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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 4:40:08 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

They were performing a road block where they stop every five cars (How in the fuck is this legal?)  They also stop anyone who they feel might be doing or involved in something illegal...At random...No five cars....just stop whomever they feel like.


It is perfectly legal because the USSC has ruled that randomly selected vehicle searches fall within their interpretation of the 'reasonable' search requirement of the 4th Amendment...and what you call  'might be doing or involved in something illegal', is more commonly called 'probable cause'... also held to fall within the scope of that same reasonableness standard

And as mentioned in other threads, when it comes to what is or isn't legal or reasonable, we can all have opinions, but only a handful of judges have any enforceable say-so in the matter..


From speaking with my friend he believed what they were doing was illegal...My understanding is that you cannot pull someone over at random just because they appear to be shady and not participating in an illegal activity.

Just like it is illegal to stop me or anyone else based on how my appearance might differ in relationship to the neighborhood I might be driving through. (racial profiling)

I always thought the police have to give a specific reason for pulling you over...(outside of a roadblock)..And the reason had to be that you were doing something illegal.  I don't like cops and I despise their union which bends over to shield bad cops in lieu of the people that they have sworn to protect.

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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 4:47:12 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Your understanding is at odds with the standard in the US today.  The definition of probable cause is 'Any observation, information, or set of circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime is being, has been, or is about to be committed'...

That is a much wider window than having to see an overt and illegal act in progress.

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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:15:49 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

serve
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

They were performing a road block where they stop every five cars (How in the fuck is this legal?)  They also stop anyone who they feel might be doing or involved in something illegal...At random...No five cars....just stop whomever they feel like.


It is perfectly legal because the USSC has ruled that randomly selected vehicle searches fall within their interpretation of the 'reasonable' search requirement of the 4th Amendment...and what you call  'might be doing or involved in something illegal', is more commonly called 'probable cause'... also held to fall within the scope of that same reasonableness standard

And as mentioned in other threads, when it comes to what is or isn't legal or reasonable, we can all have opinions, but only a handful of judges have any enforceable say-so in the matter..


The fisa court requires a name and a case presented prior to issuance of a search warrant.  there is no possible way traffic searches are constitutional.

The only other way they are allowed to search is if they can see drugs hanging out of your pocket or something along those lines.

otherwise uncionstitutiotnal


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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:19:35 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Your understanding is at odds with the standard in the US today.  The definition of probable cause is 'Any observation, information, or set of circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime is being, has been, or is about to be committed'...

That is a much wider window than having to see an overt and illegal act in progress.



yes as it stands this very second since the hayden took over the bush regime ran it through the courts and another one of their narrow interpreteations took another silce out of our liberties and anyone can make up anything about anyone to search them.  they circumvented the fisa court whos job it was to determine what was reasonable.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:19:36 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		Dream on, RO, dream on.

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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:21:21 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Dream on, RO, dream on.


thats right i thought it was a dream too until i seen the supreme court decision.  i was shocked and pissed and posted and like most of my posts it went unnoticed so do your own homework


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:25:46 PM   
domiguy


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Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Your understanding is at odds with the standard in the US today.  The definition of probable cause is 'Any observation, information, or set of circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime is being, has been, or is about to be committed'...

That is a much wider window than having to see an overt and illegal act in progress.



So by driving and wearing hip hop attire or driving white in a black neighborhood is enough for someone to believe that a crime is being, has been, or is about to be committed?

Anyone is capable of comitting a crime at any time....Let's just pull'em all over.

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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:29:51 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		LOL... the probable cause standard was developed in cases from the 1940s to early 1960s....
Was Bush in the Oval Office on your planet all those years?

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:33:03 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


So by driving and wearing hip hop attire or driving white in a black neighborhood is enough for someone to believe that a crime is being, has been, or is about to be committed?

Anyone is capable of comitting a crime at any time....Let's just pull'em all over.


Thanks for running away from a rational discourse on facts, and resorting to the childish dishonesty of faking something I never said. 


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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:34:42 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		"Hip Hop Attire?"
Does that mean those big, floppy pants?

I feel very "cynical" that George Bush won't enforce our immigration laws!
Almost 6 years now since 9/11 and that Mexican border is still like a seive!
Fuckin ASSHOLE!

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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:40:00 PM   
dragone


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Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline 		I thought this thread was created for LE people. It was pointed out to me by the Geekygirl. Can I contribute or no?

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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:46:11 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dragone

I thought this thread was created for LE people. It was pointed out to me by the Geekygirl. Can I contribute or no?


i just checked the tos and there is no rule that i can find says you cant post!


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to dragone)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:48:53 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

LOL... the probable cause standard was developed in cases from the 1940s to early 1960s....
Was Bush in the Oval Office on your planet all those years?


what are you talking about? care to elaborate on that?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 5:57:37 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		I've already spent multiple posts elaborating on the well established PC standard... You conflated the definition that I supplied with the name of  Bush... therefor, you are the one who needs to elaborate...and probably do some homework of your own as well.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 6:04:31 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

I've already spent multiple posts elaborating on the well established PC standard... You conflated the definition that I supplied with the name of  Bush... therefor, you are the one who needs to elaborate...and probably do some homework of your own as well.


well i should have said threads not posts.  had you put up threads about it i would have been on it.  then we can agree to disagree and i will point out that is afforded us by the constitution until just prior to general hayden being appointed head of the natinal security agenvcies.  it was his statement that probmpted my looking it up.

do you know what hayden said?  That and how do you figure i convoluted the definition



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/26/2007 6:05:49 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 6:11:45 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

..do you know what hayden said?


No, please enlighten us as to exactly what Hayden said regarding the specific topic I was discussing, i.e. local police following the parameters of probable cause as laid out in Spinelli, Aguilar, Mapp, and Terry..

(And please don't embarrass yourself by referring to that press conference where a reporter kept shouting inanities about the 4th Amendment, and then later falsely quoted Hayden as saying the untrue words that came out of the reporter's own mouth).

http://www.navyseals.com/community/articles/article.cfm?id=9554

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/26/2007 6:17:13 PM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 6:24:40 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

..do you know what hayden said?


No, please enlighten us as to exactly what Hayden said regarding the specific topic I was discussing, i.e. local police following the parameters of probable cause as laid out in Spinelli, Aguilar, Mapp, and Terry..


what you feel thse cases have to do with what i said. 


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 6:29:54 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know but having to deal with traffic cops makes me pretty effing cynical. Also, having to deal with the incompetence (and sexual come ons on several occassions) of my local police department gives me a headache. Sometimes I am afraid that if I did the same thing for the rest of my life even if I absolutely loved it, it would eventually make me turn cynical and bitter and angry. 

_____________________________


"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

(in reply to GeekyGirl)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 6:31:41 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

what you feel thse cases have to do with what i said. 
. 

I feel they have a lot to do with what  I  said... you claimed to disagree, so please provide references for bringing Bush into a discussion of decades old USSC rulings on local police behavior.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/26/2007 6:32:34 PM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 6:40:16 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      Back in '92, I picked up a book called The Outlaw's Bible.  All the loopholes spelled out, what the cops can and cannot do, with caselaw and Supreme Court cites.  By 2000, it was completely obsolete.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
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