RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (Full Version)

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GuidingLite -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 8:19:29 AM)

u must think i care. <yawn>

i really do care about u and ur opinion. ur amazing.



GuidingLite -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 8:20:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joyinslavery

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuidingLite

<<<<<<<oooffff>>>>>>>>> puleeze, you can never RESIST me coz you alwayz read and get moved by my posts and u know fully well I make you think and thats why you are so easily bothered by what I right. you are the biggest fronter on here and are a dom in sheeps clothing is what you are and i dont give a crap that you or anyone else thinks I am attacking you and the other fake subs on here. its the same 3 whinners. booo hooooo you gots a problem with strong ass womens. punkyboy. you cant handle inequality so then get the hell out of the submissive cateogry part and just ask them to give you a place called bottom-sub coz thats what you are big cry baby alwayz crying and saying boo hooo i wanna be equal to my dom. <<<<sigh>>>>>>> you dont nkow who u r all u know is u cant resist me and the guiding advise i offer and thats good u took my advise and u finally posted in another section to in bdsm section. its about time daddy. how come u alwayz spend time whinning nd complaining to these mystresses who most are to dam cool and u and the rest of the mens know it. you are the biggest front here. making up definitions to fi t you. you will never find a mystress who will think of u as an equal so stop crying shyt or then just look for a girl to dom you in the only place u can handle it. the bed. you want equality? what cha doing in here then?



http://english-tutoring.com/



check it daddy, the only queen i ever want to be seeing is Latifa so go ahead with ur queens english.



GuidingLite -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 8:26:01 AM)

oh brother dont get it twisted. mystresses know their are some nice subbies here up in the boards but ya'll dont post enough to get uncovered from the passive aggressive secretly fear womens authority puppet weak boys. i dont care if you like my good mannered ways or not but u are one of the few who dont seem like u hate and are all scary of strong womens and show mature respectful acts.



hereyesruponyou -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 10:17:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

What I find fascinating is what NO ONE has actually really discussed in this thread about the rude submissives. And this post is probably a good one to use as the sounding board to bring it up (not that there's anything wrong with the post, but it does reflect the point).

With all of the negative and angry posts from submissive men, has anyone notice that the dominant women seem to focus on THEM alone. This whole thread has focused on the claim, then some examples as the perpetrators came in and did that, and then complete focus on the people who do what the dominant women here can't stand. What is missing is that those who remain polite, friendly and have never changed demeanor, actually get ignored. Use me as an example. I've posted in this thread, making what I thought were insightful comments, and that got ignored for the most part to focus on arguments with those who do the very deed everyone is complaining about. In other words, the dominant women here REWARDED those who piss them off and cast off the comments of those who have been consistent in trying to maintain the positive method of communicating.

So, to add to my previous comments, maybe there's another variable at work here as well. Maybe it's not just about attitude, but a realization that a snarky attitude is going to get actual responses while the desired attitude can be equated to being a "nice guy" who listens to a woman complain about all of the lousy guys but then continues to date them while stating she wishes she can find a nice guy "like him". Yeah, I know there's a lot of baggage behind that analogy, but I used it anyway.




The boards are fueled by the "jump on the bandwagon" mentality. Either chime in bashing or defending whoever is being attacked. No point in just responding to the actual issues or underlying motivations.  And when that doesn't get you enough attention start the personal attacks. I  think that is why we get so excited when there is a topic that actually garners discussion instead of all this drama



Politesub53 -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 10:38:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

* The self preservation in reaction to "money dommes" and femdom scammers.  The new age sub now has pushed back hard in the other direction, scoffing at the idea that he may be expected to show any kind of generosity, especially if it costs money.  Femdoms of today, strike the word "Generous" from your vocabulary, no matter HOW you use it!

Akasha



Hi Maam, i agree with You that many submissive males wince at the words, generous gift and spoil, due to the MoneyDommes and scammer who appear on sites such as this. However that doesnt mean some are not happy to go the MoneyDomme route, for whatever reason there are some who will willingly do so. This doesnt mean though that others, while maybe not liking the word generous in an email, are unwilling to spent money and indeed spoil a Mistress. i had an email asking " Will You spoil me ? " but while i would have been happy to do so, that was all the email said. Not one word about the Mistress, nor were there any in the profile, so i didnt reply.
Asking for money to join a group, or web site ect is reasonable. As is paying to see a ProDomme ( and i am not equating the two ) After all one wouldnt expect to eat in a restaurant for free. So my point is, sometimes its just how things are worded that a submissive finds off putting.

As for rudeness in general, when i joined the site i decided to be me, polite, inquisitive, humourus and with strong opinions. i think that is acceptable, as long as i dont become self opinionated. i also treat everyone with respect, male or female Dominant or submissive, but i treat a Domme with greater respect for two reasons. Firstly, how could i identify as submissive and not do so, and secondly first impressions, indeed every impression counts.

Not just on hear but on every forum i use, people can get rude and obnoxious, hiding a snide remark with the word ( Joke ) or whatever. To me thats more likely to be the case with someone that is always doing such. i try and make sure i am polite and respectful, i dont always get it right and also have days when i bite back. Especially if someone has been rude to me for no reason. If i feel someone has misunderstood me, or i them, then i try and sort it out in private rather than perpetuate it on the boards.

Sometimes i try and inject humour and hope it is taken as such. i also try and stand by my opinions and am happy to be told when i am wrong. The reason for this is that even if i think i am right, it makes me stop and think, which cant be bad. i agree many submissive males may well be bottoms, although i think this is part of the learning curve. While i call myself a submissive, and look to live that way 24/7. Until i have tried it i wont know if i am capable of it, that doesnt make me any less genuine in how i see myself, maybe uneducated or unsure

I notice the rudeness between people isnt restricted to any board, nor sex, or any inclination. Some of this must stem from prior events in a persons life, thats only natural i think. Incidentally much of what You say about submissive males can also be seen in the submissive females, so it isnt a gender thing, in my opinion.

Maybe Your final words summed it up perfectly Maam.
" Its all about balance "

[;)]



AAkasha -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 10:47:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I debated for a while on whether I would start a new thread with My comments or just reply here.  It's early and the caffeine hasn't quite hit yet, so that may have influenced My decision.
 
Had I started a new thread, I was very specifically going to title it, "Rewarding negative behavior".  It seems to Me that this is exactly what We do in these types of situations.  It is very much along the same lines. 
 
I think most of Us would agree that one of the most unintelligent things We could do would be to allow a masochist to act up, and then 'punish' him by corporal means.  All this is doing is reinforcing the negative behavior, because he got exactly what he wanted by doing so.  The better idea in response to this action is to chose a much different reaction.  For example, stop feeding into the negative behavior. 
 
Yet here on the forums, We encourage a similar scenerio on rather a constant basis.  We have a few that seem to 'get off' by stirring the pot, treating others in a less than polite fashion, not being respectful, etc.  What do We do?  We end up doing the same thing as physically punishing the above hypothetical masochist.  We feed into the behavior by responding in kind, and the whole scenerio begins a vicious cycle.  Very much like the 'castration' guy from the other thread.  He has very much accomplished any other goal, rather than to actually be castrated.  He seeks attention, humiliation, etc., and We give it to him, just because of his behavior when he contacts Us, and even more often, when he doesn't.  Even as I sit here, I'm still giving him exactly what he wants, because I'm still talking about him. 
 
I will agree with a particular point that has been brought up repeatedly.  Through cyber world, My references to being a Dominant mean very little.  Very few on CM know Me any more than they do the next chick that walks down the street.  (A good point in that.  For all anyone knows, I might not even be female, if you get right down to it.)  Why should I deserve respect any more or less than anyone else someone didn't know?
 
Here's a possible answer..... and this is where it ties into the OP.  How about the way I conduct Myself?  It really has very little to do with the way anyone else acts.  If I can talk to others with respect, I might just get some back.  If the way I act today, without a submissive of My own, when I talk with others, or speak of My prior submissives, maybe that might incline someone to think I am worthy of their submissivion.  It goes the other way around as well.  Depending on how someone acts prior to, or being in their current dynamic, sheds a lot of light on how they will act should they be paired with Me.  Personally, I would want My submissive to be a good reflection on Me with others in the community.  I would want him to treat others, who deserve it, with respect and courtesy.  Knowing he can do this before he comes to Me, is a good indicator that he will do it once with Me.
 
Just a quick version of My opinion.  I'm sure I missed a many things.


LadyPact,
You make good points.  First, you are totally right (and other posters brought this up also) about rewarding attention-seeking subs, etc. but not responding to behavior that appears designed just to get attention.  I think that's a good solution and I do that fairly often, ignoring a lot of posts.  Unfortunately, someone else usually takes the bait in my place.   It used to be, though, that the "flame bait" was so clearly that, there would be no worry that EVERYONE would see it as such (ie a sub starting name calling or acting like a total jerk), but this "submissive lib" type of behavior, as I said, is just subtle enough to be rude but if they were called on it they could pull out their "I am not your submissive so you can't tell me what to do!" card, which is ridiculous.  As soon as they "learned" that it was ok to use that as a way to not allow themselves to be treated poorly, that became the poster child line for any submissive that felt a dominant spoke to them in a tone they didn't like.  But you know there are submissives that should heed this advice also, because some of them you will see in the thick of it, seizing any opportunity to get into a long, drawn out sparring match to prove they can "stand up" to any femdom and wave their flag for independence, when in reality, if they really thought the lady was full of shit, they'd ignore them; this, though, gives them an opportunity to not look like a pushover in front of the masses.

I agree about looking at ourselves. I know I get way too impatient and irritated and when I think I will come off inappropriately I just remove myself entirely from the online discussion because in the scheme of things it's not that important to me.  What I miss, I guess, is the much more even keeled discussions that used to happen in usenet in the early days of the Internet (littlesarbonn will know what I am talking about) when stuff like this didn't happen but once in a blue moon.

I stand by everything I said in the OP but wanted to clarify that I didn't mean to insinuate that playful jabbing, even when perhaps slightly obnoxious, a la benji, is what I was talking about.  Subs can be rambunctious without being purposely rude just to get attention.

Akasha



YesMistressIrish -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 10:58:10 AM)

This post from AAkasha makes some very good points in my book.

I would like to see more specific responses to her original post instead of flaming. Good Manners are paramount to me in any discourse with a man or a woman, and I do my best to live that way and be a good example. I believe in courtship as a way of life. That goes 2 ways. It is just my personal preference. I also love to cut-up and laugh at anything and everything.

I spent 5 hrs this past week dealing with a sub who had a lot of the behaviors that AAkasha mentioned in her original post. I ended up having to put aside for the week several really nice men who have been attempting to connect with me. It was a frustrating week, and I felt I got sukked into this subs drama/denial/whining/slightly aggressive attitude. We had our first meet yesterday and he was very respectful while we were together.
In my own personal experience lately (and I have had a steep learning curve for myself while having my coming out party on cm), it takes so much energy to deal with needy subs/slaves who long to serve and do the flip-flop *switch. Testosterone overload vs: total worship. Now, that would be a great thread!
Of course, deep down we are all equal; spiritually speaking.
There is a beautiful spiritual transformation that happens when a testosterone loaded male gets to that 'doe-eyed place.'
However, I know what it feels like to be 'worked' and it feels USED, plain and simple. I am not here to be used by needy people, but to revel in the fun transformation, get served, and most of all, have fun. My primary goal is to make my life easier, and have anyone in my personal circle feel that their lives are better because of our connection.
When I was participating in parenting seminars over the years one particular stat was burned into my memory. It takes 7 positives to neutralize 1 negative. So, for all you good subs/slaves with big hearts, who are respectful and kind: please persist!
I always look for the sub posters/emailers who are respectful when they share. The problem is: The negativity pops out like a nasty worm, and for anyone who has a natural ability to heal, or habits of 'fixing', well, they can get their energy diverted easily.
Another thing: Here we have the printed word, no inflection, body language, or connection to make it really clear what the poster/emailer's intenions are. Anyway, I digress.
I relish the Old-fashioned ways of courtship. I thrive on it, and give back in kind.
There are quite a few bottoms in denial who beg to worship. But, they don't mean worship, they mean get THEIR kink on. Get THEIR wants met, and shove aside real requests wondering what service they are able to provide. It takes a smart man/woman to properly court a Domina (I love that word). There is a deep sensuality to it. Worship includes respect. Starts with it. Continues with it. A lack of respect has showed up in my inbox here since I posted my pic and I am going to be taking it off my profile. Men (and many women: I am one) are very visual. Those gonads start filling, the testosterone flows and  7 new pages of emails, alot of them grossly disrespectful, have flooded my inbox in the last 2 days since I put my pic up. Blocking has become an all too busy past-time for me lately.
There is a lot more I would like to say here. But this good enough for now.
I also want to say: I love the Celestial Hierarchy that happens in D/s realtionships. Spiritual growth is a beautiful thing. Please pardon all my typos as I am still hung over from the few hits of pot I indulged in while grooving at the live concert  "Dark Side of the Moon' last night. Awesome concert. Heaven through Nostalgia.
 
Irish Out
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
"Boyfriends need to understand that if women are worshipped,
the world will be a better place.”
Nicole Kidman

 



AAkasha -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 11:11:52 AM)


I guess I don't spend enough time writing "in my opinion" and "in my experiences" but that's obviously what I mean.  The three things I mentioned are new phenomenons that I did not see until recently.  I think it's interesting enough to point out because it's slowly becoming more and more apart of the posting dynamic.  As someone who has read and posted on bdsm newsgroups since 1995, this is something I am seeing as relatively recent (and others seem to also).

And to clarify, I don't think submissive men should defer to dominant women, or not disagree with them openly; that's exactly what we want to see (the phenonenon in the early days of bdsm message boards was submissives would NOT disagree and posture submissive in postings, imagine how annoying that was?).     I'm talking about submissives that operate just on the edge of arrogant and obnoxious and wait to be called on it so they can say "Look, I am not your submissive so you can't tell me to behave in any manner, I will act how I want."  These submissives also pile onto femdom yahoos who may come around and post garbage that no one takes seriously because this gives them an opportunity to demonstrate how "non submissive they can be to a femdom who has not earned their respect" -- notice these subs don't pile onto the submissive yahoos/wankers threads? It doesn't give the same satisfaction, I would imagine.

Looking for any reason to discredit or insult a woman who chooses to label herself "femdom" (whether you want to believe or accept that label is up to the individual person and really is not relevant at all until you're intimate with them anyway) shows something about that person.  Just as a dominant woman shouldn't use her "label" to throw her attitude around, a submissive shouldn't go out of his way to take jabs at dominant women just for attention.  The other poster brought up a point I had not considered; it's probably all just for attention.  They know they will get the reaction, then they can pull the "I am not your submissive so I have a right to say you are full of shit" (anyone has a right to say someone is full of this, the submissive part has nothing to do with it and the fact that you bring it up says something about you; you bring out the "I am not your submissive card" when the person says to "shut up and stop posting" which is an order.)

I'm actually surprised at the direction this thread has taken -- I thought people would be all over the money thing and they aren't, which is good, because that never ends well!

Akasha



Calandra -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 11:27:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn
So, to add to my previous comments, maybe there's another variable at work here as well. Maybe it's not just about attitude, but a realization that a snarky attitude is going to get actual responses while the desired attitude can be equated to being a "nice guy" who listens to a woman complain about all of the lousy guys but then continues to date them while stating she wishes she can find a nice guy "like him". Yeah, I know there's a lot of baggage behind that analogy, but I used it anyway.


I can totally see your point, however "I" have noticed the handful of submissive men who post respectul, insightful, and yet strong opinions. I appreciate those of you who come and discuss and debate without allowing yourselves to be inflamed and disrespectful. Sometimes I even disagree with you, but the WAY you express yourselves demands My respect because your thoughts are well thought out and you've taken the time to choose your words carefully.
 
I also take note of the temperamental men on these forums. I've personally witnessed every one of the scenarios Aakasha described. I've even taken the brunt of attacks by some who post here. ~shrugs~ When I realize that I am in a temperamental person's (regardless of power identity or gender, people) crosshairs, I will simply go back and try to explain MY original motives and goals in posting in order to clear up any misunderstanding. If the person(s) continues to attribute negativity to Me, I exit the conversation. I feel that My attention is better spent with people who conduct themselves with common courtesy AT ALL TIMES. (Yup, I notice when someone is all sweetness with Me, but treats others like garbage - I won't surround Myself with them).
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is that YOU and other respectful but passionate posters DO get the lion's share of My attention - but I am not seeking anyone new for My household, so polite chat on subjects we all enjoy is as far as things go. ~smiles~ 



joyinslavery -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 11:32:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha


The three things I mentioned are new phenomenons that I did not see until recently.  I think it's interesting enough to point out because it's slowly becoming more and more apart of the posting dynamic.  As someone who has read and posted on bdsm newsgroups since 1995, this is something I am seeing as relatively recent (and others seem to also).



Imagine how annoying it'll be once we get unionized. 


Edited to add:  Proud to be part of the vanguard though.  [sm=smile.gif] 




joyinslavery -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 12:41:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuidingLite

<<<<<<<oooffff>>>>>>>>> puleeze, you can never RESIST me coz you alwayz read and get moved by my posts and u know fully well I make you think and thats why you are so easily bothered by what I right. you are the biggest fronter on here and are a dom in sheeps clothing is what you are and i dont give a crap that you or anyone else thinks I am attacking you and the other fake subs on here. its the same 3 whinners. booo hooooo you gots a problem with strong ass womens. punkyboy. you cant handle inequality so then get the hell out of the submissive cateogry part and just ask them to give you a place called bottom-sub coz thats what you are big cry baby alwayz crying and saying boo hooo i wanna be equal to my dom. <<<<sigh>>>>>>> you dont nkow who u r all u know is u cant resist me and the guiding advise i offer and thats good u took my advise and u finally posted in another section to in bdsm section. its about time daddy. how come u alwayz spend time whinning nd complaining to these mystresses who most are to dam cool and u and the rest of the mens know it. you are the biggest front here. making up definitions to fi t you. you will never find a mystress who will think of u as an equal so stop crying shyt or then just look for a girl to dom you in the only place u can handle it. the bed. you want equality? what cha doing in here then?


GuidingLite, you're fighting an uphill battle with a malesub that, I think I can safely assume, is one of (if not THE) most respected malesub's on the boards.  I'm a bit surprised that more Femdoms haven't come to his aid (not that he needs it) but your analysis of him is, as I know most here know, horribly skewed.

I think this falls squarely in the camp of, 'Pick and choose your battles wisely'.  I don't harbor ill-will toward you but I have to tell you my money is on him. 

BTW, I do think you keep it spicey (and fun) around here! 


Edited because I'm a dumbass.     



littlesarbonn -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 12:44:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

(snipped a bunch of information that was of great quality as usual)


And to clarify, I don't think submissive men should defer to dominant women, or not disagree with them openly; that's exactly what we want to see (the phenonenon in the early days of bdsm message boards was submissives would NOT disagree and posture submissive in postings, imagine how annoying that was?). 

Akasha



I remember it well. I also remember Teramis and I took a LOT of flack back then because we were amongst the first and more vocal ones of the submissive crowd back then, and I can't even begin to tell you the amount of emails I received that said in some very hostile ways "a submissive should be observed, not heard". I would go to a play party with my Mistress, and a group of dominants there would discover who I was and immediately take to criticizing me. But what kept me going was that every now and then another submissive at one of these functions would pull me aside and say that she was finding her voice because a few of us were willing to put ourselves out there. I was lucky at the time that I had a Mistress who was proud of me and stood behind me, standing up to dominants that took it upon themselves to engage me in public directly without going through her first.

It's amazing how much the Internet has changed in only a short period of time.



ocilla -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 12:51:09 PM)

In fariness I feel I should be upfront and let yall know that this is my first post here and that I am very wet behind the ears in the realm of Femdom an D/s  but I have some thought on this topic that might be helpful. 

For years I was a chef and I would encounter the slight attitude issue in the kitchen from the occasional subordanant. After much frustration and in a field where I was typically the only woman in the kitchen, I finally realized that, as Akasha pointed out, both they and I knew they were misbehaving even if it could not be put into words easily or written up in a performance evaluation etc..  My relief came after trying many different approaches, when I began confronting it head on. 

Example: When I sensed thier snarky, distructive, subtle behavior or comment I pulled them aside immediatly and said nothing more than this, " both you and I know what you are doing and you need to cut it out immediately.".  The response was usually some combination of suprise, apology and "Oh Shit!" and immediate behavior modification. Often just my confronting them would stop them from ever trying such shenanigans again. 

If they acted completely clueless, I would send them home for the day to think about it (putting the onus on them to define what they were doing that was not acceptable) and to decide whether they wanted to really work with me in my kitchen or not.  Then, the moment they next reported for work we would have a  talk and I would say," if you would like to get prime, juicy assignments and be mentored and favored by me,the chef, a significant undertaking for me and a significant privilege for you, you will have to change your behavior and get on board with total support, otherwise there is no reason for you to be here."  They would sometimes fane innocence and demurely say," but I am not doing anything."  At which point I would say, "both you and I know that you are being disrespectful and subtley undermining my authority. I will not fire you for this behavior but you will be on my radar at all times, and I will not advance you, trust you, take you into my confidence, give you anything exciting or critical or challenging to work on or make things easy for you as long as you carry on in this manner."  You know a basic outright threat of their impending misery. 

I did this numerous times (maybe a dzoen or more and never had anyone quit or leave but did have the boys become whole hearted members of the team and very supportive from there out.   If they started to stray for whatever reason, which was understandable and somewhat human, all it would take from me was direct eye contact and a raised brow to correct them. 

Now, as I mentioned, I am very new to the Domina world but I can imagine this same approach working well.  And as I have aged I find that I can easily head off the offending behavior long before I  have to confront it and I do not waste much of my time and energy trying to correct their behavior but "move them along" instead.

Ocilla



joyinslavery -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 1:00:47 PM)

'Cornertime' is an option too (????). 

Sorry...I'm bored.  [sm=smile.gif]


Edited to add:  Is that one word or two?  Anyone with kiddos?  Help.



undergroundsea -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 1:09:51 PM)

I would like to thank all those who contributed with quality posts that have cooled the energy of this thread.

Cheers,

Sea



SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 2:26:00 PM)


quote:

Sea,
Of course I appreciate that.  I don't expect anyone to submit to Me just because I spell My name with a capital K and identify as Dominant.  That's just silly.  I express My view and people can take it however they wish to.  I just don't appreciate it when people disagree with others in a rude, condescending tone and then expect to have polite, intelligent discourse.  Submissive or not, that just makes Me not want to interact with those people.  It's not just submissive men (although they do post here in the Ask a Mistress forum quite often) but this includes Dominant men, women and submissive women as well.  It seems to Me that more often than not on an Ask a Mistress forum, there are submissive men who DAILY try to discredit and demean Dominas, often rudely or with a condescending tone.  To Me that is inappropriate.  Yes, many of the Dominas (very few actually) come with complaints or to vent, but where else would you like us to do this?
~Kara
 
There isn't a great deal I can add to this because it reflects my viewpoint pretty much on target . What I will add to it goes back to the original OP as well. If I ramble a bit forgive me. My brain is fried over a paper I've been working on for days.
 
When I find myself interested in someone it usually comes about by their participation here within the forums. I will go back and look at their previous interactions with others through their posts additionally. I feel that they reflect upon the character of the person more than anything that they will tell me personally about themselves.
 
While I don't expect someone to afford me (or anyone) automatic respect and subservience simply because of my screenname; I do expect to see a general regard to courtesy that should be afforded to any other human being upon the planet regardless of "label". I think of those posts as an insight at how they treat others when no one is looking and they aren't trying to impress. If I see a great deal of negativity, disrespect and a waving of the "you're not my Domme, I don't have to respect you" flag it tends to turn me off a great deal. After all, I'm looking and you're looking, so someday I possibly could be your Domme. If you can't be courteous to someone that isn't, how can I ever think you would be courteous if I were.
 
Let's face it, their behavior is going to reflect on me should they become Mine. If that behavior is negative to everyone but me...well that's just not someone I would want to be associated with from the start. It doesn't really matter which label applies. Dom/me, sub, slave, female or male. I choose not to allow negativity, disrespect and rudeness to be a part of my life. It isn't an attribute I find endearing in others.
 
While I also would say I find the movement away from the "worm" mentality a refreshing and positive thing there is a fine line between healthy self respect and arrogance (for want of a better word). The latter is what I would describe as those that seem to feel the need to be condescending or disrespectful of others in order to build themselves up and feel better about themselves. All the while adding the disclaimer of joking to remove the sting of their blatant attack.
 
I enjoy a sub that has a brain of his own and opinions, that is capable of intellectual discourse without it becoming a personal attack. What I don't enjoy is someone that labels themselves submissive and then exemplifies themselves to be a wannabe in sheep's clothing by being rude, discourteous and condescending.
 
quote:

* Submissives that proudly state they will slam the door on any femdom that expects gifts. Look, guys, we get it - you aren't going to be scammed or send cash to strangers (we don't want you to do that either).  But if you think it's cool and sexy to laugh at a lady that expects to be courted or for you to wrench your wallet out of your pocket to send flowers or a gift when you are courting, you are going to remain single a long time.  Just because SOME of your gender have been stupid and horny enough to fall for extremely obvious scams where women ask for cash to prove sincerity does not give you a "pass" in the age-old tradition of vying for a woman's favor by showing generosity of spirit and, yes, in sometimes gifting.    It's crazy that these guys have no problem with the concept of "worship and adoration" when it comes to their fantasies (ie, asslicking for hours) but if it's something that makes a woman feel cherished, like sending flowers or buying an appropriate gift, they are ready to jump on the "submissive lib" bandwagon.  This one, sadly, I think is going to result in many submissives never getting to first base with a woman, because he looks like a cheapskate or a bitter guy who fell for a bad scam once and now is blaming all women.


In regard to the OP about the gifts/courting/wallet aspect I agree. I don't expect someone to pay the rent, or my tuition or my car note. I can do that perfectly well on my own thank you. This isn't pay for play. I don't do casual play regardless.
 
What I do expect is that someone court me appropriately. If they can't be bothered to send flowers or buy an occassional thoughtful gift to show their appreciation towards me then they aren't going to be someone I'll be interested in for very long. If that comes across as being high maintenance, unfair or bitchy I don't really care. The person I'm going to focus on is the one that does the small thoughtful things that show where their mental/emotional focus is...on Me. Note..I did not say expensive gifts. I said thoughtful and appropriate. I'll give an example.
 
I have a thing for cows. They remind me of where I grew up and where I came from. I mentioned my cow obsession in passing to a former sub during the getting to know one another stage. A couple months later he called to ask if he could drop something by for me. It turned out to be a whimsical little cow and it made me laugh. If it cost more than a couple dollars I would be suprised. That isn't the point. The point is that while out and about on a normal day he came across this adorable little cow and thought about me, thought it would make me smile. That is what delighted me, made me feel appreciated and cherished. It was a small simple thing that made me see him in a whole different light. I can sit here today at my desk, look over at it and it still makes me smile and think of him. Nice investment on a couple dollars eh?
 
There were many other little thoughtful gifts through the years. A copy of my favorite book, a flower that was my favorite shade of peach, some bubble bath and some candles when I was particularly stressed. All relatively inexpensive items in dollar amount but priceless in their value in terms of  thoughtful appreciation.
 
So yes, I expect to be courted, to be wooed, in a sense. I'm not talking tickets to Venice for dinner. (Not that I would mind that in the least either)  I'm talking about the small special things that show someone is paying attention, they're listening to me and they want to see me smile. That's what makes the difference and makes someone stand out from the rest of the pack. That's the person I'm going to be far more interested in getting to know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

What I find fascinating is what NO ONE has actually really discussed in this thread about the rude submissives. And this post is probably a good one to use as the sounding board to bring it up (not that there's anything wrong with the post, but it does reflect the point).

With all of the negative and angry posts from submissive men, has anyone notice that the dominant women seem to focus on THEM alone. This whole thread has focused on the claim, then some examples as the perpetrators came in and did that, and then complete focus on the people who do what the dominant women here can't stand. What is missing is that those who remain polite, friendly and have never changed demeanor, actually get ignored. Use me as an example. I've posted in this thread, making what I thought were insightful comments, and that got ignored for the most part to focus on arguments with those who do the very deed everyone is complaining about. In other words, the dominant women here REWARDED those who piss them off and cast off the comments of those who have been consistent in trying to maintain the positive method of communicating.


That is an excellent point sarbonne. The adding fuel to fire aspect is one which actually had kept me from wading into the fray to post my thoughts in regard to the OP. Personally I'm not here to debate. I don't really care whether someone agrees with my opinion or not. I'm not posting it in order to have it argued or viewed as right or wrong. It's simply my opinion or personal experience. I've never felt the need to be right on any given subject. I simply give my opinion and leave it at that. If I disagree with someone I state why I disagree with them from my experience or view point. Those that feel the need to debate my opinion are usually ignored or told that I simply disagree and there's not much point in debating it.
 
The intellectual discourse that turn into debates and then turn into the trainwrecks we see occassionally here aren't really of any import to me. (not that this one is one of those trainwrecks) While fun to read with a bowl of popcorn and a glass of merlot as entertainment, they aren't something I tend to wade into aside from perhaps the rare comment of humor. I see those that act up as somewhat along the lines of a masochist acting up to get punished in order to get their needs met. I don't do topping from the bottom and I won't be party to giving someone the flogging they are so obviously begging for in a public forums. It just doesn't do anything for me in the least.



petdave -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 2:51:19 PM)

*cracks knuckles* Ahh... ten hours of sleep, three Diet Pepsis, a bowl of ice cream... now i'm ready for wordy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn
It's amazing how much the Internet has changed in only a short period of time.



Interesting... were you using the same screen name at that time? i remember Teramis (and certainly Akasha), but your name is unfamiliar (i didn't post, but i lurked a LOT in ASB, ASF, and later Alt.Torture). While the Internet has certainly changed (MySpace, the AOL of the 21st century!), it surprises me just how much of the dialogues just recycles... i mean, weren't "What is the difference between a 'submissive'  and a 'slave'?" and "What's with all the fat chicks?" posted the day Al Gore flipped the switch?

Ahem.

Perhaps i just don't read the same posts, but i can't say i've ever seen a guy pull the "I'm a sub, but not YOUR sub card" in discussions... though i certainly have seen "Don't call me Mistress unless I'm YOUR Mistress" (even in this thread! How convenient)

i mean, for years one of the overriding messages i've seen in on-line BDSM, Femdom/malesub in particular, has been "This is NOT your fantasy world. We are real live people(tm) with normal interests", perhaps second only to "NOBODY LIKES A SIMPERING LOSER"... would it not be little sad if nobody learned from it?

So if it's firmly established that open on-line discussion communities have no set protocol of general subservience according to one's orientation... What do you have that will keep submissive jerks from acting like jerks?  Well, Moderator XI, but she's like a secret weapon.

While not inconceivable, i think it's a bit presumptive to decide that they're being jerks because they think that'll get them some action. What's that quote about assuming malice? Some probably don't realize they're jerks. Some would be jerks regardless of whether it was sexier than snivelling. i also think that most of the time "rewarding bad behavior" is reading too much into it, when really it's just that provocative positions inspire more discussion than thoughtful but ambiguous ones, in ANY forum.

Personally, i'm not even looking for action, i'm just a jerk because dumping on submissive men has always been kind of a harmless hobby in BDSM discussions, and it wearies me. i'm like an avenging angel  *fwaps big bat wings* [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s1.gif[/image]

...dave



undergroundsea -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 2:56:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaramelGoddess
I don't expect anyone to submit to Me just because I spell My name with a capital K and identify as Dominant.  That's just silly.  I express My view and people can take it however they wish to.  I just don't appreciate it when people disagree with others in a rude, condescending tone and then expect to have polite, intelligent discourse.


Thank you for the response.

It is fair of you, however, to expect that you be treated with respect. It is fair of anyone to have this expectation. Correction. It is fair of anyone to have this expectation as long as they give this respect in turn. Thank you, GuidingLite, for helping me complete my thoughts. ;-)

While it is my constant goal to keep a handle on my emotions and ego, I am sure I miss. I respond much like anyone else when I sense an attack, either directly or by virtue of an attack on a group to which I belong. I have at times felt in discussions here as if because I am a submissive, I am not allowed this response--if I am offended, I should just swallow it. To the extent I am reading that expectation correctly, I find it disrespectful, which creates the same type of feelings as anyone else might feel upon sensing disrespect. I consider it an expectation of subservience to talk to another as if they are on a lower plane, or to talk with an intent to offend and for that person to swallow it. This was the context behind my statement about blind subservience.

I had two specific contexts in mind when I wrote my post to you. In each case, I sensed I was smacked because I had stated something with which the other poster did not agree. I stated my disagreement and objected against the smack. It seemed I was expected to swallow whatever frustration was vented at me through that smack. In each case, I felt a negative vibe directed at me or as if I had offended when I disagreed with or took a stand against that of the domme. I think part of whatever offense was taken was because of a sense of being publically challenged or questioned, which is understandable. I would feel similar discomfort. No one likes to be told they are wrong, especially not publically. However, I think that phenomenon comes with public discussions and there is responsibility to be taken.

I think the best course is, as you suggest in your post, to agree politely and respectfully. I think this approach works best when both parties use it.

Another observation I am considering is the cyclical effect of words or energy conveyed by words. For instance, if one person makes a post, and another responds with words or energy that carry an unfriendly tone, this tone will transmit and, likely, become contagious or expand the cycle. Yet another observation is that history of such energy exchanges becomes relevant. A snipe in one thread may in fact derive its basis from a past or separate discussion.

In my opinion, all subs are not perfect angels and neither are all dommes. I think each person has potential to be difficult and agreeable, and bring out in others the difficult and agreeable parts. What I am wondering is if we examine the situations that lead to the conclusions in the OP, what occurred in the big picture? How could have the sub responded differently, and how could have the domme responded differently? In this fuller picture, is the behavior of the sub impolite or is it unsubservient? Are the conclusions unchanged if we swap the dialog in the conversation? Most situations have two sides to a story and a middle ground lies somewhere. I expect the same is true for the matter at hand.

As for where to vent, indeed this place is the right place to vent. A rant by dommes is as much a rant as is one by subs about financial domination and the like. I think a rant serves a purpose and carries consequences. The purpose it serves is that it allows venting, and it identifies a a cause of disharmony. The consequence it brings is that it comes across as an individual or a collective attack agains the target of the rant. And a rant typically transmits negativity. Therefore, responses to a rant are similar to responses to an attack.

Identifying the cause of disharmony has potential for positive results by enabling communication. This potential is more likely to realize if the message is delivered in a disarming manner versus the typical emotive approach of rants which creates an us-versus-them air.

My two cents.

Cheers,

Sea



joyinslavery -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 3:02:23 PM)

petdave, just want to let you know that I respect your intellect.  I've enjoyed your posts! 

Very nice.   




undergroundsea -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 3:08:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave
Interesting... were you using the same screen name at that time? i remember Teramis (and certainly Akasha), but your name is unfamiliar (i didn't post, but i lurked a LOT in ASB, ASF, and later Alt.Torture).


I began my entry onto the internet in 1995 while I was in college. I would go at late hours the research lab where I worked and check into asb and asfd. As I browsed, I kept a document in microsoft word active so that I could quickly alt-tab to it if a crazy grad student walked in at midnight. I posted as seek'er. It was an anon address and there was an elaborate explanation of the name: to seek a broad scope of things including that signified by the apostrophe ;-) I was on there for only a few months. What name did you use?

There were some good discussions. Some hot stories. There was one that got the most of me when I thought I was alone in a computer lab. I was indeed alone in my lab. However, there was a paritition wall and another lab on the other side. And well. The rest of the story is kinda embarrassing ;-)

Cheers,

Sea



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