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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 1:57:09 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You mean that men and women have a choice not to procreate before making love, but that if they find themselves pregnant after knowing each other biblically, she should have no choice but to bear the child.


yes, that's exactly what I mean.
It's not magic, you don't just "find" yourself pregnant.


...you may do if you have been raped...amazing how absolute positions can become complex when faced with real life........

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:07:29 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You mean that men and women have a choice not to procreate before making love, but that if they find themselves pregnant after knowing each other biblically, she should have no choice but to bear the child.


yes, that's exactly what I mean.
It's not magic, you don't just "find" yourself pregnant.


Hmmmm... some women find themselves pregnant following a rape. Some women get pregnant because contraception failed. Some women who are happily pregnant find the pregnancy endangers their life... the list goes on.

So how are you going to go about it? Force women to give birth? Good luck.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:08:10 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		ooops, sorry.
 
Any way, any one can go to the web site and click on the email link and write to them.  i did and i got a reply back in 3 minutes to my first email that simply asked if they were still in need and the reply was "Yes" and that the page had just gone up on Sunday, June 18. 
 
When i sent a follow-up email, that asked questions, such as:

What their ages are.
Do either of you have any other children or have either of you ever had to face parenthood before this?  Do you have family that is able and willing to help you?Why did you pick the dollar amount of 50,000?  It costs a lot more than that to raise a child.  What have you planned in the way of being able to continue to pay for the care of your child, once the $50,000 is spent?  Will you be having another online fundraiser to keep your child when the initial money is gone?  Will you also be having an online fundraiser to put your child through college? What type of life will you be able to give your child, after you use up the money you raise?  If you find yourselves in this situation again, will you be looking for online donations for that child, as well? i still have not gotten a reply.  i guess they don't need my money that badly, after all, or i would think they would at least respond with something. Like i said, this isn't about pro-life vs. pro-choice, it's about trying to make some easy cash over the Internet. ____________slave joy
Owned property of Master David
 
"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." -- F. Nietzsche
quote:

[Mod Note:  please don't paste received email or email addresses in the forums]

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:11:15 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Ok, yeah, I can agree with that.


Great. I was wondering if I was way off base, as I often am.

quote:

I never said you did, Aswad.  I was trying to imagine the mindset of someone who would pay them to go get sterilized.  However, many people do seem to have that mindset though.


Point taken. I got a bit defensive. My apologies.

I agree many people are dismissive of addicts, and wrongfully so. However, the mindset of someone paying for that kind of thing (sterilization) is a different thing, and usually that of any well-meaning individual: "There's too much suffering in the world. If I can make even just a little bit of it go away, I will have made the world a better place. I have to try."

As I've mentioned in the past, Hanlon's Razor ("Do not attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.") is as valid as, and a subset of, Occam's Razor ("Do not needlessly multiply entities; if a simple theory and a complicated theory give the same results, the simpler theory is probably better."). Very few people do things because they want to be "evil" or whatever.

Of course, this is also kind of a pet peeve of mine...

Here in Norway, we have a political party (SV; lit.: socialist left) that recently formed a coalition government with the labour party and our cultural equivalent to the democrats (SP; lit.: centre party, formerly lit.: farmers' party / district party). Now, SV is full of good intentions, but they're building a 8-lane one-way highway to hell with them.

And I repeatedly try to explain to the people who vote for them that they aren't getting what they really wanted. They may get some, or all, of what they asked for, but not what they wanted. In software engineering, my hardest and most important task is finding out what the customer wants, as opposed to what they say they want. That generalizes very well. Of course, people rarely listen, in either field, unless you are an authority figure, and preferrably a lot older than themselves and not quite as qualified (qualifications are often intimidating).

Sometimes, I just want to go with the modified mindset from Buffy: "Oh, you poor things. Your suffering has to end." and then kill everyone.

But then I pound my head against the wall a little bit, and it all feels so much better.

             

quote:

Yep, confusing me with another poster.


My sincere apologies for that, then.

quote:

Agreed...if you see an earlier post, hopefully that will explain what I was trying to say when I mentioned Nazi's, etc.


~nod~

I still think it was a bit off, since the Nazis were forcing people, rather than providing encouragement.

quote:

Oh, I know.  You do have a way of being the devil's advocate, for sure.


A Christian can have sympathy for the devil, too.

I'm glad you realize it. Not everyone does. I'm not always arguing my own views on this forum.

As the profile states, I'm a fairly private person. I mostly know what I will/won't share.
Identifying information and things that "pin me down" don't hit the public forums.
My version of Søren Kierkgaard's line about labelling him, in a way.
I'm sure I've seen it used as a tagline by someone. mistoferin?

But that doesn't prevent me from trying to get people to consider the angles that I think will give constructive debate, or attempting to clarify other people's positions when there appears to be a communication problem.

The discourse is gratifying in itself; mens gratia mentis or something.

quote:

As usual, you did very well. [...] Thanks, as always, for the sensible, civil discourse. I always learn something from your posts.


Thanks for the compliments, and for giving me something substantial to think around ("about", but like something to structure the argument around).

As I said, it's been a pleasure, again.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:11:52 PM   
SimplySubmissive


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You mean that men and women have a choice not to procreate before making love, but that if they find themselves pregnant after knowing each other biblically, she should have no choice but to bear the child.


yes, that's exactly what I mean.
It's not magic, you don't just "find" yourself pregnant.


...you may do if you have been raped...amazing how absolute positions can become complex when faced with real life........

Rape doesn't negate birth control, last time I checked, unless one only uses condoms or only spermicide. I have lived long enough, been through enough to see all sides of this subject.
I know rape is a terrible thing. I know it would terrible to carry a child conceived in rape.
I also believe that 2 wrongs don't make one right. I am a woman, I know about all these things. There are many wonderful things about being a woman, as well as some burdens.
I don't believe I will change minds here. I was just voicing my opinion.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:18:53 PM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		But I for one cannot take a chemical birth control. I'm fairly sure that there are others out there that can't use them either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You mean that men and women have a choice not to procreate before making love, but that if they find themselves pregnant after knowing each other biblically, she should have no choice but to bear the child.


yes, that's exactly what I mean.
It's not magic, you don't just "find" yourself pregnant.


...you may do if you have been raped...amazing how absolute positions can become complex when faced with real life........

Rape doesn't negate birth control, last time I checked, unless one only uses condoms or only spermicide. I have lived long enough, been through enough to see all sides of this subject.
I know rape is a terrible thing. I know it would terrible to carry a child conceived in rape.
I also believe that 2 wrongs don't make one right. I am a woman, I know about all these things. There are many wonderful things about being a woman, as well as some burdens.
I don't believe I will change minds here. I was just voicing my opinion.



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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:20:22 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

Rape doesn't negate birth control, last time I checked, unless one only uses condoms or only spermicide. I have lived long enough, been through enough to see all sides of this subject.
I know rape is a terrible thing. I know it would terrible to carry a child conceived in rape.



.....unbelievable.......not only do you seem to suggest that rapists can be relied upon to use birth control, but you would further brutalise a woman who had been raped by forcing her to carry the child to term.........i'm not sure you've been through enough in your life if you really feel like that. 

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:27:19 PM   
SimplySubmissive


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

Rape doesn't negate birth control, last time I checked, unless one only uses condoms or only spermicide. I have lived long enough, been through enough to see all sides of this subject.
I know rape is a terrible thing. I know it would terrible to carry a child conceived in rape.



.....unbelievable.......not only do you seem to suggest that rapists can be relied upon to use birth control, but you would further brutalise a woman who had been raped by forcing her to carry the child to term.........i'm not sure you've been through enough in your life if you really feel like that. 

Of course I don't suggest a rapist would be relied upon to use birth control. I personally take responsability for mine, as I beleive should everyone.
You have no idea about my life.
I am not being ugly to those whose views differ from mine. I suggest you do the same.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:29:06 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...you may do if you have been raped...amazing how absolute positions can become complex when faced with real life........



Good point, philosophy.

What always amuses me is when faced with issues like "the mother-to-be was gang raped" or "carrying it to term will kill the mother" or the like, the anti-abortion crowd often backs away from their absolutist position and says
"Well, in those cases..."

To which I generally respond "Why is abortion murdering an unborn child unless that unborn child is the product of rape or will kill the mother, in which case abortion is not murdering an unborn child?"    Failing to establish any sort of logical position, what the anti-abortionist generally does is resort to ranting and invective and emotion to prove their argument that abortion is bad.

I dont even begin to fathom it.  Why I dont style myself as "pro-abortion."  I am pro-choice.  Carrying a baby to term, keeping it, putting it up for adoption, getting an abortion, etc., are all choices.  I dont have to carry the baby to term.  I dont have to live with the broken heart of going in for an abortion, giving it up for adoption, carrying a child to term knowing it has a genetic abnormality and will suffer in miserable pain for 6 years and then die a horrible death, or whatever.

One of the issues I had with the law they tried to run through Congress a few years back is that the way it was worded, a woman could be brought up on manslaughter charges if the fetus spontaneously aborted all on it's own.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:33:55 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

'Pro-life' has a multitude of meanings, but it's best known for its anti-choice stance, isn't it?


It sure is. Many things are known for something not inherent to it. So let's discard the term.
There's five actual stances, four of which are found in the West, all called different things.
These are (and note that the cursive text doesn't reflect my views, but popular names):
  • It is a choice for the parents. (typically called pro-choice or men's rights)
  • It is a choice for the mother. (typically called pro-choice or feminism)
  • It is a choice for the father. (typically called male chauvinism or muslim pigs)
  • Society chooses abortion. (typically called eugenics)
  • Society chooses birth. (typically called pro-life)
However, the term pro-life, in its strictest sense, only means "in favour of life". It is valid to call oneself pro-life without being against-choice. But the organizations involve like to have nice, clean and euphemistic slogans that people can rally to and chant like mantras.

Reality, as usual, is more complicated. But the organizations all have agendas. None of those who call themselves "pro-choice" or "pro-life" are on any side but their own. They are about politics, not people. And then stuff gets dumbed down.

I'm both pro-life and pro-choice, in that while I feel there's something sad about ending a life, unborn or not, I still think it should ultimately be up to the parent(s), as the child is, at that stage, an endoparasitic organism, after all.

My take on it is that, insofar it is, effectively speaking, self-defense for the parent(s), then it's acceptable. I use a wider sense of the term "self-defense" than usual in this context, of course. However, I do not feel that it is acceptable to, for instance, use abortion as a substitute for contraception (yes, I know a woman who's had 6 of them so far, because she doesn't like how a condom feels, and doesn't worry about STDs).

quote:

Please explain to me why being pro-life, thus anti-choice, is being against infanticide, because I don't think abortion constitutes infanticide.


"Thus" is wrong, as one does not necessarily follow from the other. If you want to use the term exclusively in the anti-choice sense, capitalize it as "Pro-Life", thus naming the movement properly, rather than simply saying "in favour of life", which after all does not imply not being in favour of choice. Proper names are capitalized to distinguish them in that way, avoiding confusion.

Infanticide is, of course, not the correct term, you're right. Sorry. I was lazy.
Lawfully killing a living, human organism has many words for it, I guess.
And I picked the wrong one. "Termination" will do.

quote:

PS: I hope you didn't intend on comparing abortion with infanticide, or murder at Gitmo, because it would be terribly offensive to the many women on this site who have had abortions, I, for one, being one of them.


I'm trying to explain why your statement was terribly offensive to the regular Pro-Life crowd.
In their view of the world, abortion is murder, and would be comparable.
In my view, it's not outright comparable, though it's still killing.
As I've said in the past, I'm okay with killing sometimes.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:43:54 PM   
mypath2lvgD


Posts: 69
Joined: 5/1/2007
Status: offline 		I noticed that they didn't bother to date this plea...with no noted start or end date to this plea, I would say that they can run the scam as long as they want and still find someone to give them more money.

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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:44:11 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

Rape doesn't negate birth control, last time I checked, unless one only uses condoms or only spermicide. I have lived long enough, been through enough to see all sides of this subject.
I know rape is a terrible thing. I know it would terrible to carry a child conceived in rape.



.....unbelievable.......not only do you seem to suggest that rapists can be relied upon to use birth control, but you would further brutalise a woman who had been raped by forcing her to carry the child to term.........i'm not sure you've been through enough in your life if you really feel like that. 


You haven't answered my point about failed contraception - something that happened to me, at a relatively mature age, after having been very careful all my life.

Also, do you really think a rapist is going to make sure his victim doesn't get pregnant?!!!

It's medieval.

PS: and are you saying that women should be on contraception at all times in case they get raped?

PPS: apologies philosophy, I fucked up when I hit the 'reply' button. Of course, this reply wasn't destined to you. Sorry again.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/19/2007 3:04:26 PM >

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:47:04 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

'Pro-life' has a multitude of meanings, but it's best known for its anti-choice stance, isn't it?


In my view, it's not outright comparable, though it's still killing.
As I've said in the past, I'm okay with killing sometimes.



You are avoiding my point. Abortion is the termination of a life that isn't fully formed.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/19/2007 2:54:11 PM >

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:50:17 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

still disingenuous Aswad


This is admittedly not a good day for me.
If it makes you feel better, feel free to put an extra "S" in my nick.

quote:

a woman's pregnanacy is nothing like a prisoner in any kind of jail, particulary Gitmo.


Well, the only similarity is the "X is in Y" bit, aka location, granted.

quote:

The vast majority of people on the planet see Gitmo as an abomination in the face of justice


Indeed. Hence using it as an example.
For Pro-Life people, abortions and their legality are "an abomination in the face of justice".

The conditions under which killing is considered justified vary over time.
So do the conditions under which it is considered OK to dismiss objections with "butt out".

Hence, saying the issue boils down to "keeping one's nose out of other people's cunts" is grossly oversimplifying, and entirely dismissing the views of the opposing camp in a manner that is identical to how they in turn dismiss parents' choices. Anyone who is complaining that others aren't respecting their choices should avoid such simplification, IMO, as it borders on hipocrisy, if it isn't in fact over the border already.

quote:

now, how exactly is that in any way like pregnancy?


I'm not discussing pregnancy, but its termination, and people's views on that.

quote:

Or did you pick a really bad way of explaining an idea?


Apparently, I did, as none of those who responded to that post "got" it.
Mea culpa.

quote:

If so, you may want to try again.


Thank you for giving me that opportunity.
I hope you will find that the explanation in this post elucidates my point.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:54:00 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

Rape doesn't negate birth control, last time I checked, unless one only uses condoms or only spermicide. I have lived long enough, been through enough to see all sides of this subject.
I know rape is a terrible thing. I know it would terrible to carry a child conceived in rape.



.....unbelievable.......not only do you seem to suggest that rapists can be relied upon to use birth control, but you would further brutalise a woman who had been raped by forcing her to carry the child to term.........i'm not sure you've been through enough in your life if you really feel like that. 

Of course I don't suggest a rapist would be relied upon to use birth control. I personally take responsability for mine, as I beleive should everyone.
You have no idea about my life.
I am not being ugly to those whose views differ from mine. I suggest you do the same.


Slight confusion here.
How does a woman personally take responsibility for contraception when she is raped?  Is she supposed to ask the rapist for a private moment to insert her diaphram?  Wear a coil in case someone decides to rape her in the future?  Or are you implying everyone should take the pill (which is not advised in the long term by medical professionals as well as many people being unable to take oral or implant contraception)?  Unless you are talking about the morning after pill? Look forward to your response.
 
Peace
the.dark.

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 2:56:14 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

I know rape is a terrible thing.


i'm not sure you've been through enough in your life if you really feel like that. 


Emphasis mine.

Try rereading it a few times. That wording comes across fairly wrong, to me. One implication in particular stood out that I don't think you mean, but which I know some people who might have meant. On an online forum, it is not easy to know which is the case. I would suggest clarifying whether you feel there is more she "needs" to go through, because that's how it parses for me.

And I don't think the bit that is implied as "missing" necessarily is, nor that it should be added if it is.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 3:00:09 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Unless you are talking about the morning after pill? Look forward to your response.
 

 
Of course, the morning after pill prevents implantation of a fertilized egg (collection of cells) into the uterus of a woman.
 
In other words, except for the matter of scale of complexity, there is very little difference between this cell or collection of cells and an implanted embroyo a few months old.
 
They are both abortion.
 
The absolutist crowd would refuse to allow a woman to take the morning-after pill, and have rallied diligently to prevent it's use in the United States.
 
Sinergy
 

_____________________________

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 3:00:50 PM   
SimplySubmissive


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplySubmissive

Rape doesn't negate birth control, last time I checked, unless one only uses condoms or only spermicide. I have lived long enough, been through enough to see all sides of this subject.
I know rape is a terrible thing. I know it would terrible to carry a child conceived in rape.



.....unbelievable.......not only do you seem to suggest that rapists can be relied upon to use birth control, but you would further brutalise a woman who had been raped by forcing her to carry the child to term.........i'm not sure you've been through enough in your life if you really feel like that. 


You haven't answered my point about failed contraception - something that happened to me, at a relatively mature age, after having been very careful all my life.

Also, do you really think a rapist is going to make sure his victim doesn't get pregnant?!!!

It's medieval.


I addressed both of these. The woman should take responsability for birth control, always. As in, pills, shots, IUD, whatever.
Hopefully, in a way that doesn't involve the male at all. Condoms are a back up for bc, best used for safer sex.
Yes, I know there will be accidents, and problems, and difficulties. We are  trying to prevent something that the body is built to do.
There are no perfect answers to every senario. That is why I said what I did about being a woman. There are terrible things that happen in this world.   I know that. 
I know  all pregnancies  are not celebrated, and that even mature, smart women get pregnant when they don't wish to have a child.
I just beleive that we should focus on the prevention, rather than what to do after the fact.
We have the technology, it can be done. If everyone stopped fighting about what to do after, and worked together on how to take care of this before, we would have a lot less problems in this world.  If all the time and effort and energy went into research and education, and supply, maybe we'd all be better off.
No, I don't have an answer as to what you should do when pregnant, and don't want the baby, or the pregnancy. 
I have my beleifs, you have yours.

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 3:05:17 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Awwwww.... now Sinergy you went and spoilt it now, that was my next point!
 
So many people are quick to say take the morning after pill - thats a cool option as if its not abortion - because that is exactly what it is.
I just don't see how a woman can be responsible for contraception during rape.  The whole concept makes my head spin.
 
Peace
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Pro-lifers. Put up or Shut up. - 6/19/2007 3:05:45 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Though I believe it is now available over the counter, isn't it?

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