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White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/21/2007 8:03:41 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		 [snip]WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is nearing a decision to close the Guantanamo Bay detainee facility and move its terror suspects to military prisons elsewhere, The Associated Press has learned. [snip] 

[snip]They could block the proposal, but pressure to close Guantanamo has been building since a Supreme Court decision last year that found illegal a previous system for prosecuting enemy combatants. Recent rulings by military judges threw out charges against two terrorism suspects under a new tribunal scheme [snip]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070622/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_guantanamo


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/21/2007 8:04:24 PM >

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/21/2007 8:04:13 PM   
philosophy


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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/21/2007 8:37:05 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		And they said on the News tonight that a lot of them would be shipped off to Afgan prisons.
They'll be praying to allah for a butt pyramid when those Afganis get their hands on them!

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/21/2007 8:49:25 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
They'll be praying to allah for a butt pyramid when those Afganis get their hands on them!



     Completely irrelevant, Popeye.  None of those who have been using Gitmo as a talking point are going to give a crap about how the detainees are treated once we send them back.  It's all about Bush Baaaa-aad and winning their little battle to prove it.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 6/21/2007 8:50:17 PM >

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/21/2007 9:03:28 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
They'll be praying to allah for a butt pyramid when those Afganis get their hands on them!



    Completely irrelevant, Popeye.  None of those who have been using Gitmo as a talking point are going to give a crap about how the detainees are treated once we send them back.  It's all about Bush Baaaa-aad and winning their little battle to prove it.


Yeah, I think you're right on that.
Funny though why some people want al qeada savages treated "humanely" and they accuse the U.S. of not being humane.
They should film those savages in GTMO when they tell them they're going to prison,...in .....Afganistan!

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/21/2007 9:36:18 PM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		If we don't treat prisoners humanly, then what's the difference between them and us?



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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/21/2007 9:44:01 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		We should not engage in torture, period. It is against an agreement that we signed. We are hyper-powerful, and should hold ourselves to a higher standard. "Little Johnny tortures too.", is a crummy justification.
 
That said, I agree with Here (or Harry) ... I don't actually believe anyone gives a fuck about these people, past their usefulness as a way to bash, whomever they wish to bash.

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/21/2007 9:46:23 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If we don't treat prisoners humanly, then what's the difference between them and us?





      Weren't you suggesting that it was perfectly OK for the Iraqis to behead "the spy," Nicholas Berg, not all that long ago? 

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/21/2007 10:27:27 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If we don't treat prisoners humanly, then what's the difference between them and us?





Weren't you suggesting that it was perfectly OK for the Iraqis to behead "the spy," Nicholas Berg, not all that long ago?



More pointing out they hypocrisy of those trotting him out as an example of the barbaric nature of "The Enemy".

Who is to say the spy didn't receive due process?

Not a heck of a lot of real REPORTING comes out of the middle east, does it? Lot of COVERAGE, but that's not the same.

For each and every example, there is a counter-example, but I don't think any tit-for-tat really excuses US Troops raping a 14 year old girl, then murdering her and her family, does it?

Look, here's a hypothetical.

If you could torture a man, to reveal a secret which may save 100,000 lives, just to throw out a number....

MANY would say, "Sure, you gotta do, what you gotta do..."

I wonder if they would also support raping his 14 year old daughter to death in front of him to get the secret?

It's just HER and HIM vs. MAYBE saving a lot of people, isn't it?

That's why THE GOOD GUYS DON'T TORTURE PEOPLE. And if you torture people, YOU AREN'T GOOD GUYS ANYMORE.




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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/21/2007 10:39:48 PM   
tenderfootmaster


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Status: offline 		Ok, Ok....

I am a 31E Internment/Resettlement Specialist for the United States Army.(A special MP for correctional facilities) I, of course, work in the only maximum security prison for military prisoners wearing our uniform (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and even Coast Guard)

I know many, many soldiers who work in those camps and heard their personal stories, some of which I am unable to speak of, the main point I am getting at is that we need to shut down Guantanamo Bay detainee facilities and put them somewhere else like our own homeland and I will tell you why.

The soldiers there are isolated, not being able to leave the base. You are limited strictly to what you are able to do and depression is very high in most cases. The soldiers down there work 12 shifts with an hour of PT and even sometimes command maintenance, making it a 14 hour work day! They usually work 7-14 days straight with only 1-2 days off in between. Give our G.I.'s a break!

(I realize this may have nothing to do with the article but I needed to put that out there!)

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 12:30:16 AM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Funny though why some people want al qeada savages treated "humanely" and they accuse the U.S. of not being humane.
They should film those savages in GTMO when they tell them they're going to prison,...in .....Afganistan!


We don't know who or how many of the people in Gitmo are savages since none of them have been charged, tried or convicted of any crimes. They aren't even accused.

If you are going to export democracy through the barrel of a gun you should at least be seen to uphold the rule of law in territories under your control. Gitmo is a farce and a disgrace. The world sees its hypocrisy.


Z.


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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 2:04:42 AM   
subrob1967


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Status: offline 		Uh, we don't strap 10lbs of Semtex onto unmentionables and send them off to die.

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 5:55:55 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tenderfootmaster

Ok, Ok....

I am a 31E Internment/Resettlement Specialist for the United States Army.(A special MP for correctional facilities) I, of course, work in the only maximum security prison for military prisoners wearing our uniform (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and even Coast Guard)

I know many, many soldiers who work in those camps and heard their personal stories, some of which I am unable to speak of, the main point I am getting at is that we need to shut down Guantanamo Bay detainee facilities and put them somewhere else like our own homeland and I will tell you why.

The soldiers there are isolated, not being able to leave the base. You are limited strictly to what you are able to do and depression is very high in most cases. The soldiers down there work 12 shifts with an hour of PT and even sometimes command maintenance, making it a 14 hour work day! They usually work 7-14 days straight with only 1-2 days off in between. Give our G.I.'s a break!

(I realize this may have nothing to do with the article but I needed to put that out there!)


Very excellent point

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 5:59:48 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
They'll be praying to allah for a butt pyramid when those Afganis get their hands on them!



    Completely irrelevant, Popeye.  None of those who have been using Gitmo as a talking point are going to give a crap about how the detainees are treated once we send them back.  It's all about Bush Baaaa-aad and winning their little battle to prove it.



You know, as someone that used to be a card carrying member of the ACLU I have to tell you, I DO care very much that our government does not attempt to circumvent the constitution... It is not that I use all the evil shit Bush does as a justification to say he is bad... quite the opposite, I look at all the evil shit he does and I know he is bad... big diff.

To try to paint people that do not illegal wars, torturing people without due process, extraordinary rendition, and spying on the American people as though "well they just do not like Bush so it doesn't matter what they say even though it is valid" is not honest discourse.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 6:38:36 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Uh, we don't strap 10lbs of Semtex onto unmentionables and send them off to die.


After they are found guilty of Capital crimes by a jury of their peers in a court of law, in accordance with the Constitution, then execution can happen any way you want to.

You *CANNOT* skip over due process.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 7:10:26 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

To try to paint people that do not illegal wars, torturing people without due process, extraordinary rendition, and spying on the American people as though "well they just do not like Bush so it doesn't matter what they say even though it is valid" is not honest discourse.



       When it comes from a position of denial about the conduct of the other side?  Try again.

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 7:58:48 AM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		What the OTHER SIDE does is IRRELEVANT to how the US is expected to conduct itself.

Once the US started depriving people of Due Process, they became Evil. How evil? Does it matter to the victim if there are 6 million ahead of them?

Evil is as Evil does.

And no-one who supports torture has bothered to answer my hypothetical, I see. Good. I'll take that as a sign that it made people stop and think about the implications of this shit.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 8:16:41 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

To try to paint people that do not illegal wars, torturing people without due process, extraordinary rendition, and spying on the American people as though "well they just do not like Bush so it doesn't matter what they say even though it is valid" is not honest discourse.



      When it comes from a position of denial about the conduct of the other side?  Try again.


I will echo farglebargle, what other side? You mean you seriously are unaware that many conservatives (some would argue "true" conservatives) do not like torture? How about amnesty international? Do you believe they are partisan? What about hawks like John McCain, do you think that he is just on some sort of side trying to make America look bad by coming out against what is going on in GITMO... in my opinion you are the only one that is trying to make this a partisan debate and not a debate about the true issues, which is that the Bush junta (note I did not say republican) is a clan bent on committing war crimes... defend it all you like, but it is what it is... and if your best defense is whining about some "other side".. it is a piss poor one.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 8:58:28 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Sorry but I'm just not one of those people who has any type of sympathy for al qeada in any way, shape or form.
Wouldn't it be funny if, after 6 months of being housed in an Afgani prison the lefties start yelling; "Open up GTMO again! Afgani prisons are too cruel!"
Oh, I don't think so! lol


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RE: White House near decision to close Gitmo - 6/22/2007 9:13:08 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sorry but I'm just not one of those people who has any type of sympathy for al qeada in any way, shape or form.



Fucking PROVE that they *ARE* guilty of a crime, and then you can sentence them however the Law permits.

Is that too hard to understand?

In New York, ANYONE picked up is Arraigned within 72 hours, or they are considered deprived of Due Process.

What's the difference? That they're NOT in the State of New York? Where is the Federal Government delegated that authority, because if it's not Delegated, it's not Lawful. How can the CREATION of The States, have ANY authority exceeding those States, it's Creator?

The Declaration of Independence explicitly states that relationship. We are endowed by OUR CREATOR with certain unalienable rights. Now whether you consider that Creator to be G-d, Gaia, The Woman who Gestated and Bore you, is irrelevant. The SUBORDINATE is inferior to the Creator.

The People
The Great State of New York
The Federal Government

Shit rolls downhill and so does Lawful Delegate Authority.

UNLAWFUL authority just springs to existence from the mind of the Damned Hamiltonians and their supporters.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 6/22/2007 9:14:54 AM >

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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