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RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 9:25:05 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

mmmmmm well.. Alandra's been with me coming on 20 years and she has never Wilfully Disobeyed.. Guess she doesn't like the consequence.


Amazing indeed.  Either the slaves that I have owned aren't nearly as compliant as yours, or I'm somehow a bigger bastard than you will ever be.

quote:

I would say they are not much of a Master.  


Yeah, that's usually the root cause of not owning much of a slave.  You may not have the slave you want, but you probably have the slave you deserve.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/23/2007 9:46:45 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
For my owner it depends on the level of disobedience.  There have been things that we've moved towards slowly over time with me perhaps being a bit more difficult (this is on reflection after the fact) than I shouldn't have been but I don't think for him any act of disobedience, no matter how small, immediately warrants a complete negation of ownership.  I think what would warrant release/negation of ownership is intensely personal to him and I'm not even sure I know all of the situations that would cause it - although they'd all start with willfully doing something he didn't want me to do.


Hi Wildfluers,

I wanted to comment on the bolded part because I'm afriad I gave the wrong impression in my post which you responded to.  He does not expect perfection from me and knows there may be moments of disobedience.  Disobedience does not mean hit the door, just like that.  Hopefully that's not how my post came across.  There is only one act of disobedience he has told me will release me instantly, and that has been made clear to me.  I agree with you - such reasons are personal to him.  Other than what he has made me aware of, so far I have always had an opportunity to correct myself. 

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 12:02:04 AM   
damia


Posts: 190
Joined: 10/26/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No, I don't think forgetting is the same thing as disobeying.  But how in the world can you "forget" several days in a row to take a medicine that you know you have to take daily?  That doesn't sound like "forgetting" to me.


I was on antibiotics for two weeks that I was supposed to take twice daily. It's not hard to forget...I did many times, and would have skipped many times if my pup hadn't asked me 'Have you taken your pill yet?' and then handed it to me. I get wrapped up in what I'm doing, and forget. On vacation...that's even easier, because you get wrapped up even more in what you're doing...enjoying your vacation.

To answer the OP, I don't consider forgetting on the same level as willful disobeying. Willful disobeying means it's time to sit down and discuss whether the submissive even wants the relationship, and if they do, -why- they chose to disobey, and then discuss an appropriate punishment. Forgetting means it's time to sit down and discuss how to fix it so that it's easier to remember (as another suggested, an alarm on your watch or a pillbox, or other possibilities would include being required to do something for Him at the time that you are supposed to take your pill, perhaps requiring you to give him a short shoulder massage and then grab your pill afterwards....that way you remember to do something for your Master, then do something for your health...easier to remember two things than just one, makes it doubly important).

Sit down and talk to him about options of helping you remember to take them daily.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 7:12:16 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Hi Wildfluers,

I wanted to comment on the bolded part because I'm afriad I gave the wrong impression in my post which you responded to.  He does not expect perfection from me and knows there may be moments of disobedience.  Disobedience does not mean hit the door, just like that.  Hopefully that's not how my post came across.  There is only one act of disobedience he has told me will release me instantly, and that has been made clear to me.  I agree with you - such reasons are personal to him.  Other than what he has made me aware of, so far I have always had an opportunity to correct myself. 


I wasn't sure about that, so I'm glad you clarified on that point!

C~


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 9:13:22 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
I wasn't sure about that, so I'm glad you clarified on that point!

C~



Good!  Trust me, if that were the case I'd have been gone a lonnnnnnng time ago!!!

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 10:42:11 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I don't feel that forgetting is deliberate disobedience, but I do see it as a loss of mindful service and a display that my order of "keep yourself fit for service" isn't being heeded. Get a watch with an alarm or set an alarm on your phone/palm pilot. You already know that you forget...so be proactive about reminding yourself.

Master Fire


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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 11:00:44 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		That's still not the same thing.  It's easy to forget to take antibiotics because it's not part of your normal routine.  "Oh, shit, I forgot I have to take that fucking antibiotic."  But how do you "forget" to take a mood-stabilizer that you know you have to take every day?  That's like forgetting to brush your teeth.  OK, one time, I can see that.  But several days in a row?  There's something wrong there.  That sounds like "accidentally on purpose" to me.

I personally wouldn't be interested in a sub who can't even be relied on to take her daily medication without being monitored.  If I wanted a dog I'd go to the shelter and pick out a dog.

quote:

ORIGINAL: damia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No, I don't think forgetting is the same thing as disobeying.  But how in the world can you "forget" several days in a row to take a medicine that you know you have to take daily?  That doesn't sound like "forgetting" to me.


I was on antibiotics for two weeks that I was supposed to take twice daily. It's not hard to forget...I did many times, and would have skipped many times if my pup hadn't asked me 'Have you taken your pill yet?' and then handed it to me. I get wrapped up in what I'm doing, and forget. On vacation...that's even easier, because you get wrapped up even more in what you're doing...enjoying your vacation.

(in reply to damia)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 11:30:35 AM   
MistressNoName


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Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That's still not the same thing. It's easy to forget to take antibiotics because it's not part of your normal routine. "Oh, shit, I forgot I have to take that fucking antibiotic." But how do you "forget" to take a mood-stabilizer that you know you have to take every day? That's like forgetting to brush your teeth. OK, one time, I can see that. But several days in a row? There's something wrong there. That sounds like "accidentally on purpose" to me.

I personally wouldn't be interested in a sub who can't even be relied on to take her daily medication without being monitored. If I wanted a dog I'd go to the shelter and pick out a dog.

quote:

ORIGINAL: damia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No, I don't think forgetting is the same thing as disobeying. But how in the world can you "forget" several days in a row to take a medicine that you know you have to take daily? That doesn't sound like "forgetting" to me.


I was on antibiotics for two weeks that I was supposed to take twice daily. It's not hard to forget...I did many times, and would have skipped many times if my pup hadn't asked me 'Have you taken your pill yet?' and then handed it to me. I get wrapped up in what I'm doing, and forget. On vacation...that's even easier, because you get wrapped up even more in what you're doing...enjoying your vacation.



Because "forgetting" is a relative term when you are dealing with the human psyche. This whole thread is about whether forgetting is equal to disobedience. And then others have brought up the issue of willful disobedience vs...? Frankly, I don't see disobedience as being anything other than willfully refusing to do a thing. ie: Master: "slave, do this." slave: "no." That's just disobedience to me. Plain and simple. Now, the way I understand forgetfulness is in a couple of ways. 1) some people have very real and very serious memory loss which makes it very difficult and in some cases impossible to remember what most people consider easy things to recall, like taking a pill or going to the grocery for bread and milk. Sometimes this memory loss is due to a physical trauma or a developmental disability. 2) some people experience a type of memory loss that is purely psychological in nature...and here is where things start getting a little tricky. Forgetfulness is usually in service of something. Ie, many people with bipolar disorder talk about forgetting to take their meds, esp when they are in a manic state because, when they examine the behavior, they find they like the feeling of euphoria and don't want to be brought down to more "stable" state. Sometimes people with depression also forget to take mood stabilizing drugs...I have had this experience myself...when I've examined my own forgetfulness I've discovered my fear of "feeling normal." Additionally, there is also the denial factor...not being able to accept and fully believe that one really does need to take this little pill ALL the time in order to remain stable ALL the time. So in these cases the forgetfulness serves as a defense in service of feeling euphoria, as a safeguard against fear, as a way of removing one from one's denial. Many times what one knows on a logical level can be completely undone on an emotional/psychological level. We are human and our behaviors are not always subject to logical reasoning.

So, yes, it is very possible to forget to take a pill for several days even though you know that you need to take it everyday in order to stay well. That's why, in my opinion, forgetfulness is NOT equal to disobedience in any way, shape or form. And Masters who are dealing with a sub/slave with forgetfulness issues need to be able to properly assess the situation...as I've said before.


MNN

< Message edited by MistressNoName -- 6/24/2007 11:36:35 AM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 11:39:49 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I'm sure this opinion will be unpopular too, but someone with that kind of self-inflicted memory loss isn't ready to serve in a d/s relationship.  If you can't remember to take a pill that you need every day, whether it's because you have psychological memory loss, or you're in denial, or you're afraid of feeling normal, or any of the other causes and supposed mitigating factors you've mentioned, then you need to straighten all that out before you're ready to get involved in someone else's life.  There was a thread about that recently, and I said the same thing there: someone who has uncontrolled mental or emotional problems is in no condition for a relationship.

I certainly agree with you that disobedience means wilfull disobedience, but that doesn't mean you can just run under the cover of "Oh, I forgot."  If you continually forget something that you can't forget, there's a defect that has to be addressed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNoName

some people experience a type of memory loss that is purely psychological in nature...and here is where things start getting a little tricky. Forgetfulness is usually in service of something. Ie, many people with bipolar disorder talk about forgetting to take their meds, esp when they are in a manic state because, when they examine the behavior, they find they like the feeling of euphoria and don't want to be brought down to more "stable" state. Sometimes people with depression also forget to take mood stabilizing drugs...I have had this experience myself...when I've examined my own forgetfulness I've discovered my fear of "feeling normal." Additionally, there is also the denial factor...not being able to accept and fully believe that one really does need to take this little pill ALL the time in order to remain stable ALL the time. So in these cases the forgetfulness serves as a defense in service of feeling euphoria, as a safeguard against fear, as a way of removing one from one's denial. Many times what one knows on a logical level can be completely undone on an emotional/psychological level. We are human and our behaviors are not always subject to logical reasoning.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/24/2007 11:41:33 AM >

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RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 12:19:01 PM   
kyraofMists


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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNoName
And then others have brought up the issue of willful disobedience vs...? Frankly, I don't see disobedience as being anything other than willfully refusing to do a thing. ie: Master: "slave, do this." slave: "no." That's just disobedience to me. Plain and simple.


From our perspective, disobedience is not carrying out a direct order.  To willfully disobey would be as you describe; I understand the order, know what I have to do, have the opportunity to do it, and I am capable of doing it but I refuse to do it.  My motivation is to defy him in willful disobedience.

I can neglect to carry out an order because I either forget, do not understand or something happens during the day that prevents me from fulfilling his will.  I did not refuse to do his will, but other things prevented it from happening.  My motivation was not to defy him even though I did not obey.

It is the motivation for the disobedience that will determine whether it is willful or just out of neglect.  Motivation for behaviors is critical for our family.  Two people can behave in the exact same way and their motivation for that behavior can be completely different. 

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to MistressNoName)
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RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 1:01:56 PM   
MistressNoName


Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, I'm sure this opinion will be unpopular too, but someone with that kind of self-inflicted memory loss isn't ready to serve in a d/s relationship. If you can't remember to take a pill that you need every day, whether it's because you have psychological memory loss, or you're in denial, or you're afraid of feeling normal, or any of the other causes and supposed mitigating factors you've mentioned, then you need to straighten all that out before you're ready to get involved in someone else's life. There was a thread about that recently, and I said the same thing there: someone who has uncontrolled mental or emotional problems is in no condition for a relationship.

I certainly agree with you that disobedience means wilfull disobedience, but that doesn't mean you can just run under the cover of "Oh, I forgot." If you continually forget something that you can't forget, there's a defect that has to be addressed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNoName

some people experience a type of memory loss that is purely psychological in nature...and here is where things start getting a little tricky. Forgetfulness is usually in service of something. Ie, many people with bipolar disorder talk about forgetting to take their meds, esp when they are in a manic state because, when they examine the behavior, they find they like the feeling of euphoria and don't want to be brought down to more "stable" state. Sometimes people with depression also forget to take mood stabilizing drugs...I have had this experience myself...when I've examined my own forgetfulness I've discovered my fear of "feeling normal." Additionally, there is also the denial factor...not being able to accept and fully believe that one really does need to take this little pill ALL the time in order to remain stable ALL the time. So in these cases the forgetfulness serves as a defense in service of feeling euphoria, as a safeguard against fear, as a way of removing one from one's denial. Many times what one knows on a logical level can be completely undone on an emotional/psychological level. We are human and our behaviors are not always subject to logical reasoning.




I agree with you totally that it is an issue that needs to be addressed, but I don't believe that having a memory loss issue, whether physically-caused or psychologically-caused necessarily renders someone unfit for service. I think that each individual Master must decide for him/herself whether this would be something they have the capacity to deal with...but treating any of these types of memory loss/forgetfulness with an attitude of "I'll just punish her/him and that will resolve the issue" is short-sighted and naive at best, I think, and will only lead to disappointment and frustration for both the Master and the slave.

MNN

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 2:43:13 PM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		I used to have an x who didn't like the :P icon, I told him, well it's one of my favorite icons, one I use a lot, along with >: ) and nothing rude is intended by it, I tried not to do it and  now I would have to consider it awfull petty if someone didn't like the use of a simple silly icon, James don't mind them thankfully:)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmsprecious
so...is "forgetting" the same as a deliberate choice to disobey?


It depends on what the infraction is. Was it a deliberate 'forgetting' or was it one of those, 'we had so much going on' that you forgot? I forgot over a week ago to not go :P to MJ on the phone, it was a quick slip, I could almost see the look on His face, one minor slip up in weeks, that's really good, considering that I use to do that all the time to Him on IM and on the phone; He laughed after it happened. 



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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 2:51:48 PM   
cjenny


Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline 		MNN thank you for all of your posts in this thread. It can be very difficult trying to explain how it can easily happen & you did quite a job.

LAM by your definitions I should not be in a relationship, yet I am going on year seven with my dominant.. and he doesn't consider me  'a dog from a shelter'  I can promise you that.

He sees value in me despite the lupus, the fibro, the insomia etc. Yes he has to remind me three times a day but he wants me to stay as healthy as possible so that I can get the most out of my life.

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RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 5:09:51 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

MNN thank you for all of your posts in this thread. It can be very difficult trying to explain how it can easily happen & you did quite a job.

LAM by your definitions I should not be in a relationship, yet I am going on year seven with my dominant.. and he doesn't consider me  'a dog from a shelter'  I can promise you that.

He sees value in me despite the lupus, the fibro, the insomia etc. Yes he has to remind me three times a day but he wants me to stay as healthy as possible so that I can get the most out of my life.


I happen to agree with LAM on this.
I did not read his words to mean that he opposed submissives/slaves with medical conditions as people who shouldn't be involved in WIITWD, but that one needs to have some amount of personal responibilty and ability to assume participation in their own wellness.
I could have misunderstood him, in which case I am sure he will straighten me out.


                               mbmbn




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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 9:03:36 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		No, that's what I meant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I happen to agree with LAM on this.
I did not read his words to mean that he opposed submissives/slaves with medical conditions as people who shouldn't be involved in WIITWD, but that one needs to have some amount of personal responibilty and ability to assume participation in their own wellness.
I could have misunderstood him, in which case I am sure he will straighten me out.

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 9:10:44 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No, that's what I meant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I happen to agree with LAM on this.
I did not read his words to mean that he opposed submissives/slaves with medical conditions as people who shouldn't be involved in WIITWD, but that one needs to have some amount of personal responibilty and ability to assume participation in their own wellness.
I could have misunderstood him, in which case I am sure he will straighten me out.



I agree, and sometimes my memory sucks.
But ya know what?
I know how to write down important things and keep a daily planner, large calendar on my wall,
and I even have a {phone contact,things to do,people to call notebook.}
If there is a will, you will create a WAY.
post its, notebook, calendar, pda, whatever..do something

< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/24/2007 9:12:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 10:45:42 PM   
MistressNoName


Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No, that's what I meant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I happen to agree with LAM on this.
I did not read his words to mean that he opposed submissives/slaves with medical conditions as people who shouldn't be involved in WIITWD, but that one needs to have some amount of personal responibilty and ability to assume participation in their own wellness.
I could have misunderstood him, in which case I am sure he will straighten me out.



I agree, and sometimes my memory sucks.
But ya know what?
I know how to write down important things and keep a daily planner, large calendar on my wall,
and I even have a {phone contact,things to do,people to call notebook.}
If there is a will, you will create a WAY.
post its, notebook, calendar, pda, whatever..do something



Exactly...and I do similar things to remind myself to do the things I gotta get done and to take my pills...but the point of the thread was whether or not forgetfulness should be considered disobedience and I don't believe it should. I do agree that one should take responsibility for one's own well-being...but one can only do that as much as one is able at any point in time.

CJenny, you're very welcome. I'm glad something I said served as a validation for you.

Be well,

MNN

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/24/2007 10:49:48 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Good point MistressNoName, IF you are not taking any measures
to attempt to insure you do not forget a direct order, you are
disobeying.
If I tell you to do something, and its an order, and you can't even make
a note of it {since you have such a poor memory}, then YES you are
disobeying ME.
I don't care if you have to pin a note on your shirt or write it down on your arm,
you better make some damn good attempts to remember!

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 5:58:39 AM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		i have a friend who has to take many meds daily.....he could not remember them until he came up with the following idea....

he writes them all on a full length mirror every night before going to bed, with one of those dry erase markers.  as he takes them the next day, he erases them.  that has worked for him for a long time.

he works from home, i know this wouldnt work for everyone.

sorry to go off the subject, but i hope this might help someone.



< Message edited by SeeksOnlyOne -- 6/25/2007 5:59:40 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 8:07:26 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Ok wading in at the request of someone who wanted my take on the issue.
I read the thread yesterday and kinda left it be, so some of the newer postings I have not read as yet.

My own idea of discipline is not strictly punishment but includes teaching as well.
Format is simple violations are violations, however they also are information that I take into account.
A simple violation such as forgetting medication in this case would (and actually has) result in a direct order to do a specific thing to make sure it does not happen again. (notethat is slightly different than an order to not forget, I would specify a behaviour that would make the forgetting something that is near impossible.
After the new system is in pace then further "forgetting" would tell me OK this person either needs more training (my responsibility) or they lack motivation to comply (joint responsibility).
I expect clear communication so when I bring forth the issue "Slave, what seems to be the problem with this issue?"
I would expect a clear truthfull non excuse based reply.
I accept reasons for behaviour I do not accept "excuses".
We were on vacation does not excuse forgetting, unless I have set aside protocol and or daily routines for the vacation period and the key behaviour that triggers the action has thus been removed.
Odds are though that any ritual/protocol/routine would not be one of those things that are ever set aside when it comes to something as important as maintenance medications.

Has it happened in my life? Yes elegant has medications she takes every day, they make it possible for her to live a normal life. Forgetting them has happened once to the point where the effects of not having them have been a real issue.
It happend when traveling as a matter of fact. The reworking of the system was simple. There are 3 days worth of meds that stay in her dop kit (hygeine kit) for travel. Forgetting to take them is something she does on occassion but never for more than a couple hours, so I have not had the need to issue a further edict,when she remembers she takes them.
Forgetting happened not as a matter of habit but as a matter of forgeting to pack them. So new behaviour requirements were made. (Emergency dosages in the dop kit).

The responsibility we as Owners/ Dominants/ Masters/ Insert term of choice, have towards our counterparts is simple, Provide them with all the nessisary tools and training to achieve the services we demand of them. This incudes proper medical care and consideration. If we own them we own their medical conditions as well.

I was recentl asked what would I do if Elegant became suddenly unable to serve me.
My answer was simple short of a vegitative state I don't know how that could happen her mind is an important part of the reason I find value in her. Onset of disablities will certainly change the focus of an owner though and may very well make the owner shift the responsibilities they assign. It may even mean I would need to take on additional "staff".

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
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