidential Directive, and HSPD-20, as a Homeland Security Presidential Directive, establishes under the office of president a new National Continuity Coordinator.

That job, as the document describes, is to make plans for "National Essential Functions" of all federal, state, local, territorial, and tribal governments, as well as private sector organizations to continue functioning under the president's directives in the event of a national emergency.
The directive loosely defines "catastrophic emergency" as "any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions."

When the president determines a catastrophic emergency has occurred, the president can take over all government functions and direct all private sector activities to ensure we will emerge from the emergency with an "enduring constitutional government."
Translated into layman's terms, when the president determines a national emergency has occurred, the president can declare to the office of the presidency powers usually assumed by dictators to direct any and all government and business activities until the emergency is declared over.

Ironically, the directive sees no contradiction in the assumption of dictatorial powers by the president with the goal of maintaining constitutional continuity through an emergency.
The directive specifies that the assistant to the president for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism will be designated as the National Continuity Coordinator.
Further established is a Continuity Policy Coordination Committee, chaired by a senior director from the Homeland Security Council staff, designated by the National Continuity Coordinator, to be "the main day-to-day forum for such policy coordination."

Currently, the assistant to the president for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism is Frances Fragos Townsend.
Townsend spent 13 years at the Justice Department before moving to the U.S. Coast Guard where she served as assistant commandant for intelligence.
She is a White House staff member in the executive office of the president who also chairs the Homeland Security Council, which as a counterpart to the National Security Council reports directly to the president.

The directive issued May 9 makes no attempt to reconcile the powers created there for the National Continuity Coordinator with the National Emergency Act. As specified by U.S. Code Title 50, Chapter 34, Subchapter II, Section 1621, the National Emergency Act allows that the president may declare a national emergency but requires that such proclamation "shall immediately be transmitted to the Congress and published in the Federal Register."

A Congressional Research Service study notes that under the National Emergency Act, the president "may seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate the operation of private enterprise, restrict travel, and, in a variety of ways, control the lives of United States citizens."

The CRS study notes that the National Emergency Act sets up congress as a balance empowered to "modify, rescind, or render dormant such delegated emergency authority," if Congress believes the president has acted inappropriately.

NSPD-51/ HSPD-20 appears to supersede the National Emergency Act by creating the new position of National Continuity Coordinator without any specific act of Congress authorizing the position.

NSPD-51/ HSPD-20 also makes no reference whatsoever to Congress. The language of the May 9 directive appears to negate any a requirement that the president submit to Congress a determination that a national emergency exists, suggesting instead that the powers of the executive order can be implemented without any congressional approval or oversight.
Homeland Security spokesperson Russ Knocke affirmed that the Homeland Security Department will be implementing the requirements of NSPD-51/ HSPD-20 under Townsend's direction.


The White House had no comment.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55824




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/31/2007 10:24:42 PM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 10:16:16 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

It is an emotional, stupid and disrectful comparison and you make it all of the time.  Now I corrected you once before about comparing this country to Nazi Germany and I told you that a valid comparison was to compare us to Peru.  After I pointed that out to you, you became noticeably quiet.  Nope....you LIKE TO COMPARE US TO THE NAZIS.  Why?  Is it in your family history?  Is it because the jews were one of the major targets of the Holocaust?  What is it?


Try this locked; "because we are fuckin nazis"!  If what i posted so far isnt enough i have a wonderful library of all the us/nazi parrallels and i am sure i can put a 3 pages of info for you since it appears you have not looked into it.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 10:29:05 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
There are so many bad, unbelievable things in Bush's "Comprehensive Immigration Bill" that have absolutely nothing to do with immigration or securing our borders!
That's why so many people are against it.
I think it's the preliminary act towards doing away with the Constitution.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 10:35:40 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

There are so many bad, unbelievable things in Bush's "Comprehensive Immigration Bill" that have absolutely nothing to do with immigration or securing our borders!
That's why so many people are against it.
I think it's the preliminary act towards doing away with the Constitution.


well its like congress doesnt exist with that asshole, signs shit into "law" faster than anyone can fight it in court to undo any of it, and it always gives all the "power" to him.   As far as i am concerned not to make the nazi connection, in as much as the way adolf took over germany is the height of naiviety, or party politics, not suire if there is a difference


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 11:05:23 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And if this isn't "a declared war" the Geneva Conventions wouldn't apply, would they?
"Gimme them pliers, Porcupine!"


Let me get this straight.

Since they are terrorists, and not "people," the Bill of Rights does not apply.

Since we are not at war, but since the "enemy," the Hague Convention applies.

Wait, since they are "terrorists" and not "enemy," the Hague Convention does not apply.

Wait, since we are at war, the Geneva Convention applies.

Wait, since we never declared war, the Geneva Convention does not apply.

I wish, for once, that the war supporters would make a comment that actually made some sort of sense
and had legitimate reasoning and legal merits.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 5/31/2007 11:33:48 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And if this isn't "a declared war" the Geneva Conventions wouldn't apply, would they?
"Gimme them pliers, Porcupine!"


Let me get this straight.

Since they are terrorists, and not "people," the Bill of Rights does not apply.

Since we are not at war, but since the "enemy," the Hague Convention applies.

Wait, since they are "terrorists" and not "enemy," the Hague Convention does not apply.

Wait, since we are at war, the Geneva Convention applies.

Wait, since we never declared war, the Geneva Convention does not apply.

I wish, for once, that the war supporters would make a comment that actually made some sort of sense
and had legitimate reasoning and legal merits.

Sinergy



The problem i have with all this is that we are at war.  War has not been officially declared.  The president took us to war for over 5 years now.  What happened to congress?  How can you have an enemy if you are not at war?    How can you have an enemy combatant if you have no enemy?

Drawing the logical conclusion is that "if in fact we are at war" and congress is not involved and congress has given this power to the president as well as several other powers, then the president has "near" dictatorial power.

How can we be at war if it is not declared? 

Next: what the fuck is terrorism?   No one will step up to the plate to define what a terrorist is.

Its a shapeshifter any thing, any definition, any label anyone wants it to be.  terrorism is dimensionless and has no specific meaning, much like enemy combatant.  Hell that can be a computer game.  

The patriot act clearly defines "any crime" as an act of terrorism for pete sakes yet these people refuse to see that these laws are against the american people not some damn straw man jihadist.

Add that to the recent removal of "probable cause" and it is no longer required to go through the FISA court for a search warrant.  Reasonable doubt is now ALL that is needed to search and seize and hold you with no requirement to let you get an attorney should you be labeled an enemy combatent, terrorist suspect etc etc etc....   add to that the miliaty act nopw the HR order and on and on and on...  and to my shock seemingly educated people are totally blind to what is IN THEIR FACE.

People read the military act, patriot act, all these resolutions and if your pants arent full when you are done may as well just put on your swastika armband cuz you are a nazi who doesnt know it yet, or hasnt figured it out yet.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 6/1/2007 12:15:01 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And if this isn't "a declared war" the Geneva Conventions wouldn't apply, would they?
"Gimme them pliers, Porcupine!"


Let me get this straight.

Since they are terrorists, and not "people," the Bill of Rights does not apply.

Since we are not at war, but since the "enemy," the Hague Convention applies.

Wait, since they are "terrorists" and not "enemy," the Hague Convention does not apply.

Wait, since we are at war, the Geneva Convention applies.

Wait, since we never declared war, the Geneva Convention does not apply.

I wish, for once, that the war supporters would make a comment that actually made some sort of sense
and had legitimate reasoning and legal merits.

Sinergy



Sinergy, I don't make the rules I just want to see those guys in GTMO do some ass pyramids before they execute them.
And I don't "support" the war I want our Troops home and for our govt to stop pissing our money away on this mess.
And no, terrorists don't get any rights under the bill of rights, they stop at our border. That's another mistake that Bush is making trying to install a "democracy" in a foreign country. Good fuckin luck with that.
I don't think we're more "moral" than anyone else, I don't know who started that B.S. but I do want to be more brutal than the terrorists are to the terrorists.
But, that's just me.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 6/1/2007 3:53:04 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And if this isn't "a declared war" the Geneva Conventions wouldn't apply, would they?
"Gimme them pliers, Porcupine!"


No, but the regular bits about how to treat foreign nationals would apply.

Essentially, without a declared war, you're just grabbing "random" citizens from other countries and torturing them. Not something the world at large feels entirely comfortable with, but everyone's pretty much playing along right now, hoping the US will come about in time ... guess you could call it "appeasement".

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 6/1/2007 4:04:49 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Next: what the fuck is terrorism?   No one will step up to the plate to define what a terrorist is.


Not quite correct. There have been proper definitions given. But those are not acceptable to a government that fits the bill, so we're left with no proper definitions used.

quote:

Its a shapeshifter any thing, any definition, any label anyone wants it to be.  terrorism is dimensionless and has no specific meaning, much like enemy combatant.  Hell that can be a computer game.  


I would suggest reading "Lingua Tertii Imperii", or whatever it was called.

Summarizing its contents here will undoubtedly spawn replies that will get the thread shut down, however.

quote:

The patriot act clearly defines "any crime" as an act of terrorism for pete sakes yet these people refuse to see that these laws are against the american people not some damn straw man jihadist.


It is not a new thing. Stage magicians use it all the time. It's a sleight-of-hand thing. If you can keep the audience focused on something other than what you're doing, you can get away with anything, and keep them believing whatever you wish.

The writings of security analyst Bruce Schneier is interesting in this regard. He's done some official work, and his main work on cryptography is considered the gold standard by many, if not most, who work with cryptography without being sufficiently mathematically trained to do cryptanalysis.

He's written some stuff on the current situation, including the book "Beyond Fear", and has done a bit of blogging about the idiotic "security" measures he encounters.

quote:

People read the military act, patriot act, all these resolutions and if your pants arent full when you are done may as well just put on your swastika armband cuz you are a nazi who doesnt know it yet, or hasnt figured it out yet.


There's not necessarily anything nationalist about the current American socialism, and there is not yet any genocide on native soil (although there have been things that are as bad on foreign soil). The only country under direct occupation is Iraq, and if an exit opportunity pops up, they'll probably pull back; right now, in the opinions of one Marine, they're just "staying the course" because they have no exit strategy.

So, in short, it's not nazism at the moment, although it is converging on totalitarianism.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 6/1/2007 4:11:27 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, I don't make the rules I just want to see those guys in GTMO do some ass pyramids before they execute them.


The ones currently in there, who might be terrorists, or the ones that were originally in there, including people who the military let go because they had conclusively determined that they'd been unlawfully imprisoned for several years and weren't terrorists or even connected to any?

quote:

And I don't "support" the war I want our Troops home and for our govt to stop pissing our money away on this mess.


The real problem with the war, is that pulling the troops home now is a surefire way to get more terrorist activity. Not just the bit about emboldening them, but the bit about leaving the main obstacle to Iran's control of the middle east in ruins with a civil war on their hands, and just teeming with new recruits. There's no exit strategy.

The screwup goes beyond finances and the- by now- obsolete issue of the original "justification" for going there in the first place.

quote:

And no, terrorists don't get any rights under the bill of rights, they stop at our border. That's another mistake that Bush is making trying to install a "democracy" in a foreign country. Good fuckin luck with that.


Installing a democracy in a country where a slight majority would like to exterminate a somewhat smaller minority can only go one way in the long run. Everyone told him so, and Bush probably knew himself, so I'm not sure it's a mistake.

quote:

I don't think we're more "moral" than anyone else, I don't know who started that B.S. but I do want to be more brutal than the terrorists are to the terrorists.


For what reason, exactly? Do you thrive on terrorism? Or is there some other reason to give them more ammo, and lessen international support? And, what is a "terrorist" in this context, exactly? By what due process do you propose people be included in, or excluded from, that group?

quote:

But, that's just me.


Unfortunately not.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: "enhanced interrogation techniques" - is ... - 6/1/2007 5:09:15 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

YOU say it doesn't do any good but then we have people that say that we have gotten good intel from it.  So I should believe...who???  Your position, I assume, is that we should take a Middle Eastern terrorist, lock them up, give them a Koran, three square meals a day, activity time and prayer time and ask them....what?  "C'mon guys, tell us where the sarin is."  Do you think that is going to work?  Just to make it clear, you don't think we should interrogate terrorists or do anything coercive to obtain information, is that right?


You assume incorrectly just about everything.  So, with the good intel that we are getting, where is the sarin.....????????????

Um, I said I would torture in this hypo----not because I wanted any information, I don't give a good godamn about information but because it amuses me.

Mr. Blonde

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 140
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