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forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 7:36:05 AM

mmsprecious

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Joined: 12/6/2006
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i am hoping to get other opinions on this. the general background is that i require medication daily for my mood/anxiety. my Master KNOWS when i have missed taking them and has now made it a Master order that i take them every day.
we were on vacation last week and coming home, i fell off my routine and forgot them several days which affected my mood in a negative way. i have been served my punishment and understand i had disobeyed but i have several questions that came up because of it. of course my Master and i talked them over, i am just seeking others viewpoints.
so...is "forgetting" the same as a deliberate choice to disobey? Master chose my punishment carefully - are there levels of punishment or are all infractions treated the same? do you consider disobeying the route to being released or how to you chose wether or not you continue to train a particular slave?

Master Mike's precious

Post #: 1

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 7:47:38 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mmsprecious
so...is "forgetting" the same as a deliberate choice to disobey? Master chose my punishment carefully - are there levels of punishment or are all infractions treated the same? do you consider disobeying the route to being released or how to you chose wether or not you continue to train a particular slave?

In our relationship, forgetting to follow a direct instruction is disobedience. However, it is not willful disobedience. Willful disobedience will remove my consent to be his slave and it will end the M/s relationship.

There would come a point in my relationship where consistent forgetfullness would border on willful disobedience. If I know I have problems remembering to do things and I don't take steps to help myself to remember and I keep forgetting, then he is going to be extremely pissed. It stops being a simple mistake and becomes a repeated pattern of behavior that is unacceptable.

He does not punish, so there are no different levels.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to mmsprecious)

Post #: 2

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 7:51:11 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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Invest in a pill box.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to mmsprecious)

Post #: 3

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 7:53:50 AM

julietsierra

Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmsprecious
so...is "forgetting" the same as a deliberate choice to disobey? Master chose my punishment carefully - are there levels of punishment or are all infractions treated the same? do you consider disobeying the route to being released or how to you chose wether or not you continue to train a particular slave?

In our relationship, forgetting to follow a direct instruction is disobedience. However, it is not willful disobedience. Willful disobedience will remove my consent to be his slave and it will end the M/s relationship.

There would come a point in my relationship where consistent forgetfullness would border on willful disobedience. If I know I have problems remembering to do things and I don't take steps to help myself to remember and I keep forgetting, then he is going to be extremely pissed. It stops being a simple mistake and becomes a repeated pattern of behavior that is unacceptable.

He does not punish, so there are no different levels.

Knight's Kyra

Same here. No punishment. Just the knowledge that disobedience is disobedience is disobedience. Intentionally being disobedience is me choosing not to engage in D/s with him and so ends the relationship. However, "forgetting" is not an acceptable excuse either.

The problem my Master has with "forgetting" - especially when it comes in the form of forgetting important medication - especially since it was his order - is that the order to not miss is not just an order to take the meds. It's an order to contemplate and USE ways in which you will help yourself remember.

Claims of forgetting mean that you've not done the other part of this order - the part that says you're responsible for your own health and that all your Master was doing was giving you an avenue/incentive to help you along. In forgetting, you were choosing not to take care of yourself - regardless of the reason - because you didn't do the work ahead of time to ensure that you could follow your Master's instructions.

Not a blame thing on my part, just presenting a different way of looking at "forgetting."

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 6/23/2007 7:57:04 AM >

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 4

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 8:15:51 AM

SirMIkeSD

Posts: 613
Joined: 3/16/2007
From: San Diego, Ca
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You where given an order, there are tools avaiable to help you ensure you meet this order; pill box, alarm on watch (if you have one), etc, etc, etc. You make the choice not to use these or request assistance from your Master in finding a good tool for you since you know you have a problem in this area. So yes it was disobeying.

Now that the basic question is out of the way, you did not state if your Master is aware that taking these pills correctly is a problem for you. Has your Master told you in the past that you need to do a better job of this? Did your Master suggest ways to help you remember, did you use them if he did? These questions would have an impact on the level of punishment, but not on the simple fact that you did disobey.

Mike

(in reply to julietsierra)

Post #: 5

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 8:27:54 AM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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No, I don't think forgetting is the same thing as disobeying. But how in the world can you "forget" several days in a row to take a medicine that you know you have to take daily? That doesn't sound like "forgetting" to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmsprecious

i am hoping to get other opinions on this. the general background is that i require medication daily for my mood/anxiety. my Master KNOWS when i have missed taking them and has now made it a Master order that i take them every day.
we were on vacation last week and coming home, i fell off my routine and forgot them several days which affected my mood in a negative way.

[snip]

so...is "forgetting" the same as a deliberate choice to disobey?

(in reply to mmsprecious)

Post #: 6

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 8:40:03 AM

MstrssPassion

Posts: 2444
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From: West Palm Beach, FL
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SirMike nailed it...

As a master we can't just give verbal instruction & expect that is the extent of our responsibility of ensuring that our orders are carried out.

You obviously have a problem with staying on track. A verbal command is not going to be the cure for this. Since you have not been able to correct this on your own & you need to come up with a routine that you cannot deviate from. This is where he will need to step up & help you come up with a method. Tools are needed in this case. The pill box is a great idea.

Do you see your master daily? How many of the meds do you take once a day & how many can be taken at the same time? Maybe you could develop a ritual where you take your medication in his presence prior to carrying out something that is pleasing for him. This would be something you would come to look forward to daily & also offer him a chance to make sure you are taking your meds.

Rituals are great tools in enforcing a mindset & maintaining a D/s dynamic within a relationship... why not look for ways to incorporate ritual with your medication regimen so that it becomes an act that is looked forward to on a daily basis.

Good luck

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 6/23/2007 8:41:38 AM >

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MstrssPassion

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Post #: 7

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 9:04:11 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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I'm with LaM and Mike here.

Forgetting, to me, isn't deliberate disobedience. Deliberate disobedience would equate with defiance for me. "No, I refuse." Such a statement would severely test my slaves ability to remain in my collar; it wouldn't be pretty. The wrath of hell would be preferable, I suspect.

On the other hand, not choosing to use an alarm, write sticky notes, use a box, write in big letters on the mirror "TAKE PILLS" or other such preventative measures equates with choosing not to take an instruction seriously. If I tell my slave "take your pills regularly, on time, every day" and it's not done, it's still disobedience. In this case, it's a major infraction; it negatively affects our relationship and risks the health of my property.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 8

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 9:28:09 AM

grlneedstolearn

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My Dom has the same rule that i can not forget my cell phone when i leave for work in the morning. Yes i've forgotten it a couple times, and yes there has been punishment. But our solution is that i can use my friend's cell when i forget mine. i don't do this on purpose in no way, but yes everyone can be forgetful from time to time.

(in reply to mmsprecious)

Post #: 9

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 9:46:09 AM

bandit25

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Joined: 6/18/2005
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I have mixed feeling about this. Mornings are very hectic here and sometimes I forget stuff. I try not to, but I've got to get out at a certain time or I'll be late for work. I drop my UM off at school and she is pokey. It's constant...let's go, let's go. It's hard to remember everything. I don't know that there is cause for punishment.

(in reply to grlneedstolearn)

Post #: 10

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 9:55:07 AM

slaveluci

Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmsprecious
so...is "forgetting" the same as a deliberate choice to disobey?

As others have said, it is not unless and until it begins to be a regular habit and you're not doing anything to help you to remember. I have bad short term memory so post-it notes are my best friends

. At one point, Master even gave me one of those mini cassette players so I could record reminders into it. Is it ironic that I would forget to bring it along?

Seriously....as long as forgetting isn't habitual, Master doesn't see it as deliberate disobedience.

quote:

are there levels of punishment or are all infractions treated the same?

I don't really know as I've only been punished a couple times during our 14 month relationship. It was very suited to the infraction(s) and was not physical or sexualized in any manner. Master doesn't like the idea of punishment but prefers to teach me how to not repeat the same mistakes again. Discipline is much preferable to punishment.

quote:

do you consider disobeying the route to being released

No way. When I became Master's slave, I became His property that He will own till death. Disobeying isn't going to negate His ownership of me. If that were the case and I wanted to be freed, I'd just keep disobeying until I got my way. Who's really in charge in a situation like that?

Defiance (which is NOT going to happen anyway) would simply bring discipline, correction, punishment - whatever it takes to eliminate it so that I could continue being the slave He expects me to always be..........slave luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to mmsprecious)

Post #: 11

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 10:05:59 AM

slaveish

Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mmsprecious

so...is "forgetting" the same as a deliberate choice to disobey? Master chose my punishment carefully - are there levels of punishment or are all infractions treated the same? do you consider disobeying the route to being released or how to you chose wether or not you continue to train a particular slave?

Ok. So ... let's say you "forgot" the speed limit was 65. You were doing 95. Would it be effective to say "Officer, I just forgot"?

Something as important and as daily as medication should not be something you forget, especially since you know it is important to your Master. Forgetting is not an excuse (believe me, I wish it were - I have a bad memory).

However Master decides to punish me is up to him. We don't have set "levels" of punishment - it's whatever he thinks is justified.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to mmsprecious)

Post #: 12

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 10:09:41 AM

sweetnurseBBW

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Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
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I think your Master is trying to make a point with you how important your meds are. Sometimes using the "I forgot" thing is an excuse and the submissive just chose not to do the task. This is willful disobedience and would end our relationship if I willfully disobeyed. Still forgetting to do something is an infraction in our dynamic and I would be punished.

_____________________________

Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to mmsprecious)

Post #: 13

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 10:18:01 AM

angelic

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Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

i see honest forgetfulness as not being deliberate. However, if i 'conveniently' forget to do something, i.e. i remembered i was supposed to and just chose not to, that is deliberate and i would ask myself what was missing from the relationship. That is different to me than 'i normally take my meds at 6 am and on vacation we do not wake until 9 and then it is a rush to go do the next fun thing" is not deliberate.. your schedule is off. i would question any punishment. Particularly, if once home, the routine fell back into place and i had no problem remembering the meds.

~edited because the 'at' sign turned into astericks~

< Message edited by angelic -- 6/23/2007 10:19:04 AM >

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(in reply to mmsprecious)

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RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 10:25:03 AM

maybemaybenot

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Do you have a cell phone? If so, set the alarms for times you need to take your meds.
Change the screen saver on your computer to make a scrolling " Don't forget to take my meds"
Put a sticky on your bathroom mirror.
Put a sticky on your car dashboard.
Hang your pill bottle on the fridge.

There are hundreds of ways to make reminders to yourself if you have trouble remembering to take your meds. Every one forgets, I do not call that disobedience. But consistant, repeated forgetting of the same * rule* is at least carelessness and disregard for your Masters orders. And, IMO, taking one's medication should not need to be an * order*, it should be your priority to take care of yourself for him. But in your case it is, and that is fine. Now it is your job to figure out how to carry out those orders or if you are unable to manage your own medications ask him for direction in finding a solution. He's not asking you to come up with a new theory of relativity, he's asking/ordering you to take your meds. It really isn't complicated.
I suspect, because we are all human, that you will forget your meds on a rare occasion or two, even with diligent measures to insure you take them. It happens. But I have trouble * swallowing* that one can forget to take their meds for days on end. At some point you must have seen your pill bottle or felt yourself becoming moody etc and chose not to take them.

As for are all infractions treated the same way? I would think not, as each Dominant has his or her own style. That is a question you should ask your Master to see what his particular brand of discipline is.

quote:

do you consider disobeying the route to being released or how to you chose wether or not you continue to train a particular slave?

Yes, in my experience disobedience is a direct route to dismissal.

I hate the word train and do not consider myself as having ever been * trained *, but in my relationships, the expectations or
* rules * < as some may call it > were made very clear to me during the dating phase. It was my choice to accept the expectations, figure out if I were able to live up to the expectations and proceed from there. If I faltered or was struggling, it was my responsibilty to ask for assistance in living up to my end of the agreement. The choice was always mine, if I chose not to be an active participant in the relationship and not find ways or ask for help if I was struggling, I am sure he would have chosen not to continue the relationship.

mbmbn

_____________________________

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to mmsprecious)

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RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 10:34:30 AM

slaverosebeauty

Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mmsprecious
so...is "forgetting" the same as a deliberate choice to disobey?

It depends on what the infraction is. Was it a deliberate 'forgetting' or was it one of those, 'we had so much going on' that you forgot? I forgot over a week ago to not go :P to MJ on the phone, it was a quick slip, I could almost see the look on His face, one minor slip up in weeks, that's really good, considering that I use to do that all the time to Him on IM and on the phone; He laughed after it happened.

quote:

Master chose my punishment carefully - are there levels of punishment or are all infractions treated the same?

I think their are levels of punishment, the punishment needs to 'fit the crime' so to speak. If you left the lid off the tube of toothpaste and thats a rule to always put it back on, then being bullwhipped would be extreame, maybe toothepaste on your clit or ass would be more reasonable. That sorta thing.

quote:

do you consider disobeying the route to being released or how to you chose wether or not you continue to train a particular slave?

If a minor offense is grounds for being released then something is terribly wrong. NO ONE is perfect, we all forget things at times, I do not suscribe to that bs of 'Master is always right;' no one is right all the time. Its not possible.

Not taking your meds is evidently something that can be easily remidied to NOT forget, get a cell phone or a watch with an alarm to make sure you take your meds on time. Simple solution. I do that with my vitamins, I have to take them every 12 hours, my cell goes off every 12 hours to remind me. Easy fix.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to mmsprecious)

Post #: 16

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 10:42:33 AM

atendersoul

Posts: 167
Joined: 10/20/2006
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Master watches this one's health closely as well as her well being....
when it comes to meds, specially daily ones.....this one would think that this one doing the posting would respect her One is doing what is required for her own health.....

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)

Post #: 17

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 10:46:08 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmsprecious
so...is "forgetting" the same as a deliberate choice to disobey? Master chose my punishment carefully - are there levels of punishment or are all infractions treated the same? do you consider disobeying the route to being released or how to you chose wether or not you continue to train a particular slave?

In our relationship, forgetting to follow a direct instruction is disobedience. However, it is not willful disobedience. Willful disobedience will remove my consent to be his slave and it will end the M/s relationship.

There would come a point in my relationship where consistent forgetfullness would border on willful disobedience. If I know I have problems remembering to do things and I don't take steps to help myself to remember and I keep forgetting, then he is going to be extremely pissed. It stops being a simple mistake and becomes a repeated pattern of behavior that is unacceptable.

He does not punish, so there are no different levels.

Knight's Kyra

That hits the nail on the head, kyra.

"Forgetting" for several days....... especially something he has told you that is important, and that you know is important. Not good.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 18

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 10:51:28 AM

Elorin

Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Last time M and I had this conversation, I basically stated that punishing me for forgetting to take my meds was the same as punishing me for having ADD. He agreed, and stated that he had no intentions of punishing me for having ADD.

He has, however, helped me to develop routines and practices which make it much easier to remember and take my meds daily.

For the record, I take meds daily for bipolar and anxiety disorder.

~E

_____________________________

'cause when i look down /i just miss all the good stuff / when i look up / i just trip over things

(in reply to mmsprecious)

Post #: 19

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 11:09:35 AM

ownedgirlie

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Forgetting an order is disobeying but not willfully disobeying, as has been mentioned here. Forgetting once would result in something like, "Hmm, ok." Forgetting twice would result in some questions being asked as to why I forgot and what I was planning on doing to remember. Forgetting more than that would result in a consequence to teach me self discipline and focus, and to ensure I would not forget again. If there is a pattern of forgetting to obey instructions, then clearly there is a focus issue, revealing my lack of focusing on serving him. That will need to be corrected if I wish to continue serving him.

As to your question of whether or not he wishes to continue training someone - it's mostly about the slave's attitude and desire. If she (he) is showing a genuine desire and effort to focus on him, and to continue to improve and work for him, he will give her every opportunity in the world to succeed (this does not mean there are not consequences for errors). In Off Topics, KoM began a great thread on words vs. actions. If a slave Master is training professes a deep desire to serve but does little to show it by her conduct (obeying, consistent lack of focus, mouthing off, etc.), she will most certainly begin her path to the exit door.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 6/23/2007 11:11:42 AM >

(in reply to mmsprecious)

Post #: 20

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