RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (Full Version)

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pixelslave -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 9:36:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet


quote:



This thread has only served to once again create a division between Dommes and submissives. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image]  
 - pixel



Ah.........What?

Respectfully,

chia* (the pet) 


What don't you understand and I'll try to explain it.  In a nutshell, it created an "us" vs. "them" mentality, thus the divisiveness I was speaking of; the latter having nothing to do with a power exchange.  Clear enough? [&:]
 
 - pixel



joyinslavery -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 10:03:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: joyinslavery
Does anyone take you seriously anymore? 


Hey there cycling friend, it's time for a ride!  In the mean time, here's a biology lesson for ya! [;)]
 
Do you know what happens when you feed a certain kind of animal hay?  More poop just continues to come out the other end (that particular end happens to coincide with the important part of that 4 legged animal's name).  Have you ever been to a zoo where they post the signs that say "please don't feed the animals"?  Perhaps that's part of the reason why! [8|]
 
 - pixel


Hey pixel! 

Let's go for a ride. 

'Yup' and 'affirmative' on the rest.  [sm=smile.gif] 



petdave -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 10:12:23 PM)

Hate is a simple manifestation
of the deep-seated self-directed frustration
All it does is promote fear and consternation...
It's the inability
to justify the enemy
and it fills us all with trepidation.
Them and us
Bending the significance to match a whimsied fable
Them and us
Tumult for the ignorant and purpose for the violence
a confused loose alliance forming them and us...
And I heard him say "We can take them all"
(We can take them all)
(But he didn't know who they were.
And he didn't know who we were.
And there wasn't any reason, or motive, or value to his story
just allegory, imitation glory,
and a desperate feeble search for a friend...)

(G. Graffin)



joyinslavery -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 10:31:10 PM)

To the OP...I've noticed some trends in this thread too. 

I suppose it would be helpful (but not necessary) to understand the motivation(s) behind the OP. 

Frankly though (not to be ugly about it), I'd be (pleasantly) surprised for a response.  



AAkasha -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 10:45:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joyinslavery

To the OP...I've noticed some trends in this thread too. 

I suppose it would be helpful (but not necessary) to understand the motivation(s) behind the OP. 

Frankly though (not to be ugly about it), I'd be (pleasantly) surprised for a response.  


The motivations were to open a discussion about a trend I observed.  I was looking through some old threads in 1998-1999 (on a different forum) and seeing some of the challenges that were common then, and it made me realize a few things, and I found it interesting enough to share it and see what others thought.   I think there are evolutions and trends in newsgroups like this one.

I am grateful that for the most part, one trend is completely gone -- and that is the trend for a small group of subs that consistently followed femdoms around to agree with them on everything and posture submissive in their posts as they did so.  I'm glad that didn't stick around!

Akasha



joyinslavery -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 10:47:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: joyinslavery

To the OP...I've noticed some trends in this thread too. 

I suppose it would be helpful (but not necessary) to understand the motivation(s) behind the OP. 

Frankly though (not to be ugly about it), I'd be (pleasantly) surprised for a response.  


The motivations were to open a discussion about a trend I observed.  I was looking through some old threads in 1998-1999 (on a different forum) and seeing some of the challenges that were common then, and it made me realize a few things, and I found it interesting enough to share it and see what others thought.   I think there are evolutions and trends in newsgroups like this one.

I am grateful that for the most part, one trend is completely gone -- and that is the trend for a small group of subs that consistently followed femdoms around to agree with them on everything and posture submissive in their posts as they did so.  I'm glad that didn't stick around!

Akasha



Thank You.   [sm=smile.gif]



chiaThePet -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 11:39:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet


quote:



This thread has only served to once again create a division between Dommes and submissives. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image]  
 - pixel



Ah.........What?

Respectfully,

chia* (the pet) 


What don't you understand and I'll try to explain it.  In a nutshell, it created an "us" vs. "them" mentality, thus the divisiveness I was speaking of; the latter having nothing to do with a power exchange.  Clear enough? [&:]
 
 - pixel


In "your" nutshell my boy, not mine. i see healthy exchange of ideas, feelings,
emotions and reasonings. That does not necessarily equal divisiveness in my
book. What is clear to me is the fact that when we come on board to voice
our opinions concerning issues, there is always someone whom wishes to
define everyone's purpose for them, according to their own by-laws. Talking
about issues does not build walls, not talking about them does.

Respectfully,

chia* (the pet)



MsCfromMelbourne -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 11:53:40 PM)

Hi

Hope I am not repeating what others have said

Yes, I agree there are some annoying characters in Ask  A Mistress, both male and female.  I try to skim over their self absorbed dross, but some threads get absolutely polluted with it

I have been posting in similar places since 1998 and I don't see any major changes:

1    Yes, there will always be some nasty men who love baiting self admitted kinky women. They see us as sluts and whores (hence the constant referral to our so-called "greed' whe we ask for same generosity men would willingly give a vanilla wife or partner).  Being kinky makes us - in mainstream judeo-christian society - easy targets to abuse without consequences.  Even easier to abuse over the anonymous net.  

2    Its not as much fun for these hate filled men to bait the submissive woman because big strong Doms will come to her rescue.  Its much more fun to bait Dominas, who tend to be proud loners and easy to pick off the pack.  Insecure Dominas tend to bite back too, which gives their tormentors a big kick

3    Then there will always be the "submissive" men who want to be challenged and conquered by stronger, smarter women.  They want their submission wrestled from them by a worthy opponent.  They love testing our strength by playing "catch me if you can".  In real life, they lead us on a  merry chase and often break our hearts.  Never again for me, thanks!

4    Then there are the passive submissives who would willingly submit if only they could find a nice lady willing to Dominate them.  These guys sit around wondering why no-one is cherishing their precious gift of submission - bloody good question!!!

5    Some women here complain that most the men aren't really submissives. I agree.  But I have even worse news for you.  Most the women here are not really Dominants.  Many people are just curious and good on them for coming and having a look.  Its obvious from their posts they are vanillas and will never love and appreciate the Femdom dynamic.  They are hellbent to change us into them - nice vanillas with a few fetish outfits in the wardrobe. This causes conflict.

6    Then there are the "Problem Dominas" .  Respect really does have to be earned.  There are some women posting here who ....truly....no heathy human being could like or respect.  I sure don't.  Why should the guys?  Just because they identify as submissive?  Rude and obnoxious women are..... rude and obnoxious!  Call them dominant or not, they are really unlikeable.  I wonder what kind of parents they must have had.

7     There's many other reasons for seeming rudeness by men in Ask a Mistress.  Probably as many individual reasons as there are perceived acts of rudeness.

Solutions:

Of course as others have said, its always smarter to ignore the hostile people until they lose interest and go away. We cannot possibly control others over the internet, so why bother trying? 

Attack the idea not the person and post your own truth from your own experience.  Readers can distinguish real honesty from petty bickering and complaints.

Also I think it helps to be positive in posts.  Some of us really do whine and complain a lot without proffering useful solutions.




joyinslavery -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/16/2007 11:59:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuidingLite

oh brother dont get it twisted. mystresses know their are some nice subbies here up in the boards but ya'll dont post enough to get uncovered from the passive aggressive secretly fear womens authority puppet weak boys. i dont care if you like my good mannered ways or not but u are one of the few who dont seem like u hate and are all scary of strong womens and show mature respectful acts.


Just a question (I think I might need to provide a 'template' though)...

I'm curious about your orientation.  Aren't you a lesbian dominant? 

If so, why do you spend so much time here 'discussing' male submission?   



MsRose -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 12:34:56 AM)

Unlike the OP, I haven't had the same experience or noticed an increasing "trend" in submissive "jerks". Most of the submissives I've encountered and interacted with have been quite pleasant, to tell you the truth. Some have been very clear on what it is they are looking for - not sure that I'd call that approach aggressive, but it might not sit well with some. I've experienced some rather rude persons on the dominant side of the equation though. I guess it just depends on who the person is, regardless of D/s orientation.



Politesub53 -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 12:39:43 AM)

i agree with Chia here, ( Dont worry, it wont last Chia [:D] ) i for one didnt find the OP divisive, i didnt feel it was aimed at everyone or even anyone here, but aimed at male submissives in general and as a question.
This is a forum last time i looked so everyone has a right to both pose and answer questions. If that right was taken away and we could ALL only ask certain questions or post on certain boards, how could we learn, as debate would be taken away ?

For better or worse everyone here is different, even people that generally agree with each other, wont do so constantly. The rudeness doesnt help, nor does impatience but generally debate does. Take away debate and you may as well take away the forum !

Has anyone learned anything here ? Not just to do with the OP but about the lifestyle in question ?... i have, thanks to YesMistressIrish, Her viewpoint of what a slave or submissive is differs from mine. i class myself as submissive, yet fit Her definition of slave. i have learned that with Her, like the term or not ( and i wouldnt lol ) i would be a slave. However i wouldnt be classed as that by every Mistress here, well maybe i would but i doubt it. So, and here is my point, even this thread, as heated as it has been, has taught me something.
[;)]



chiaThePet -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 1:11:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

i agree with Chia here, ( Dont worry, it wont last Chia [:D] ) i for one didnt find the OP divisive, i didnt feel it was aimed at everyone or even anyone here, but aimed at male submissives in general and as a question.
This is a forum last time i looked so everyone has a right to both pose and answer questions. If that right was taken away and we could ALL only ask certain questions or post on certain boards, how could we learn, as debate would be taken away ?

For better or worse everyone here is different, even people that generally agree with each other, wont do so constantly. The rudeness doesnt help, nor does impatience but generally debate does. Take away debate and you may as well take away the forum !

Has anyone learned anything here ? Not just to do with the OP but about the lifestyle in question ?... i have, thanks to YesMistressIrish, Her viewpoint of what a slave or submissive is differs from mine. i class myself as submissive, yet fit Her definition of slave. i have learned that with Her, like the term or not ( and i wouldnt lol ) i would be a slave. However i wouldnt be classed as that by every Mistress here, well maybe i would but i doubt it. So, and here is my point, even this thread, as heated as it has been, has taught me something.
[;)]


Thanks PS, i'll take it when i can get it, leaves a much better taste than nutshells.

Respectfully,

chia* (the pet)



undergroundsea -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 2:29:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I guess I don't spend enough time writing "in my opinion" and "in my experiences" but that's obviously what I mean.


Definitely use "in my opinion" and "in my experiences" rather than expect people to insert these words for you. Otherwise, they will think you are shoving your truth down their throats.

vs.

I think it would help your cause to use "in my opinion" and the like when relevant because it will disarm your words. I am not convinced people will insert these words on your behalf; instead they will respond with whatever energy your words, as put together by you, seem to convey.

I think choice of words makes a tremendous difference, and it is the responsibility and in the interest of the writer to use the words that convey what the writer wishes to convey.

quote:

I don't think submissive men should defer to dominant women, or not disagree with them openly; that's exactly what we want to see (the phenonenon in the early days of bdsm message boards was submissives would NOT disagree and posture submissive in postings, imagine how annoying that was?).


You and I have disagreed over a matter multiple times. I see the biggest such disagreement to be when I created a thread specifically (on another site) to challenge your assertion that submissive men have poor social skills. If there is any tension,  I invite you think for yourself how much of your response to me is due to a general response to disgareements (do you feel similarly about dommes who have disagreed with you as much), how much due to a disagreement from a sub, and how much because of whatever response I bring in general based on my personality.

quote:

 I'm talking about submissives that operate just on the edge of arrogant and obnoxious and wait to be called on it so they can say "Look, I am not your submissive so you can't tell me to behave in any manner, I will act how I want."  These submissives also pile onto femdom yahoos who may come around and post garbage that no one takes seriously because this gives them an opportunity to demonstrate how "non submissive they can be to a femdom who has not earned their respect" -- notice these subs don't pile onto the submissive yahoos/wankers threads? It doesn't give the same satisfaction, I would imagine.


I have been challenging a femdom yahoo who fits the description you write. Therefore, it feels to me that the comment about operating on the edge of arrogant and obnoxious is directed at me. To the extent your comment is directed at me, your theory behind my behavior--that I am challenging her to demonstrate how non-submissive I can be to a femdom who has not earned my respect--is incorrect.

There are two approaches for how to respond to unwanted behavior: ingore it or call it. In my observation, ignoring the behavior has not deterred GuidingLite. Instead, it has emboldened her. Pixel has ignored her much of the time and she has now moved to insulting his domme as well. You may not have seen the recent post in this thread in which she did so because the moderator deleted it.

I have been using the second approach and calling her behavior. I think most people seek general approval. Whatever I have observed about her level of security and insecurity, I sense general approval matters to her. And I think being called on her behavior makes some difference--perhaps not a definitive one but some nonetheless. I saw it in the shift in energy and unnatural posts the first time I listed the multiple conflicts she has had. I see it now in her attempts to reach out for support and be agreeable.

If she can learn that she will be bit back when she bites, perhaps it will deter her. If she can see that her behavior brings general negative attention to her, perhaps the discomfort in negativity will deter her. Her conflict with me began because I called her on how she was treating others. If she can see that her attacks on forums posters brings general disapproval against her (versus disapproval from her target alone) and broadens the range of her conflict, perhaps it will deter her.

I have my own thoughts and think them to be reasonable and fair-minded for the most part. I have disagreed with dommes, doms, female subs, and male subs. Why cannot my disagreement with a domme be for the same reason that you or someone else might choose to disagree with any given person? Why does an ulterior motive have to be assigned to my choice to disagree?

Cheers,

Sea



undergroundsea -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 3:39:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
i agree with Chia here


Aha! It's because he's a submissive, isn't it? If he was a domme, I bet you wouldn't agree so much. I bet you'd be making fun of socks he wears just to show that you can. And then you'd say only uncool people use the toothpaste he uses. I am onto you, Mister!

quote:

i for one didnt find the OP divisive


That means you and I disagree. Aha! I know why you are disagreeing. It's some form of chest beating, right? And you are doing this chest beating because you are  trying to suggest I am a gorilla with fleas and you are trying to mock me by metaphorically mimicking me. That's it, isn't it? Now are you going to say I use uncool toothpaste? Well I don't brush my teeth. So you see? Lies! All lies! I am onto you, Mister!

;-)

quote:

i didnt feel it was aimed at everyone or even anyone here, but aimed at male submissives in general


But comments aimed at male submissives in general are aimed at male submissives then.

Perhaps part of my response is due to a fault of mine, where I allow my perceptions about past threads from the OP to influence how I perceive newer threads. In the past, I have thought her to make what I saw to be unfair or invalid generalizations against male subs. So perhaps I had a bit of here-we-go-again response upon reading the thread.

I think a thread where a domme lays a rant or lists generalizations about subs and several other dommes come in to second the rant creates an us-versus-them air. And that is what I see to have occurred in the earlier portion of this thread. An us-versus-them air is not irreversibly destructive. However, it diminishes communication because the messages are hindered by the defensiveness an us-versus-them air creates.

I think the better discussion began when Lady Pact, Lady Hugs and various other posters brought a calmer energy and balance to this thread.

As for whether the comments were aimed at anyone here, I did feel that some of the OP's comments included me.

I do believe in respect equality in a relationship with respect to basic worth of a person. I think whatever inequality exists in any given relationship is due the choice of those involved and not because there is a rule that a submissive should accept social inequality. I think this stance is fair. The comment about fighting for that last 1% comes across to me as a sarcastic exaggeration.

I do believe in BDSM compatibility and that the satisfaction of a submissive matters. This belief is not a selfish one, nor is it a mask for a my-needs-first agenda, as the OP alleges.

I have said in the past that I do not engage in relationships based on material wants. Thus, I respond to that point as well and find that the paragraph is full of exaggerations, distortions, and generalizations. To want a relationship that is based on mutual attraction and not on material wants is not the same as not buying any gifts voluntarily.

The OP paints with a broad brush and the subject of the thread creates a tone for how she is describing those who fit any of what she says.

Over time I have seen the OP to seek to stimulate intelligent discussion, and to pass on to subs what is meant to be useful advice. However the thread went and the response, I imagine that was her intent which I can appreciate. In my opinion, her choice of words and overall approach to constructing her post undermines this objective.

Cheers,

Sea



Politesub53 -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 4:54:08 AM)

Hi sea, i have stopped beating my chest, cleaning my teeth and wearing socks. [:D]

Here is a comment from my post 65# on this thread.

I notice the rudeness between people isnt restricted to any board, nor sex, or any inclination. Some of this must stem from prior events in a persons life, thats only natural i think.

So if fully get the part about prior threads ect. i posted a day or two ago that i try and get past whats been posted before and post on each topic by its merit. This enables me to argue on opinions and not on feelings.
[;)]



KaramelGoddess -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 6:14:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hi sea, i have stopped beating my chest, cleaning my teeth and wearing socks. [:D]

Here is a comment from my post 65# on this thread.

I notice the rudeness between people isnt restricted to any board, nor sex, or any inclination. Some of this must stem from prior events in a persons life, thats only natural i think.

So if fully get the part about prior threads ect. i posted a day or two ago that i try and get past whats been posted before and post on each topic by its merit. This enables me to argue on opinions and not on feelings.
[;)]


Not only polite but pretty damn smart too.
Enjoy your Sunday hun.
~Kara



Politesub53 -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 7:28:30 AM)

Thank You Maam. Its nice to be noticed.

Have a great day as well.

politesub [;)]



chiaThePet -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 7:35:51 AM)

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
i agree with Chia here

sea said;
Aha! It's because he's a submissive, isn't it? If he was a domme, I bet you wouldn't agree so much. I bet you'd be making fun of socks he wears just to show that you can. And then you'd say only uncool people use the toothpaste he uses. I am onto you, Mister!   


If i was a Domme, he'd be cooking me breakfast right now and agreeing that i
look fabulous even with the rising sun. i tend to take socks and fill them with
toothpaste to hang around the exterior of my humble abode, keeps those pesky
nieghbors at bay and allows only the cool people to venture forth. Mostly,
people make fun of me for that little arm with the hand growing out of the side
of my head. Though it does come in "handy" during those "all in favor" moments.

Respectfully,

chia* (the pet)

edited cause i have a thing for ed



LadyClaudiaVan -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 7:48:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KaramelGoddess

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hi sea, i have stopped beating my chest, cleaning my teeth and wearing socks. [:D]

Here is a comment from my post 65# on this thread.

I notice the rudeness between people isnt restricted to any board, nor sex, or any inclination. Some of this must stem from prior events in a persons life, thats only natural i think.

So if fully get the part about prior threads ect. i posted a day or two ago that i try and get past whats been posted before and post on each topic by its merit. This enables me to argue on opinions and not on feelings.
[;)]


Not only polite but pretty damn smart too.
Enjoy your Sunday hun.
~Kara


I have to say I agree with you KaramelGoddess, Politesub has many attractive qualities. I presume to say he not only gets along well with all kinds of women but also I presume to say he attracts them to him in addition. What you see is what you get with this gentleman.



Politesub53 -> RE: Submissive's Lib (or, submissive jerks) (6/17/2007 7:54:08 AM)

Blushes...... yes i do that real time and am red now.... Thank You Maam



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