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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/12/2007 10:23:47 PM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

The R&J law set the two year age gap for consensual sex between teenagers. The problem as I understand it was the R&J law was poorly written in such a way that intercourse was covered but other sex acts were not. Had the young man had actual vaginal intercourse with the girl it would have been a misdemenor. However the changed "new law" includes other sexual acts such as oral sex.

Why a misdemeanor then? Why an illegal act at all, if the R&J covers a 2 year age gap?

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/12/2007 10:27:16 PM

beautyImurDaddy

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i admit i havent read this whole story but want to interject a few thoughts. Why is it that we subject our children to learning what is "going" to happen to their bodies in oh say about 6th grade... but tell dont bother to tell them its illegal to do so until they are 18? We all remember the films in health class that go thru the whole this is what your body is going to go thru films. By this token, should ever teenage mother be arrested for having sex before they were 18? is every teenage boy that gets those girls pregnant put in jail? Why would the sentence have been different had they actually HAD intercourse vs fellatio? I am not saying by any means that what happened here was right or wrong... i am the mother of a teenager daughter who was raped at knifepoint 2 days after her 18th birthday.... did those 2 days change any of the ramifications or emotional trauma that happened? Hell no!!

I do seriously understand that we are just trying to put some "accountability" on the parties. But the laws are somewhat antiquatedand for that matter in all reality it is almost impossible to have a "blanket" law that will cover every possible scenario. And yes, it is time consuming and not fair that some crimes are prosecuted and some not based on certain scenarios. But until someone can tell me how to resolve this with a practical resolution, i don't see any other remedy.

Why is it that you need a license to drive a car... to breed a dog... you need to register to vote... but nothing to bring another child into this world... not that i am trying to stir up THAT can of worms... its just to show the dichotomy of the judicial system.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/12/2007 10:29:54 PM

Lordandmaster

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He's already served more than two years. The maximum sentence for vaginal intercourse would have been one year.

Look, there are two issues. One is whether consensual sex between 17-year-olds and 15-year-olds should be criminal under any circumstances. That's the one you're focusing on, but it's irrelevant to his case. The issue is that he's been convicted and sentenced under an unfair law that the legislature itself emended.

Here, just read this:

http://www.wilsonappeal.com/certiorari.html

It's the text of Wilson's latest appeal, which persuaded the Superior Court on Monday.

I know you get bent out of shape when I post links to external sites, but legal cases can get complicated, and sometimes you just have to read a few things before you can state an opinion. Otherwise the opinion is uninformed.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/12/2007 10:29:59 PM

marieToo

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Apparently in this particular case someone cared enough to prosecute. And it appears that there were other complications beyond the age and sexual act performed issue; There was a question that the girl was drunk and I believe it was also videotaped.

I couldnt find all the info.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/12/2007 10:32:32 PM

Lordandmaster

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It was videotaped by a third party, not by Wilson, and the defense has contended from the start that the tape shouldn't have been admissible in the first place.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/12/2007 10:38:19 PM

Pandamonum

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If I am not mistaken it is also in the Atlantic Journal article that Wilson decided, with one or two others, to fight the charges. The others plead their way out. The third party was another girl, I want to say Tracy, and she also preformed oral sex on the other males at the party.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/12/2007 10:41:43 PM

Archer

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The fact that one was a misdemeanor and the other a felony is part and parcel of why the law was changed.
R&J didn't make the act of sexual intercourse between teens within the two year gap legal entirely it made it a misdemeanor.
The merits of the law as it now stands can be argued.
The thing that is at issue today though is should the conviction of the man under the letter of the old flawed law be held without modification?
I would contend that it should not hold. Certainly the potential consequences of the acts are in most people's minds in reverse of the consequences of the convictions.
The law has been determined to be flawed enough that it was updated based on the consequences of the case.
The problem with the legislature from the state constitutional standards is that they could not within the confines of the constitution retroactively apply the law.
(stated as I best understand why they didn't make it retroactive according to news reports when the new law was passed)

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/12/2007 10:47:19 PM

Vendaval

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Given that the maximum sentence for intercourse would have been
1 year and he has served 2 already, then he should be released.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/12/2007 10:52:18 PM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

He's already served more than two years. The maximum sentence for vaginal intercourse would have been one year.

Look, there are two issues. One is whether consensual sex between 17-year-olds and 15-year-olds should be criminal under any circumstances. That's the one you're focusing on, but it's irrelevant to his case. The issue is that he's been convicted and sentenced under an unfair law that the legislature itself emended.

Here, just read this:

http://www.wilsonappeal.com/certiorari.html

It's the text of Wilson's latest appeal, which persuaded the Superior Court on Monday.

I know you get bent out of shape when I post links to external sites, but legal cases can get complicated, and sometimes you just have to read a few things before you can state an opinion. Otherwise the opinion is uninformed.

It reads to me like there was a determination by the jury that there was no force or rape involved. Maybe I'm missing something but it would seem from what I read that the issue IS the age. Yes, I see the oral sex vs vaginal intercourse fuck up in a twisted and flawed law; I got that down, I think. If it had been vaginal sex he would have done less time etc. But that aside for a minute, if they had both been 17 would he have done any time at all?

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/13/2007 1:06:14 AM

meatcleaver

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It seems everyone is in agreement here but for one desenting voice from someone who must have cockeyed puritan genes.

Isn't a 17 year old a minor in Georgia and if so, if a crime has been commited, hasn't it been commited by both parties? Why is it always the male that is seen as the predatory party when we all know there are female predators too.

Actually, the whole case would be laughable if it wasn't for someone being in prison. This case has to be full of psychotic religious zeal and racism, it has to be to make sense.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/13/2007 2:27:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

wouldn't have been a crime in Canada, shouldn't have been a crime anywhere

I agree.

Many years ago, I saw a similar case being discussed on Geraldo Rivera's talk show, the case happened in Wisconsin. I was so pissed that I sent a letter to then Wisconsin Governor Tommy Thompson. I still have the letter he sent me, he disagreed with what happened to the boy as well, and they were working to overturn the law in question. Not sure what happened, eventually.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/13/2007 2:30:34 AM

domiguy

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In Georgia I thought it was only proper to "stone" the girl for her whorish ways.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/13/2007 2:33:25 AM

LadyEllen

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We perhaps dont know all the circumstances, but certainly from what information is available it would seem in the interests of justice for the young man concerned to now be released, and for his categorisation as a sex offender to be examined with a view to being overturned.

I also have to side with MC on this one (twice in the same year!), though sharing a cultural background that is maybe not surprising. To have a justice system which gets quite so animated about such a situation seems odd to me I have to say, because we gave up with these sorts of cases years ago for the same reasons as many here have mentioned - in short its unreasonable and unfair and achieves nothing, when the act is consensual between teenagers, even if underage.

I understand the arguments that under 16 (or whatever arbitrary age is used in a locale) a person is not emotionally mature enough for a sexual relationship, but this is purely arbitrary for one, and for two ignores totally that many so called adults will this weekend have sex with a total stranger, just as sex and with no emotional involvement. Why is it OK for adults to have sex with no emotional aspect but we then deny teenagers sex because we deem them not emotionally mature? Should such adults then also be denied sex for the same reason?

Now, we have stopped much of this nonsense in the UK, but it must also be said that we have the highest teenage and underage pregnancy rate in Europe and maybe in the developed world. We also have a big STD problem in teenagers. This would indicate that our lax approach has gone too far in the opposite direction, and that there is a need for balance - but of course laws are written such that an act is either legal or illegal, making it difficult to judge on anything more than a subjective view, which is hardly satisfactory. Sex under 16 years of age remains an offence here, but almost no one is prosecuted and that maybe contributes to our situation. Its a cultural thing.

That its a cultural thing though does provide hope, because we can with some effort and some idea of where we want to be, readjust - without going back to the old days when teenage moms were sent away and their babies taken from them, and the society lived in abject fear of sexuality. But in my view, to get to that middle ground, we can not have overdue influence from any source which makes moral judgements - be that the Church which influenced in former times or the PC "anything goes" influences of more recent times.

E

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/13/2007 2:34:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

In Georgia I thought it was only proper to "stone" the girl for her whorish ways.

No, you're thinking of Alabama, DG.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/13/2007 2:55:00 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Now, we have stopped much of this nonsense in the UK, but it must also be said that we have the highest teenage and underage pregnancy rate in Europe and maybe in the developed world. We also have a big STD problem in teenagers. This would indicate that our lax approach has gone too far in the opposite direction, and that there is a need for balance - but of course laws are written such that an act is either legal or illegal, making it difficult to judge on anything more than a subjective view, which is hardly satisfactory. Sex under 16 years of age remains an offence here, but almost no one is prosecuted and that maybe contributes to our situation. Its a cultural thing.

I think the problem LE is that Britain treats its young adults as children. I've been brought up in the British education and my daughter in the Dutch system and the difference is the Dutch are honest with their children. They teach them about both the physical and emotional side of sex (and drugs) and say yes, sex and drugs are exciting and fun, that is why people indulge but here is the downside etc etc. Your choice, your decieion and your problem if it all goes wrong! The result is that many young people see their peers that over indulge in sex and drugs, become pregnant or drop out of education, as losers and not something to aspire to emulate because they are aware they will pay with their future for their actions. They make the choices themselves on the information they have been given, not on the hectoring of adults.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/13/2007 2:57:05 AM >

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/13/2007 3:11:39 AM

LadyEllen

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Good point MC - sex education here is mainly biological and its crap, though I think they do cover more about relationships and so on than they ever did in my day these days. Again though, it falls down because I know from my sisters that there was no mention of anything but heterosexual reproductive relationships and the functional aspect of those. No mention of homosexuality, bisexuality, transgender, oral sex, anal sex, bdsm, fetishes or anything that might not lead to pregnancy. I see (I know) the heavy hand of "good CofE values" permeating the whole thing - even though very few adhere to that system. Meanwhile, when these kids go out and start growing up, we have the "anything goes" social benefits system as a "reward" - how else can those with no prospects get a house, maybe a car, and enough money to live on?

Same thing with the drugs as far as I know. I get criticised adversely for telling my kids about drugs, what they are, what they do and so on - its necessary given where I live, amongst alcoholics and heroin addicts and with cannabis smoke distinctly detectable even on the street. Sure I tell them - of course they do exactly what they say on the tin - you feel great, but the next day you feel crap and need some more, and most importantly, take a look at these people and how they live as a result.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/13/2007 3:22:21 AM

seeksfemslave

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I think:
Was it a crime? Yes for both parties.
Is the sentence sensible? NO, far too severe.

Is the sexually permissive attitude abroad today a good thing. NO.
Especially for "sensitive" adolescents. I believe they do exist lol

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/13/2007 6:56:01 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I think:
Was it a crime? Yes for both parties.
Is the sentence sensible? NO, far too severe.

Is the sexually permissive attitude abroad today a good thing. NO.
Especially for "sensitive" adolescents. I believe they do exist lol

There are people all over the world that marry and mate as soon as they pass through puberty. No one thinks this is bad for them, no one coddles them and keeps them suspended in an infantile state for a decade before they are allowed to use the plumbing nature endowed them with.

It is just silly to me to expect that people who are physically mature will not use their sex drives and do what nature compels them to. As the mother of a UM I have warned him of the pitfalls of making rash choices, including the legal ramifications of those choices. He is going to make the choices he is going to make whether I am "permissive" or not.

I read comments like yours and I wonder if you were ever a teen. I was a virgin until I was 18, the age of legal consent, and I was no more ready for it at 18 than I was at 16. All people mature at different rates.

I would state that the problem is with the Victorian ideals that are prevalent here, not with teens doing what teens have always done and will continue to do as long as our species continues to exist

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/13/2007 7:49:55 AM

LightHeartedMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

By all accounts, the young woman came on to the young man. Why is it only his fault?

He was older. He should have known better., As long as males are controlled by their hormones, they will always be vulnerable in this regard. I'm sure he could have pushed her away. Somebody, SOMETIME, has to take responsibility.

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RE: Jailing a 17 year old for hormones? - 6/13/2007 7:59:58 AM

LightHeartedMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

In Georgia I thought it was only proper to "stone" the girl for her whorish ways.

~ yet another misogynistic moment brought to you courtesy of domiguy.

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