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ORIGINAL: slaveluci
No way.  When I became Master's slave, I became His property that He will own till death.  Disobeying isn't going to negate His ownership of me.  If that were the case and I wanted to be freed, I'd just keep disobeying until I got my way.  Who's really in charge in a situation like that?  Defiance (which is NOT going to happen anyway) would simply bring discipline, correction, punishment - whatever it takes to eliminate it so that I could continue being the slave He expects me to always be..........slave luci

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ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Considering the emoticon after the bolded question, I wonder did you mean that in jest?

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The slave in the hypothetical you mentioned has no more or less in charge than you are in your relationship.  Both parties in an M/s relationship can end the relationship when they decide they no longer want to be in it anymore.

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The consequence of willful disobedience in your relationship is discipline, correction, punishment.  The consequence of willful disobedience in my relationship is that I remove my consent to his will.  When I stop consenting to be his slave, I am no longer his slave.

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Just because I have different consequences does not make me in charge of my relationship

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ORIGINAL: adoracat

i forget everything.  its part and parcel of the "fibrofog" i struggle with.  so i have post-it notes on the bathroom mirror to remind me about taking meds, and i have to send Sir an email every day to update him on those sorts of things.

i forget to eat also, so that's in the report, as is how much sleep i've gotten since i dont tend to sleep well, especially in the heat.

kitten who is melting......

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci
.  In my relationship, if I had the ability to end my enslavement by either disobeying or by choice, Master and I would both feel that this put me, not Him, in charge............slave luci 

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
This logic is fundamentally flawed....
what in effect you are saying...
Is that you can't demonstrate disobedient behavior or make a choice that will resullt in you being released.    You can do anything and Master will never release you

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 Your logic ensures no one is in charge

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Your views expressed here are very much the typical romantic and even illogical views that persist in online environments

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There are many that live intense Authority Transfer relationships.  More than a few that I have met and enjoyed the company of.  One common thread is they all choose to be in that relationship. They also choose to stay in that relationship by continuing to maintain the interactions and behaviors that established the relationship in the first place

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Many relationships end because people change... but just as many end because the individuals stop doing what earned the relationship in the first place

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But of course.. you are free to believe what you will.  You can believe that you can't choose to disobey in a manner that would end the relationship or choose to end the relationship itself.....

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There are of course many that don't want to take responsibility for their own behaviors.  That their behaviors have no consequences.

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The fact is you choose to behave each and every moment.  You choose to do many things...  from putting the left leg in first to put on your pants to looking at your master with adoration.  Anything you do that can precieved by others is a behavior you choose to do.  there is a consequence to each and every behavior.  Some are unimportant.. and some are critical.  It's not only the behaviors we choose to do that result in consequences but even the behaviors we choose not to do that can result in consequences.

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So of course stick with your romantic views... but reality is not so simple.

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci

First, just let me make sure I have this right.  Kyra appeared to be upset by the fact that she felt I was speaking about her relationship rather than my own. 

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I posted to apologize and clarify that indeed, no, I did not mean to speak for her or insinuate that I was attempting to describe her relationship. 

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So then you come on board to tell me in no uncertain terms that I am wrong, illogical, and nonsensically "romantic" in my relationship.  So, I get called out for seeming to speak on your relationship but you can point blank dismiss and diminish mine?  That seems fair.

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
This logic is fundamentally flawed....
what in effect you are saying...
Is that you can't demonstrate disobedient behavior or make a choice that will resullt in you being released.    You can do anything and Master will never release you

I'm only telling you what He has told me.  When I became His property it wasn't for a short period of time or until I misbehaved enough to displease Him enough so that He'd send me packing.  It was permanent.  I am not now disobedient to Him nor do I ever intend to be.  But, let's say I decided that I wanted to be released.  Let's say I was aware that all I had to do to make sure I got released is to suddenly start being defiant and disobedient until He'd had enough that He'd free me.  So, I think to myself: "I want out.  I know if I act badly enough for long enough, He'll release me.  Therefore, I'm going to do it so I can get my way and be released."  Is that not me manipulating and controlling until I get my desire?  If He were to go ahead and release me due to that manipulative behavior, then He would have played right into my hands, so to speak.

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 Your logic ensures no one is in charge

No, it most definitely puts me in charge.  At least that's the way He and I see it and, as we're the only two in our relationship, that's all the counts.

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Your views expressed here are very much the typical romantic and even illogical views that persist in online environments

First I would say that "online environments" really don't mean a whole helluva lot to either of us.  I enjoy reading and posting here but as far as living our lives online or really caring if we fit into any "community," we do not.  I resent being lumped in with everyone else in "online environments."  I think my posts here make it very clear that fitting in with the gang mentality means less than nothing to me.  Calling me "romantic" and "illogical" is your perogative but seeing as you know nothing of me save my posts here, you are sorely mistaken.

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There are many that live intense Authority Transfer relationships.  More than a few that I have met and enjoyed the company of.  One common thread is they all choose to be in that relationship. They also choose to stay in that relationship by continuing to maintain the interactions and behaviors that established the relationship in the first place

And I don't say that we are any different.  You are assuming that just because I say nothing would cause me to be released that I am testing those boundaries or actively doing disobedient things to see if I will be.  Not at all.  Of course, I "maintain the interactions and behaviors that established the relationship."  If I didn't plan to, I would have never entered it to start with.

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Many relationships end because people change... but just as many end because the individuals stop doing what earned the relationship in the first place

Indeed.  But I am simply taking my Master at His word when He says I am not going to be released.  He says it and I believe it.  Other relationships end but He says ours will not and since I wholeheartedly agree, I'm pretty certain He's right.

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But of course.. you are free to believe what you will.  You can believe that you can't choose to disobey in a manner that would end the relationship or choose to end the relationship itself.....

Thank you - at the risk of your disapproval, I believe I WILL continue to believe as I do and as Master indicates that I should.  If He is my Master and He says it will never end and I am His slave and I never want it to end, who are you to say that that can't be so?

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There are of course many that don't want to take responsibility for their own behaviors.  That their behaviors have no consequences.

Yes there are but I assure you that I am not one of them.  Never have been and never will be.  All my behaviors have consequences as I stated above if you read it.  It just so happens that my behaviors are never going to have the ultimate consequence of me being released.  So says Master and last I checked, He makes that call.

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The fact is you choose to behave each and every moment.  You choose to do many things...  from putting the left leg in first to put on your pants to looking at your master with adoration.  Anything you do that can precieved by others is a behavior you choose to do.  there is a consequence to each and every behavior.  Some are unimportant.. and some are critical.  It's not only the behaviors we choose to do that result in consequences but even the behaviors we choose not to do that can result in consequences.

I think I've said as much myself already.

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So of course stick with your romantic views... but reality is not so simple.

Again, it's my reality.  No, it's not simple and I don't think it's "romantic" in that you are using that in a negative sense.  I am not disobedient to Master nor do I ever intend to be.  I'm not using the fact that He says He'll never release me as a "license" to misbehave because I don't misbehave.  Yes, I maintain good behavior and that maintains our relationship.  But you are attempting to convince me that - regardless of what my Master has established - that I can and could be released.  He made it clear from day one that isn't going to be an option and, since I don't want it to be, I'm sure it won't.  But, as I said, even if I did want it and I began to manipulate to get it, it still would not happen.  Believe it or not, it matters not to me.  It's the facts - "romantic" and "simplistic" as you may find them.............slave luci

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ORIGINAL: mmsprecious

thank you all for your responses and your insights.

Master Mike's precious

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci

First, just let me make sure I have this right.  Kyra appeared to be upset by the fact that she felt I was speaking about her relationship rather than my own. 

um no you don't have it right... first.. she wasn't upset and second she didn't consider that you where speaking of her relationship with what you said.  She only asked for clarity in what you where saying.

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I posted to apologize and clarify that indeed, no, I did not mean to speak for her or insinuate that I was attempting to describe her relationship. 

you apologize when not was needed or expected... but I am sure it made you feel better for doing it... it was irrelevent to me and I don't believe kyra paid much attention to it either.

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So then you come on board to tell me in no uncertain terms that I am wrong, illogical, and nonsensically "romantic" in my relationship.  So, I get called out for seeming to speak on your relationship but you can point blank dismiss and diminish mine?  That seems fair.

Well.. I been stating my views to individuals like yourself that you speak romantic BS long before you express it.  Your view point is rather common in the online environment... interestingly.. not so common when it's face to face.

so don't get to defensive because you feel picked on. 

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
This logic is fundamentally flawed....
what in effect you are saying...
Is that you can't demonstrate disobedient behavior or make a choice that will resullt in you being released.    You can do anything and Master will never release you

I'm only telling you what He has told me.  When I became His property it wasn't for a short period of time or until I misbehaved enough to displease Him enough so that He'd send me packing.  It was permanent.  I am not now disobedient to Him nor do I ever intend to be.  But, let's say I decided that I wanted to be released.  Let's say I was aware that all I had to do to make sure I got released is to suddenly start being defiant and disobedient until He'd had enough that He'd free me.  So, I think to myself: "I want out.  I know if I act badly enough for long enough, He'll release me.  Therefore, I'm going to do it so I can get my way and be released."  Is that not me manipulating and controlling until I get my desire?  If He were to go ahead and release me due to that manipulative behavior, then He would have played right into my hands, so to speak.

Well... there is not to many relationships of any meaningful intent that are expected to be a short term endeavor.  It has been my experience that committed relationships do have an intention to be Permanent/Long term endeavors.

Wait.. you said you couldn't disobey or choose to be released... and now you saying you could do this as an example.  Seems to me you are proving my point.... that you could choose to Misbehave that you could manipulate the sitaution to get released.

The fact of the matter.. There is motivation/intent to behavior, the behavior itself and then the consequences of the behavior.  You may not have the intent to be released or may have the intent... regardless... behaviors will result in consequences.  You choose those behaviors. some you will be aware of the motivations and some you will not be.  Regardless... you choose the wrong set of behaviors.. you will suffer negative consequences.. which could result in being released.... this doesn't make you in charge... it makes you accountable for your choices in behavior.  If you motivations was to get released.. yeah that made you in charge.. but.. if you motivations was otherwise.. well then you where not in charge.. HE was.

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 Your logic ensures no one is in charge

No, it most definitely puts me in charge.  At least that's the way He and I see it and, as we're the only two in our relationship, that's all the counts.

your argument is of limited value because it only looks at it from a motivation of intent to be released.  Alot of people have on-going relationships without the intent to end it.  I would say they have the intent to keep it going.. interestly.. over 50 end anyways.. even with the best intentions.

I love the idea that .. it's our relationship and our opinion is the only one that counts... funny thing is... I have seen alot of train wrecks where they say that same thing.  But seldom do I see that with relationships that stand the test of time.  Yes there DECISIONS are the ones that count... but the smart ones seem to seek out other opinions so they can make the best Decision within the relationship.

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Your views expressed here are very much the typical romantic and even illogical views that persist in online environments

First I would say that "online environments" really don't mean a whole helluva lot to either of us.  I enjoy reading and posting here but as far as living our lives online or really caring if we fit into any "community," we do not.  I resent being lumped in with everyone else in "online environments."  I think my posts here make it very clear that fitting in with the gang mentality means less than nothing to me.  Calling me "romantic" and "illogical" is your perogative but seeing as you know nothing of me save my posts here, you are sorely mistaken.

every is entitled to be wrong.. .even you and me

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There are many that live intense Authority Transfer relationships.  More than a few that I have met and enjoyed the company of.  One common thread is they all choose to be in that relationship. They also choose to stay in that relationship by continuing to maintain the interactions and behaviors that established the relationship in the first place

And I don't say that we are any different.  You are assuming that just because I say nothing would cause me to be released that I am testing those boundaries or actively doing disobedient things to see if I will be.  Not at all.  Of course, I "maintain the interactions and behaviors that established the relationship."  If I didn't plan to, I would have never entered it to start with.

No.. I don't assume.. I take what you say... which is simply.. "disobeying will not negate ownership".  In fact.. the reality is.. you could disobey and suffer negative consequences.. regardless of your intent.  and as you have just stated.. ""I "Maintain the interactions and behaviors that estabished the relationship"".   and the flip side to that.. Failing to maintain the interactions and behaviors that established the established the relationship may end it.  Also, failing to behave can actually be... Disobeying.. Which actually means that Disobeying CAN negate ownership.  disobeying doesn't mean it will Negate ownership.... but is sure as hell can end up there.

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Many relationships end because people change... but just as many end because the individuals stop doing what earned the relationship in the first place

Indeed.  But I am simply taking my Master at His word when He says I am not going to be released.  He says it and I believe it.  Other relationships end but He says ours will not and since I wholeheartedly agree, I'm pretty certain He's right.

mmmmm I suspect alot of relationships that ended... said the same thing you did....  Of course... what is missing in his words but is Implied...  AS LONG AS WE "Maintain the interactions and behaviors that established the relationship in the first place".

"Words are cheap"....  is a phrase many have stated.... and well maybe they are not so cheap... but they need to be accompanied by the appropriate behaviors... and disobedience of any consistency is going to result in some negative consequences regardless of a person's intent.

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But of course.. you are free to believe what you will.  You can believe that you can't choose to disobey in a manner that would end the relationship or choose to end the relationship itself.....

Thank you - at the risk of your disapproval, I believe I WILL continue to believe as I do and as Master indicates that I should.  If He is my Master and He says it will never end and I am His slave and I never want it to end, who are you to say that that can't be so?

Words are cheap... without the actions to back them up.

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There are of course many that don't want to take responsibility for their own behaviors.  That their behaviors have no consequences.

Yes there are but I assure you that I am not one of them.  Never have been and never will be.  All my behaviors have consequences as I stated above if you read it.  It just so happens that my behaviors are never going to have the ultimate consequence of me being released.  So says Master and last I checked, He makes that call.

nice romantic view... hardly reality.

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The fact is you choose to behave each and every moment.  You choose to do many things...  from putting the left leg in first to put on your pants to looking at your master with adoration.  Anything you do that can precieved by others is a behavior you choose to do.  there is a consequence to each and every behavior.  Some are unimportant.. and some are critical.  It's not only the behaviors we choose to do that result in consequences but even the behaviors we choose not to do that can result in consequences.

I think I've said as much myself already.

Well I do see you stating that you have limited consequences to any behaviors you choose to demonstrate... Hope you never try to cash in that get out of jail free card.

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So of course stick with your romantic views... but reality is not so simple.

Again, it's my reality.  No, it's not simple and I don't think it's "romantic" in that you are using that in a negative sense.  I am not disobedient to Master nor do I ever intend to be.  I'm not using the fact that He says He'll never release me as a "license" to misbehave because I don't misbehave.  Yes, I maintain good behavior and that maintains our relationship.  But you are attempting to convince me that - regardless of what my Master has established - that I can and could be released.  He made it clear from day one that isn't going to be an option and, since I don't want it to be, I'm sure it won't.  But, as I said, even if I did want it and I began to manipulate to get it, it still would not happen.  Believe it or not, it matters not to me.  It's the facts - "romantic" and "simplistic" as you may find them.............slave luci

thanks for proving my point.

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci
Whew....here's what I've distilled from this rant:

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Proclamation from kyra's master:
"Kyra wasn't upset but I'm here to speak for her anyway.  Screw your apology.  It was self-serving and we don't give a shit. 

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She wanted clarification and though you gave it, you don't know what you're talking about.  Your arguments are of limited value and if I say your Master may release you, then that's the way it is.  You and your Master don't know what's going to happen in your relationship near like I do. 

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Words are cheap and though your Master says He'll never release you, He doesn't mean it. 

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You are living in a romantic fantasy world if you actually believe the words of your Master.  You obviously can do anything with little to no consequences.  Though you have totally disagreed with everything I've said you're obviously wrong about your relationship and I am right.  Thank you for proving my point." 

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Utter bullshit, knight, but thanks for your analysis.  I'm not going to refute it point by point because it's nonsensical and there's too much anger toward what you obviously don't understand.........slave luci

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ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

If a slave Master is training professes a deep desire to serve but does little to show it by her conduct (obeying, consistent lack of focus, mouthing off, etc.), she will most certainly begin her path to the exit door.