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RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 6:45:57 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Back in '92, I picked up a book called The Outlaw's Bible. All the loopholes spelled out, what the cops can and cannot do, with caselaw and Supreme Court cites. By 2000, it was completely obsolete.

It is like a tennis match.. the courts draw a line, the cops try to bend it, the courts draw a finer line, new circumstances muddy the waters, the courts move the line, cops try to bend it... underneath it all is the notion of what is or isn't 'reasonable'...using the Founder's definition, not the media influenced modern one.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/26/2007 6:58:05 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 81

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 6:55:31 PM

mistoferin

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Joined: 10/27/2004
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FR~

Being Irish and Catholic and growing up in New York City, you could safely say that I have more than a few cops in my family...all the way from beat cops to detectives and Lieutenants, even a Captain. Their number one piece of advice to me if I should have to deal with an officer "Keep your mouth shut and tell them you want to talk to your attorney". Period. As they have told me....cops are trained liars. They are trained to act like your best friend and say whatever they think is necessary in order to win enough of your trust or intimidate you to get you to say something they can use to hang you. That's their job.

In the course of my work career I have had to work closely with many cops. I'd have to say that the advice given to me by my relatives was spot on.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 82

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 6:57:21 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

what you feel thse cases have to do with what i said.
.

I feel they have a lot to do with what I said... you claimed to disagree, so please provide references for bringing Bush into a discussion of decades old USSC rulings on local police behavior.

\

well i just did a quick run through my stuff and cannot immediately lay my hands on it. It is unconstitutional just like many other areas that have become an abortion. (pun intended)

i dont want to make a project out of this but when i run across it i will be happy to put it up.

Just because a statute or law was made or it was rationalized differently than inteded by the framers does not make it lawful according ot the constitution.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 83

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 7:02:43 PM

Alumbrado

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If the people that the Framers appointed in writing, to make that interpretation in their absence say something is reasonable, it is by definition lawful...even though it may well be unfair, irrational, or even reprehensible.
And whom did the Framers name as the final arbiters of all cases? Hmmmmmmm....

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 84

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 7:13:27 PM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

If the people that the Framers appointed in writing, to make that interpretation in their absence say something is reasonable, it is by definition lawful...even though it may well be unfair, irrational, or even reprehensible.
And whom did the Framers name as the final arbiters of all cases? Hmmmmmmm....

in the final analysis? "We the People"

the judicial does not have the constitutional authority to violate the constitution. Even if it is reasonable.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/26/2007 7:16:07 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 85

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 7:18:46 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

Nope.

The framers knew that the People were unsuited to be in charge, hence the insistence on 'reasonableness', not a trait associated with the common man at that time, but rather a hallmark of the educated and the intelligent few. (Their call, not mine).
Fear of the common man is also the reason behind the Framers giving power over all cases at law to the government, in very specific terms.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/26/2007 7:22:52 PM >

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 86

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 7:26:35 PM

mistoferin

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Joined: 10/27/2004
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Interesting argument....but what does any of it have to do with the OP?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 87

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 7:32:12 PM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Nope.

The framers knew that the People were unsuited to be in charge, hence the insistence on 'reasonableness', not a trait associated with the common man at that time, but rather a hallmark of the educated and the intelligent few. (Their call, not mine).
Fear of the common man is also the reason behind the Framers giving power over all cases at law to the government, in very specific terms.

here is some of boyles work this will have to do for now.

http://www.zianet.com/drbill/rant/trotc2.pdf

What you said is not correct, that is not to say that it was not part of their consideration there were other reasons

We have a representaive government, that does not imply that we the people are not in charge. To the contrary we are in charge. It not gauranteee howewver that our power will not be stolen by our appointed government employees

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/26/2007 8:04:17 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 88

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 10:41:11 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

'Representative' means to stand in the place of others...not neccessarily to do the bidding of others.
The people are in charge of hiring and firing, they are not typically allowed to micromanage the actual work product of their government...if that were the case, every member of congress, every judge, every soldier, every teacher, etc. would have to act as the whim of the majority of their constituents directed, changeable on a constant basis.

The battle between competing interests decided only by popular opinion would result in an Oprah-ocracy.

The Framers knew that 'Da Peeple', left to their own devices, would have restored a monarchy in a matter of moments, so they built in lumpenguards, by giving the government some autonomy...
A good idea on paper perhaps, but who could have forseen the cancerous mutation into what we have today?

Oh wait a minute.. didn't one of them say something about the people getting pretty much the government they deserve?

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/26/2007 10:46:46 PM >

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 89

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 10:56:15 PM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Nope.

The framers knew that the People were unsuited to be in charge, hence the insistence on 'reasonableness', not a trait associated with the common man at that time, but rather a hallmark of the educated and the intelligent few. (Their call, not mine).
Fear of the common man is also the reason behind the Framers giving power over all cases at law to the government, in very specific terms.

here is some of boyles work this will have to do for now.

http://www.zianet.com/drbill/rant/trotc2.pdf

What you said is not correct, that is not to say that it was not part of their consideration there were other reasons

We have a representaive government, that does not imply that we the people are not in charge. To the contrary we are in charge. It not gauranteee howewver that our power will not be stolen by our appointed government employees

I've got to go along with Alumbrado here. This is the irony missed by many Americans. The common colonial was less free under their new regime than under the British. I guess the belief that the colonists were subjugated by the British and liberated by the new regime just shows the power of propaganda, something the new regime was very good at.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 90

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 11:02:00 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Interesting argument....but what does any of it have to do with the OP?

The police are a quite visible reminder in everyday life that the goverment has power which the average citizen has to obey, like it or not.
Rather than punching out their politicians, people have developed a cognitive dissonance which allows them to continue to vote the same venal power addicts into office year after year, while blaming the police for what the voters hath wrought..

IMHO that is enough to make any cop cynical.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 91

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/26/2007 11:57:16 PM

dragone

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Joined: 5/29/2007
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RealOne; Alumbrado; I think you have gotten off track of the intent of the OP's thread; with your arguements, however, they are very interesting. Much moreso than the original intent of the thread by the OP. I tend to go along with Alumbrado on this, sorry Real One; but what you've said about 'We the people' being the ultimate say; as idealistic as it may be, we are not, never have been. I've read too, the Framers believed government and decision making could not be left to the common man, that the common man had neither the intellect to make decisions nor to govern themselves, being the primary reason for how they wrote the piece, and we have a representational government,..... And, to have the common man vote on every decision, would be chaos. What has happened to the American idealism, has erroded to the dictatorial system we now have. The Constitution, Bill of Rights are stumping blocks to the government and the Bush, republican agendas.

This recent Cheney challenge to Bush,.... the VP being not part of the Executive Branch, the way the wording reads, leaves some doubt as to either yea or nay. I feel this debate will end up, Cheney winning, and the VP office will be reconized as not being part of the Executive branch, thus not subject to the rule as set in the Constitution.

I futher speculate, that this will pave the way for Arnold to be the VP, and thus will necessitate changing the constitution, to allow the VP to take over the presidency should some unfortunate occurance make the president incapable of continuing his/her office.

So, with a look to the future, this representational government does not answer to the voice of the people; and with observations Alumbrado cites, it never had the voice of the people in consideration at inception. It is the elite rich who rule, always was, always will be.

As the police are concerned, Mistoferin has said it very accurately. What your constituational rights are, matters little to none, when the police have you. If you notice, any time, officers have pulled anyone over, have the person standing in front of the car, handcuffed or not...no citizen will ever approach, or gather to watch the goings on; every one passing by with only slightly glance in the direction, if that.

If, there is a rukus, and you gather, just to observe, immediately you are told to leave the area, if you refuse....you are arrested. Shout your rights have been violated, and off you go. The best approach is.....'yes sir',.... and be heavy on the sir. Now, Geekgirl, would assume I'm against cops; well, I'm not, but a few rotten apples do in fact spoil the entire barrel. That is the way it is. I have seen some real cop horror scenes; and the good ones, well, there are good ones, I believe.

Well, that's my two cents worth.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 92

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/27/2007 12:35:46 AM

Pandamonum

Posts: 78
Joined: 6/11/2007
Status: offline

I did not catch the criminal background check thread and, frankly, I'm too lazy to go find it. These are my own personal ramblings, it is not my intention to offend you.

Depending on what you do and where you are at, LE deals with life shifting from crisis to crisis. Money, vehicles, lockdowns because of name your disease. To top it off, if it ain't court ordered it ain't happening. How good is your court reporter? I have seen people that don't get good food, refused medical care and the females have been denied access to the legal library. There are instances of an inmate being handcufffed and beaten. Don't expect people to walk into a shower and to be treated like animals to respond in a civil matter. By the same token, the us vs. them mentality is well deserved on both sides. There are those that believe that they are above the law, and the difference between either side is real sketchy. In fact, it has been noted that the only difference between a cop and a criminal is a badge. I have watched the lines start buzzing between departments on any specific group that walks in for visiting etc. and the rumors spread. I've sat in DH and watched off the wall comments been made on court room attire.

Faced with the option of this career I decided it was in my best interest that I deal with people on a case by case basis. I have read a small study limited and out of Chicago of what precisely does a female need to be successful on the outside. That is the direction that I want to go. I don't want to focus anymore on a failing system. I want to focus on what does work.

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

Post #: 93

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/27/2007 6:21:25 AM

spankmepink11

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Heres the thing GeekyGirl, while everyone has made valid points, and others have pointed out LE is not the only profession where folks can become burned out and jaded about the world at large. You make a blanketing statement by saying that you feel you can't trust anyone other than LE people and that the population at large is filled with bad people. Yet you object strongly to anyone making blanket statements against LEOs.   Get the irony?

As in any profession there are good and bad people. I've seen police officers bend over back wards to be fair and try to avoid needlessly taking someone to jail, I've also seen those who are on a power trip and a badge is the best way live that power trip.

When my middle son was 15 he was spending the night at a friends, roughly 4 blocks away, they had come over to my house to get a movie ...(it was american pie) on the way back they were stopped by the police.   It was 10:15 and "curfew" was 10 pm for kids under 16. The officers separated them, and then told them each a trumped up story about finding marijuana, and each officer told the other boy that his friend had confessed that it was theirs. Of course they didn't fall for it because they knew it wasn't true.
End point i had to retrieve my child from the police station and they confiscated the movie because it was rated R and these boys were only 15.   This did not cause me to think that all LE officers are bad, dirty etc...but...there are plenty of indications and instances that prove that there are more than a few.

I won't even bother commenting on the lack of standards they maintain once they've made the force.

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

Post #: 94

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/27/2007 7:59:36 AM

dragone

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Hello, As Geekygirl reminded me, with my first post, this is a thread for LE officers, and by inference, civilian input is not wanted, nor needed. Well, be that as it may,.... I have seen the same as you, and Pandamonum. Accordingly, if the posts do not contain glowing prase of the LE people, then, you are admonished, that this is for LE only.

Geekygirl, negates all of her so-called 'trauma' when she states, she loves her job, and plans to put in the 20 some odd years to retirement in the very same job, that promted her alledged trauma..

Spankmepink, is absolutely right on target.

And I have friends who are in LE, so there.

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 95

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/27/2007 10:24:05 AM

DarkDreams123

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Joined: 1/25/2007
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Greetings GeekyGirl,

I know that I am not in Law Enforcement, so that my comments and opinions might not carry much weight with you, but here goes anyway.

I would like to reinforce what Stephann has recommended to you. It isn't the particulars of what he has recommended (getting involved with children) but the concept.

In your post (and subsequent replies), you made mention of the fact that most of your social interactions are only with other people in Law Enforcement. You believe that you are becoming cynical and perhaps have a skewed view of the world because of this. You also mention that you believe that you had a very sheltered childhood in that you grew up in a family where your parents were in Law Enforcement and were very strict with you.

I think you need to develop some kind of social interaction that is outside of your Law Enforcement circle. Do you like to sing or play an instrument? You could join a community choir or orchestra. If you aren't interested in music, find something else.

At 24, you are still young and more open to new experiences. Consider this: as you get older you will tend to become more "set in your ways".

You are smart enough to recognize that there is a problem. The solution is really up to you. Now is the time.

And contrary to much of the negative responses you have been getting here (all unsolicited, by the way, and completely off topic), I would like to thank you and all other Law Enforcement personnel for the tough and thankless job you do in keeping our society safe.

Good luck,

-DarkDreams

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

Post #: 96

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/27/2007 11:43:47 AM

philosophy

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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

The point of this thread was only to ask if others in Law enforcement felt their world view differed substantially from that of civilians (I would assume a similiar thing happens to military folks.)

.....what about brothers of police officers? i have watched my brother become progressively less and less capable of empathy since he became an officer. Without going into details he has become less effective as a police officer because of it. If police officers cease to see themselves as part of the community they serve then how can they possibly serve those communities?

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

Post #: 97

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/27/2007 1:54:06 PM

dragone

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Good question; I'd like to say; I have a very good friend, who served as a guard in one of the most toughest correctional facilities in the country; and he, piror to taking this job, was a rather well adjusted to the normal standards of our society. After less than a year, his demeanour began a transformational decline; so much so, that eventually he was at the divorce attorney's door. His friends started to drift away, and in short, he changed dramatically in his views of society.

He quit his job, and years later, the effect is still upon him, but not so servere. He has told me, the jailers, guards, associate only with each other, mostly all have divorced, some remarried a number of times, and mostly all, have the very same deameanor as the criminals they guard and house. In short, one could not tell any difference. He said, he did not want to become what he saw in the others, and indeed, one's environment, and associates do shape one's perspectives.

So Geekygirl, enjoy your retirement, as I'm sure you will.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 98

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/27/2007 3:37:35 PM

NeedToUseYou

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From: None of your business
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Responding to the initial OP post....

LOL, poor girl you just are to innocent still, and haven't realized everyone is an asshole unless they have a reason not to be.

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

Post #: 99

RE: Law Enforcement and Cynicism - 6/27/2007 3:40:13 PM

GeekyGirl

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DarkDreams, thank you very much. I think one reason I get offended at the negativity I see here is because I'm made a conscious choice to risk my life every day and people don't seem to appreciate that...just two weeks ago, my dad narrowly dodged bullets while trying to apprehend a dangerous criminal...he could have DIED and yet people will still badmouth him for being a cop. He risked his life...people should appreciate that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

The point of this thread was only to ask if others in Law enforcement felt their world view differed substantially from that of civilians (I would assume a similiar thing happens to military folks.)

.....what about brothers of police officers? i have watched my brother become progressively less and less capable of empathy since he became an officer. Without going into details he has become less effective as a police officer because of it. If police officers cease to see themselves as part of the community they serve then how can they possibly serve those communities?

Families of police officers would probably have good input too....

Honestly, I was never an empathic person even before I got involved in LE. But I also am NOT a police officer and do NOT serve the public, therefore many of these diatribes don't strictly apply.

Being a jailer and being a cop are both LE positions...but they have very different goals and purposes! I have absolutely nothing to do with the civilian public. I don't even come in contact with them through my job. I am only in contact with accused offenders while they are confined.

Being too empathic towards prisoners gets a lot of officers fired when they are convinced to bring contraband to the jail or worse yet have sex with inmates.

I think being a little less empathic is the safe route.

_____________________________

"It's nothing that I understand, but when in your arms you have complete power over me. So be gentle if you please, 'cause your hands are in my hair, but my heart is in your teeth and it makes me want to make you near me always."

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 100

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