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RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 8:14:57 PM   
pagansub77


Posts: 137
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		Smoking is evil. I've been puffing on the damn things for 30+ years. Recently, a friend with COPD had to have open heart surgery. I stayed with him for 2 weeks post surgery to help around the house and such. I smoked one or two cigarettes a day, out on the back patio. Shortly after that Master collared me. He prefers that I quit. Since I have already cut back so far, I am hopeful that leaving the last couple cigs behind will be easier. We will be moving into a place together by August and I fully intend to never smoke in that house.

He has pretty much made it a condition of remaining His; to me He is worth that.

ps77

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ps77
In the end everything will be okay.
If everything is not okay, then it's not the end.
Madness takes its toll...exact change only

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 8:24:38 PM   
SirMGD


Posts: 38
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		It's a more poignant and frustrating issue for me, since I have come full circle, after quitting for 10 years, and being the worst, most outspoken and irritable non-smoker you could imagine, then during a shall we say "very stressfull time", began smoking again. Now it seems nearly impossible to quit, mostly because I adore my tobacco. It is my only vice. I'm not trying to make excuses, say its my right to smoke, especially in any impolite circumstance, and the friend in question lives 4000 miles away, and I have never met her or been to her house, and if I were to visit, rest assured I'd not smoke out of respect and deference to her wishes, and dominance be damned.
So all my questioning here has been purely hypothetical.
Its just that, like TemptingNviceSub, I wonder at times exactly where the line is drawn, and how far submission and dominance go, and further take exception to the notion that dominants are somehow required to be some kind of luminous godlike beings, with no faults, vices or frailties, and if they do, have no right to call themselves dominant or Master/Mistress, since by showing such weaknesses, negate or disqualify themselves from precisely what they identify as.
We are after all, only human, even dominants, are we not?
So again, thanks for your insightful, intelligent replies. Now I have made an even stronger resolve to quit.

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 8:49:53 PM   
MsOpal


Posts: 244
Joined: 8/31/2006
Status: offline 		Good for you SirMGD, I wish you every success this time around.  As a huge smoker (back in my college days in prehistoric times, I selected my classes based in large part on whether or not the prof allowed smoking in class!!!!) I was for a while a 3 pack + a day smoker of European cigs, way more potent than the American ones!  I quit, cold turkey and stayed quit for right at 10 years.  Then, as you did, I went through a stressful situation and smoking was my "drug of choice".  I kept at it for 8 months, limited it to about 1 pack every 3 -4 days, and finally really stopping again was so much more difficult that time. I do soooo understand what you are going through, and you are intelligent enough to know how bad it is, you don't need us to tell you that.

All that said,  back in your first post you told her ...I think what you fail to see is that a man, me, or any man, could ever make you that happy. So happy you didn't care what his kisses smelled like, or his semen tasted like. They'd be trivialities, and hugely overshadowed by any possibility of the alternative~ not having him.

As for me, I simply would not be with anyone who smoked long enough that he might even come close to achieving that status.  Argent and I are in the process of "getting to know" a wonderful young lady that we have high hopes for ending up in our home.  She smokes, is trying to stop, and we have made it clear that #1 no one smokes in our home and #2 anyone collared to us will stop, period.  Patches, what ever it takes, and we will help her any way we can even paying for the patches.  But if she is to move here, it will be without the smokes.
Good luck to you!
MsOpal


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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 8:50:20 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Its just that, like TemptingNviceSub, I wonder at times exactly where the line is drawn, and how far submission and dominance go, and further take exception to the notion that dominants are somehow required to be some kind of luminous godlike beings, with no faults, vices or frailties, and if they do, have no right to call themselves dominant or Master/Mistress, since by showing such weaknesses, negate or disqualify themselves from precisely what they identify as.
We are after all, only human, even dominants, are we not?


I do not require my dominant to have no frailities, but I do require he has no addictions. I have kicked mine, and I would expect my dominant to be able to kick his. If I smoked I would look for a smoking dominant. Since I have been able to be self disciplined enough to kick the habit on my own I would expect the same type of self control in my dominant... I did not say that any dominant that smokes is not a weal twue dominant... they are as real and true as mine, but I would have trouble following their authority because deep down I would see myself as more disciplined than they were as far as having a relationship with me... it is not personal at all... I am sure there are many things about me that would not suit every dominant.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SirMGD)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 9:00:12 PM   
SirMGD


Posts: 38
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Its just that, like TemptingNviceSub, I wonder at times exactly where the line is drawn, and how far submission and dominance go, and further take exception to the notion that dominants are somehow required to be some kind of luminous godlike beings, with no faults, vices or frailties, and if they do, have no right to call themselves dominant or Master/Mistress, since by showing such weaknesses, negate or disqualify themselves from precisely what they identify as.
We are after all, only human, even dominants, are we not?


I do not require my dominant to have no frailities, but I do require he has no addictions. I have kicked mine, and I would expect my dominant to be able to kick his. If I smoked I would look for a smoking dominant. Since I have been able to be self disciplined enough to kick the habit on my own I would expect the same type of self control in my dominant... I did not say that any dominant that smokes is not a weal twue dominant... they are as real and true as mine, but I would have trouble following their authority because deep down I would see myself as more disciplined than they were as far as having a relationship with me... it is not personal at all... I am sure there are many things about me that would not suit every dominant.


I understand, believe me. But being dominant has little to do with such issues. If youre dominant, especially sexually, you just are, and you can do little to nothing about it. I have known vanilla women by the score who saw my dominance as a character flaw, which I merely needed to overcome. God knows there have been times I wished for nothing more than that I could have, and gave their assertions some deep consideration.
But in the end, I think we all know, we are what, and must be, as we are.

< Message edited by SirMGD -- 6/4/2007 9:04:59 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 10:05:54 PM   
smilingjaguar


Posts: 271
Status: offline 		I don't think smoking has that much to do with dominance and submission for me.  It is not something worth compromising.  I get migraines from cigarette smoke and have an um with enough problems with asthma that smoking is and always will be a deal breaker for me.  My current relationship started before I knew the effects the smoke had upon me, and he smoked when we first started going out.  He tried quitting many times.  When we realized that not being around smoke killed 75% of my migraines, he stopped smoking in our residence.  When he bought me a car, he swore never to smoke in it.  I used to ferry construction workers to/from the airport, and every time they started trying to convince me to allow "just one" I told them point blank that my husband made a $400 payment every month on this car and he didn't smoke in it.  They were welcome to have their cigarette outside of my car.  He started trying to quit but didn't do well with pressure, so we made the agreement that he would stop smoking before we had children.  He stopped permanently 2 weeks after finding out I was pregnant.  I lost my father to lung cancer, and he knew there was a void there that I didn't want my ums to have.  I admire what it took to quit and the love he shows all of his girls every day that he does not resume smoking.

If he were to start back smoking tomorrow, he knows it is a deal breaker.  I spend enough time keeping my um breathing without irritating her lungs further and will not tolerate anyone in my home that cannot understand the need for clean air.  Is it submissive?  That depends on the relationship.  The first directive of our relationship is that I am to see to the health and welfare of the ums before any of my other responsibilities.  Allowing a smoker in my home, even if it was him, would violate that directive.  Many things are submissive or not depending upon much more than having one's will walked over.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 10:07:48 PM   
SirMGD


Posts: 38
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsOpal
As for me, I simply would not be with anyone who smoked long enough that he might even come close to achieving that status. Argent and I are in the process of "getting to know" a wonderful young lady that we have high hopes for ending up in our home. She smokes, is trying to stop, and we have made it clear that #1 no one smokes in our home and #2 anyone collared to us will stop, period. Patches, what ever it takes, and we will help her any way we can even paying for the patches. But if she is to move here, it will be without the smokes.


So, conversely to my questions, you expect her to serve you in your home, enduring whatever stresses and even punishments she might have need of, no doubt pull her weight, do work and sundry chores at your beck and call, perform sexual services no doubt, for both you and your partner in some way, if I may presume, yet you further would deny her what could easily be seen as a minor addiction, albeit not by many here...lol.
I'm sorry, but that truly amazes me. Were I a strict non-smoker, I'd allow my sub to have her vice, perhaps outside, but still, I should consider it the least of courtesies to her, in all "polite and civilized" norms of a free society, without condescension or judgement, since she broke no laws, and as an adult, with freedom of choice intact, but for my wishes, could refuse at her whim, and be well within her rights as a human being to do so.
Sigh, perhaps I'm too lenient.

(in reply to MsOpal)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 10:18:19 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

I'm sorry, but that truly amazes me. Were I a strict non-smoker, I'd allow my sub to have her vice, perhaps outside, but still, I should consider it the least of courtesies to her, in all "polite and civilized" norms of a free society, without condescension or judgement, since she broke no laws, and as an adult, with freedom of choice intact, but for my wishes, could refuse at her whim, and be well within her rights as a human being to do so.
Sigh, perhaps I'm too lenient.


Well I understand that you feel that way, but if I were to start smoking again and was unwilling to quit, I would be dismissed from Daddy's life. He says that smokers taste bad, and he enjoys giving oral sex, so for him it is not a little thing even if I smoked outside.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SirMGD)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 10:33:55 PM   
smilingjaguar


Posts: 271
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirMGD
I'm sorry, but that truly amazes me. Were I a strict non-smoker, I'd allow my sub to have her vice, perhaps outside, but still, I should consider it the least of courtesies to her, in all "polite and civilized" norms of a free society, without condescension or judgement, since she broke no laws, and as an adult, with freedom of choice intact, but for my wishes, could refuse at her whim, and be well within her rights as a human being to do so.
Sigh, perhaps I'm too lenient.


If you hang around a bit, you'll also notice quite a few subs/slaves who cannot have things such as alcohol or junk food without permission of their dom.  There's nothing illegal about those things either.  It's about the lifestyle one chooses to live and whether the relationship could exist under those terms. 

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 10:48:16 PM   
SirMGD


Posts: 38
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: smilingjaguar

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirMGD
I'm sorry, but that truly amazes me. Were I a strict non-smoker, I'd allow my sub to have her vice, perhaps outside, but still, I should consider it the least of courtesies to her, in all "polite and civilized" norms of a free society, without condescension or judgement, since she broke no laws, and as an adult, with freedom of choice intact, but for my wishes, could refuse at her whim, and be well within her rights as a human being to do so.
Sigh, perhaps I'm too lenient.


If you hang around a bit, you'll also notice quite a few subs/slaves who cannot have things such as alcohol or junk food without permission of their dom.  There's nothing illegal about those things either.  It's about the lifestyle one chooses to live and whether the relationship could exist under those terms. 


Dont let my nilla cone fool you. I just had to register a new nick, since my last on had erm, problems.
I know only too well what terms and sacrifices are expected of and accepted by some, and wonder at much of it, but won't stoop to denigrating much of it here, since it will only heap further chastening on me, much like the nazi's chastened those who dared disagree with them, and further make me a prime example of the very condescencion i did previously abhor...lol

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 10:54:09 PM   
LadyHeart


Posts: 561
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		My Master/husband is a former smoker. A few months ago he started up again. He was very considerate. He smoked away from the house. But his breath still reeked of it, and so did his clothes and his skin. Worse, when he smokes he snores. I wasn't getting a single undisturbed night. If he hadn't quit again, it would have broken our marriage, let alone the D/s relationship. I married a non smoker, so for me it was a deal breaker. I just wish I had shares in "Nicocure" because it was the only thing that worked for him and saved our relationship.
:))
LH

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/4/2007 11:18:30 PM   
TigressFL


Posts: 239
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		I am a smoker and as a result I have been rejected for that reason. I have no issue with that beasue it is just a compatibility issue. Would I give up smoking or smoking in my own house for a slave? No, I would not. When I stop it will be for me and no one else. With regard to your story all I can think is perhaps the dominant did not like smoke in the house (I know many smokers that do not smoke in their own house) and so perhaps it had nothing to do with the sub making the decision for the dom, she just made everyone aware of the rule. 

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RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/5/2007 1:17:53 AM   
Wildnfreehrt2004


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

Julia..I do fully understand your objections and that of many here..I guess my thoughts seem to stem from the fact that many a sub/slave has crumpled under other demands made by Dominants that would of floored me, but yet when it comes to smoking and all of a sudden some of these same submissives, suddenly seem to challenge quite vociferously on this issue..As said ,interesting..Tempting


Perhaps others see it as more serious subject than others? Some look at it as a personal habit, while others look at it as a health issue. It isn't like leaving dirty socks  on the floor, or the toilet seat up - it's a health issue. If the master were an alcoholic or ex-drug user and decided to jump off the wagon after many years of sobriety, would the submissive/slave be expected to serve him the alcohol/drugs in her home? In front of UM's? What if he had to diet because of a heart condition, should she feed him meals known to worsen his health?

If it's a hard limit, it should be discussed and valued as such at the beginning of a relationship.

Wildy

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/5/2007 2:20:18 AM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		It sounds to me like you do not respect the hard limits of others you interact with. It is very difficult to maintain a BDSM relationship with the understanding that you will violate the hard limits of your partner.

No, I do not view your nicotine addiction as a "hard limit," such as a survival need. Choose a partner with compatible hard limits.

(in reply to MamaDomme)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/5/2007 4:49:18 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

Wow, I am rather surprised by the staunch stance that a lot of the submissives have taken on this issue. Some of these same submissives that say that they would be heartbroken at their Dominants disappointment, or say that submission is also about that which you do even when you do not wish or like to do it. Now are saying that A) They would TELL their Dominant to take it outside..B) Inform him that they will not be obedient in this..C) leave the relationship, even one maybe of many years?..I guess if this was an issue already addressed and agreed upon no smoking..then ok...but if it were one that was not, and say the Dominant decided to start smoking again, then you as a submissive will tell him NO? that he cannot, or that you will leave? or you will kvetch and complain that he stinks or tastes bad??...interesting....Tempting


Or we as bad submissives will be unable to serve him since we'll be in the hospital with pneumonia.

My ex was a smoker. From the moment I got pregnant he smoked only outside. I still had three or four sinus infections yearly and one or two bouts of bronchitis yearly, just from what stuck to his clothes and from sitting outside with him while he smoked.

Our ums still suffered ear infections repeatedly.

If these kinds of health problems were incurred by a man who never smoked inside, then what do you imagine would have been the result if he smoked inside the house?

As far as the fact that it wasn't discussed prior means he still can do it, nonsense. There are a great many socalled doms who wait until they've collared someone to announce the sub has to have bi experiences. Just because they didn't discuss it doesn't mean he gets his way. Consent still applies. Especially in matters that impact one's health, both physical and emotional.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/5/2007 6:49:33 AM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline 		Greetings
 
I don't see NOT smoking in someone's house as an issue about enforcing rules in a dynamic sense. I have friends who do not smoke ( slaves ), and when anyone visits their home ( Dominant or submissive ), out of common courtesy, we do not smoke inside.
 
I have another friend who refuses anyone the option of smoking outside. It's her house, she has the right to request such a thing. If we want to see her, we abide by her rules ( dominants and submissives alike ).
 
It has nothing to do with whether or not one is a dominant or a submissive, and everything to do with just plain ole common courtesy.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/5/2007 7:20:08 AM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirMGD

pasted below is an email i wrote to a sub friend, who takes quite a hard stance against smoking. I am trying to quit, but haven't yet, and after some heated back and forth, during which she made it clear that "NO ONE smoked in her house", I had these thoughts, and now ask the same of you all, wondering I suppose, where the line is drawn, in a truly D/s household?;

quote:

actually R----, what I'm getting at, and something i invariably inspire;
acceptance, tolerance, and unconditional surrender.

one would think, that a submissive, more especially a SLAVE, like you, and so many others, would cultivate such traits, knowing she must, sooner or later.
What would you do if your master, who you'd been collared to for years, and whom you adored and loved, decided to start smoking? Would you dump him? ask to be released? Try to stop him? How would you exert your will? What if it were his house, or even better, you were married, so it belonged to you both legally?

I use smoking as an example, because you have such a hard stance on it. Nobody smokes in our house huh?..."even you my Master"...lol.

Such rigidity has no place in a truly submissive mind or heart. You might say that a sub has to be that way beforehand, to avoid situations, once surrendered, which she couldn't tolerate. Perhaps, but since most of the available subs I meet seem to have a multitude of similar rigidities, I often wonder if that isn't precisely why they remain available.

Sorry R----, subbies mustn't be ball-busters. Or ever plan to be.
If I ever did smoke in your house, it would be only because I knew you wanted me to, because you'd accepted me, unconditionally. because i'd made you so happy, you wanted to do something, anything, to make me feel comfortable, and I'd know you didn't mind, because you said you didn't.

I know you are incredulous at such a postulation, but it has happened to me before. I'm serious. I think what you fail to see is that a man, me, or any man, could ever make you that happy. So happy you didn't care what his kisses smelled like, or his semen tasted like. They'd be trivialities, and hugely overshadowed by any possibility of the alternative~ not having him.

just some things to ponder dear.
Your friend


thoughts?



i think this is a more complicated issue than some of the members seem to.  Yes i agree that negotiations should be undertaken and smoking outside has its rewards in terms of cleanliness.  And that even a Master should respect a sub or slave's health and property.
i guess though what i think is askew is she's taken such a hard line and spoken so roughly to Him; so unless He didn't get the message the last time, it seems a bit rude.  (Course to some degree the same can be said of Him.)
 
It seems to me that E/each owes a duty of common courtesy unless the O/other is rude; and that this is what is so often missing in a smoking debate.  i currently smoke, will quit soon, and know i'll have a lot of cleaning to do when i quit, including washing walls.  My mini blinds may be hopelessly stained.
 
i want support and such from my F/friends for trying to quit; but i also want to be treated reasonably well all the time.  Yelling at me doesn't help.
 
i just think W/we need to be a bit kinder to Each other.

< Message edited by pinksugarsub -- 6/5/2007 7:23:27 AM >

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RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/5/2007 7:40:14 AM   
drawntothedark


Posts: 572
Joined: 10/19/2006
From: Arkansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Sorry, your domliness does not mean that her health should be compromised.


:)

So basically the OP would subject his slaves to second hand smoke even if they hated it? WOW!

First off it's so rude to light up in a non smokers house. Secondly. I would hope you would take your slaves feelings into account and be a GENTLEMEN and step outside to smoke. I'm sorry but the OP sounds a bit like a spoiled child "I'm the Dom sooooo Nah I'm gonna smoke where ever I want *stomps foot while sticking tounge out*.

I am trying to stop smoking. Someone lighting up around me right now would be terriable for my recovery (I would probably tackle them for their cig) But I don't have to worry about that. Justin has opted to smoke outside so I can quit easier. Not that big of a deal. It's not like he has to walk down the road or stand in 30 below temperatures. He simply opens the door steps out onto the front porch and smokes. Now he is my Dom and not once did he give the issue a thought. He cares about me and wants me to give up this habit because I care about it.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/5/2007 7:45:01 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		I don't smoke ,haven't for 20 years however I am married to a heave smoker.DIANE smokes in her office or in the dinning room,She respect my disdain for the smell of smoke.Those that serve follows the same guidelines.I am not as pure as driven snow I dip when I am out side yes I know thats just as bad but there is some thing about the smell of smoke not only in the room but on a persons body...bounty ..edited to add,have you ever noticed all the people standing out side in a snow Storm or rain lighting up

< Message edited by BOUNTYHUNTER -- 6/5/2007 7:47:52 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Submission, slavery, obedience vs. Smoking - 6/5/2007 8:01:42 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

i think this is a more complicated issue than some of the members seem to.  Yes i agree that negotiations should be undertaken and smoking outside has its rewards in terms of cleanliness.  And that even a Master should respect a sub or slave's health and property.
i guess though what i think is askew is she's taken such a hard line and spoken so roughly to Him; so unless He didn't get the message the last time, it seems a bit rude.  (Course to some degree the same can be said of Him.)
 
It seems to me that E/each owes a duty of common courtesy unless the O/other is rude; and that this is what is so often missing in a smoking debate.  i currently smoke, will quit soon, and know i'll have a lot of cleaning to do when i quit, including washing walls.  My mini blinds may be hopelessly stained.
 
i want support and such from my F/friends for trying to quit; but i also want to be treated reasonably well all the time.  Yelling at me doesn't help.
 
i just think W/we need to be a bit kinder to Each other
 
I think we all need to be kind to ourselves. I quit smoking, and at times I wanted to use other people as my excuse to fail because it was very hard. I locked myself away for several days and only interacted with people when I had to. It is all well and good to get support from others, but they are not responsible for your success, you are.

I read this post in a different way, what he is saying is that weal twue submissive sorts do not have ridgidity in their minds toward anything. This line right here

quote:

Such rigidity has no place in a truly submissive mind or heart. You might say that a sub has to be that way beforehand, to avoid situations, once surrendered, which she couldn't tolerate. Perhaps, but since most of the available subs I meet seem to have a multitude of similar rigidities, I often wonder if that isn't precisely why they remain available.



I have many rigidities. Now I can live with him thinking that I am not weal or twue, because his opinion does not matter to me. His theory is only valid for him. Most of the more rigid nonsmoking subs on this thread are taken, so I suppose that someone must want us rigid or not. I would not have had the many successes I have had without boundaries, limits, being able to communicate my desires, and the wherewithal to stick to things.

On one hand he is saying that we are rigid, and therefore alone, because we are all just not submissive enough.. but on the other hand when I point out that someone that cannot control their behavior would not be my dominant he did not like that too well.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to pinksugarsub)
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