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RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 8:27:22 AM

GhitaAmati

Posts: 3263
Joined: 5/30/2007
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Im gonna take this out of the D/s aspect for a moment....

I have three small children, I dont think I have EVER gotten everyone out the house and into the van without forgetting SOMETHING! Does this make me a bad mother? I dont think so. But, because I know that its hard to get everything together everyday, I have made steps to ensure I always have what I need. Extra diapers and wipes are stored in the van, along with changes of clothes, a spare house key, toys, books, and bottles of water. I know that for me, Im not always the most organized person, so I try very hard to write down things I need to do in a day, bills are listed on a board in the office with the dates they are due, everyone in our house has a chore list, my husband leaves me notes of things he needs me to get done while he is at work if Im not compleatly awake when he leaves the house in the morning.

I think knowing that I have a problem getting distracted by the kids and not getting everything done, helps me to take steps to help keep that from happening. If I have taken all the steps I can, and something STILL doesnt get done, I know Ive done my best and do not feel bad for it in the least bit. However, if I was asked to do something, didnt take any steps to ensure I would remember to do it, it didnt get done, never gave it a second thought...then I have neglected my responsibilities.

ghita amati

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 81

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 8:35:50 AM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
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Serious medical conditions are one thing, serious mental health issues that are uncontroled are another thing entirely.

My take is simple uncontroled mental health issues are something that I'd be seriously concerned about and likely fall into L&M's camp not ready for a relationship with someone else if your mental health issues are not under control.
However serious medical conditions that have some mental component as a symptom are different in my mind.

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 82

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 8:42:42 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No, I don't think forgetting is the same thing as disobeying. But how in the world can you "forget" several days in a row to take a medicine that you know you have to take daily? That doesn't sound like "forgetting" to me.

Having been there I can assure you that you can forget easily. For one, it takes six weeks for the levels to build up in the body so that your brain will be working at full efficiency. Six weeks after you've reached the appropriate dosage and to reach that can take six months.

Secondly, SSRI's are usually prescribed for illnesses that will include forgetfulness as one of the symptoms.

And thirdly, the doctors have a habit of wanting you to take the drugs at bedtime to minimize side effects. This last proved impossible for me to do even leaving the pill bottle at the bedside where presumably I would notice it. I did not achieve full compliance until he agreed I could take them in the morning.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 83

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 8:57:03 AM

angelic

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Joined: 1/24/2005
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i agree 100%, celeste. Part of the problem (in my opinion), is those that somehow cannot comprehend that it is indeed possible to forget medications and it does not necessarily mean it is wilful or disobedient. i am not on medication, but i do take vitamins and ginkgo biloba. i take the ginkgo biloba twice a day, once at night with the vitamins and one in the morning. Inevitably, i forget the morning one! Since the only person i am harming is myself, do i do it willfully? Hell no... i get irritated with myself when i realize on the way to work i've forgotten to take it.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 84

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 11:35:47 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
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Its not just the forgetting to take the pills, but the refusal to set up a system so that the pills are taken properly.

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 85

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 12:05:28 PM

angelic

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Joined: 1/24/2005
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And i feel that if the Master has taken responsibility and control of everything else, he also bears some responsibility. Just sayin'.

< Message edited by angelic -- 6/25/2007 12:06:32 PM >

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

Post #: 86

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 12:10:16 PM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

And i feel that if the Master has taken responsibility and control of everything else, he also bears some responsibility. Just sayin'.

His responsibility is to control her, not literally feed her pills because she can't remember to take them. Given that he gave her an order and is now punishing her and dealing with how she can adhere to the order better I think he's done what he should. Now she needs to.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 87

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 1:10:58 PM

MistressNoName

Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

And i feel that if the Master has taken responsibility and control of everything else, he also bears some responsibility. Just sayin'.

I agree with this, angelic. And I agree with something Archer said earlier...if a Master owns the slave, he/she by extension, owns the disorder as well (not an exact quote, but I think the gist of his idea-correct me please, if I am wrong). Be that disorder mental or physical...and I would think that if one has taken on the responsibility of the slave, one has taken on the responsibility of the slaves physical and mental health. That being said, if the only method of managing the slave's health and medical compliance is a simple order to "take the pill everyday," and the method proves to be ineffective, ie - does not produce the desired effect - then perhaps it is time to re-think the method. Perhaps the slave needs something more. Perhaps the Master needs to be more involved. Some Masters can and will be that involved and some will not. That is their choice. But the Master needs to be realistic in choosing a slave to determine whether or not He/She is suited to deal effectively with the slave's health needs.

MNN

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 88

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 1:15:45 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
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Just call me a bitch, but damn it I am tired of excuses!
Write it down, post it on the wall in 10 places if you have to.
I can't believe the excuses here.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to MistressNoName)

Post #: 89

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 4:31:59 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

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Joined: 5/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNoName
And then others have brought up the issue of willful disobedience vs...? Frankly, I don't see disobedience as being anything other than willfully refusing to do a thing. ie: Master: "slave, do this." slave: "no." That's just disobedience to me. Plain and simple.

From our perspective, disobedience is not carrying out a direct order. To willfully disobey would be as you describe; I understand the order, know what I have to do, have the opportunity to do it, and I am capable of doing it but I refuse to do it. My motivation is to defy him in willful disobedience.

I can neglect to carry out an order because I either forget, do not understand or something happens during the day that prevents me from fulfilling his will. I did not refuse to do his will, but other things prevented it from happening. My motivation was not to defy him even though I did not obey.

It is the motivation for the disobedience that will determine whether it is willful or just out of neglect. Motivation for behaviors is critical for our family. Two people can behave in the exact same way and their motivation for that behavior can be completely different.

Knight's Kyra

well said......."life" happens........but i would find a way to remember to take those pills.... for my own well being.

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 90

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 4:52:41 PM

angelic

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Joined: 1/24/2005
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i do not think you are a bitch at all! :) One thing that needs to be remembered here, she was off her routine when she forgot to take her pills. She did not say that she was constantly forgetting... she forgot while on vacation. Having never taken any antipsychotic or other mentally necessary medicine, i can only assume that with her routine screwed up, it was not entirely her fault. Her Master found her oversite required punishment, whether any of us agree with it or not is not relevant, nor should it be. She answers to him, he punished her for it. My opinion is that i do not think her forgetting was wilfull or disobedient and i believe her Master should have taken some extra care.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 91

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 5:56:36 PM

MistressNoName

Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Just call me a bitch, but damn it I am tired of excuses!
Write it down, post it on the wall in 10 places if you have to.
I can't believe the excuses here.

Wow, MzMia. Honestly, I would not have expected such a reaction from you. But wonders never cease. Here's something to consider...the next time a Master makes a major mistake...and btw, I know a few who have and do, what's say we just tell them to post on the wall in ten different places, "I will henceforth cease and desist from being human..I will no longer have any flaws...I will always be above reproach..." And when they fail at this we will tell them we are tired of their excuses and we will strip them of their honorariums and tell them they are not fit to be Doms...How `bout that? Gracious...I know what I just wrote is an exaggeration. All I am advocating on this thread is that subs/Doms...wtf? We are human beings first and foremost. Isn't there any room for compassion for the very real faults and frailties we all have?

I'm not saying don't take responsibility for your shit. I'm saying shit sometimes stinks to high heaven and sometimes we just run out of room freshener...(no doubt because some sub has been disobediently forgetful about keeping the stuff in ample supply.)

I think sometimes we get a bit carried away with ourselves. Yeah, I get tired of excuses sometimes, too...but ultimately I come back down to earth and look around and realize I'm just looking at a bunch of imperfect humans who, for the most part, are doing the best we can in all kinds of situations.

Anyway, my main point still remains. In my opinion, forgetfulness is not equal to disobedience.

Enuf said.

MNN

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 92

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 6:00:30 PM

maybemaybenot

Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

angelic: One thing that needs to be remembered here, she was off her routine when she forgot to take her pills. She did not say that she was constantly forgetting... she forgot while on vacation.

quote:

OP: my Master KNOWS when i have missed taking them and has now made it a Master order that i take them every day.
we were on vacation last week and coming home, i fell off my routine and forgot them several days which affected my mood in a negative way. i have been served my punishment and understand i had disobeyed but i have several questions that came up because of it. of course my Master and i talked them over, i am just seeking others viewpoints.

angelic:
This reads to me that her Master, from previous experience, knows when she is off her meds. He apparently made a rule, due to her forgetfullness regarding this. She broke the rule while on vacation and is now getting punished.
This would indicate that it is not a one time thing, but a pattern of forgetfullness. I cannot imagine he would make up a rule like " take your pills or get punished ", if indeed she has been consistantly compliant and not having trouble remembering. What would the point in that be?
< rheutorical>

quote:

angelic: My opinion is that i do not think her forgetting was wilfull or disobedient and i believe her Master should have taken some extra care.

I do not see her actions, or lack there of as willful disobedience either. I see it as behavior that needs to be corrected and she needs tools to help her remember. Not cuz her dominant says so, but because she is a grown adult and needs to behave as such.

I am curious about the last part: How on earth can you believe that her dominant was responsible to ensure she took her medicine ? < taken extra care > Was she not responsible to obey his order ? Somehow him giving an order/rule and expecting him to orchestrate her obedience seems ... well... counterproductive at best.

mbmbn

mbmbn

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 6/25/2007 6:02:43 PM >

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to angelic)

Post #: 93

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 6:56:56 PM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

deleted cuz it came out all wrong!

< Message edited by angelic -- 6/25/2007 7:03:29 PM >

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to maybemaybenot)

Post #: 94

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 7:17:07 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNoName

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Just call me a bitch, but damn it I am tired of excuses!
Write it down, post it on the wall in 10 places if you have to.
I can't believe the excuses here.

Wow, MzMia. Honestly, I would not have expected such a reaction from you. But wonders never cease. Here's something to consider...the next time a Master makes a major mistake...and btw, I know a few who have and do, what's say we just tell them to post on the wall in ten different places, "I will henceforth cease and desist from being human..I will no longer have any flaws...I will always be above reproach..." And when they fail at this we will tell them we are tired of their excuses and we will strip them of their honorariums and tell them they are not fit to be Doms...How `bout that? Gracious...I know what I just wrote is an exaggeration. All I am advocating on this thread is that subs/Doms...wtf? We are human beings first and foremost. Isn't there any room for compassion for the very real faults and frailties we all have?

I'm not saying don't take responsibility for your shit. I'm saying shit sometimes stinks to high heaven and sometimes we just run out of room freshener...(no doubt because some sub has been disobediently forgetful about keeping the stuff in ample supply.)

I think sometimes we get a bit carried away with ourselves. Yeah, I get tired of excuses sometimes, too...but ultimately I come back down to earth and look around and realize I'm just looking at a bunch of imperfect humans who, for the most part, are doing the best we can in all kinds of situations.

Anyway, my main point still remains. In my opinion, forgetfulness is not equal to disobedience.

Enuf said.

MNN

flys in on her broom....

How boring the world would be if we all thought the same way.
Viva la difference.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/25/2007 7:22:19 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to MistressNoName)

Post #: 95

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 9:16:22 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

And i feel that if the Master has taken responsibility and control of everything else, he also bears some responsibility. Just sayin'.

His responsibility is to control her, not literally feed her pills because she can't remember to take them. Given that he gave her an order and is now punishing her and dealing with how she can adhere to the order better I think he's done what he should. Now she needs to.

C~

This is how I understood it. My Master tolerates mistakes, as long as I don't stop trying. Had I had a problem with forgetting (and I have), he would expect me to develop a system to remember. If I tried a system and it failed, I would not be punished because I tried. If I tried again and failed, he would wait for me to take responsibility for it by asking for his help, in which case he would be more than happy to help - help create a system, that is, not babysit me over it.

I've had issues with being overwhelmed by some things lately. Obligations have fallen through the cracks as a result. So I asked him for help at a very basic and humiliating level, because I needed it. He was amazingly helpful. Now....If I fail to implement the system he helped me set up....well that's a different story

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

Post #: 96

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 9:47:05 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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That is EXACTLY the kind of master/slave relationship that makes sense to me.

Best of luck, ownedgirlie.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

This is how I understood it. My Master tolerates mistakes, as long as I don't stop trying. Had I had a problem with forgetting (and I have), he would expect me to develop a system to remember. If I tried a system and it failed, I would not be punished because I tried. If I tried again and failed, he would wait for me to take responsibility for it by asking for his help, in which case he would be more than happy to help - help create a system, that is, not babysit me over it.

I've had issues with being overwhelmed by some things lately. Obligations have fallen through the cracks as a result. So I asked him for help at a very basic and humiliating level, because I needed it. He was amazingly helpful. Now....If I fail to implement the system he helped me set up....well that's a different story

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 97

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/25/2007 10:19:48 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Best of luck, ownedgirlie.

Thank you for your kind words, LaM.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 98

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/26/2007 9:41:08 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

This is just too good to be true in timing for me. Now, I'm going to talk a lot about my partner and we aren't at all the master/slave based dynamic, but I think it's interesting and relevant, so deal.

My partner also takes some pills every night. And he used to have a problem remembering what he took- even as he was taking them. He also had the typical resentment of having more pills added by a doctor and avoiding taking them. So I did do something simple- I bought a nice round pill box at the dollar store and I fill it up every week for him. It's worked wonders.

I am convinced that my partner lives in a shifted time dimension. As long as I've known him, and he tells me this has been true for his life for as long as he can remember, he is always running behind. It truly amazes me how much longer it takes him to do things than anyone else. It's not that he's not smart, or doesn't understand. I think it really is that his mind doesn't process time and can't "time things" correctly. He also gets distracted and doesn't prioritize very well- he's almost missed flights because he took time to burn some CDs rather than finish packing.

In preparing for our vacation this weekend, I told him the day before several times that his number one priority was just to get his stuff OUT for me to pack for him. Not anything else- just getting it OUT. I made him repeat it back to me and felt good that he wouldn't get distracted from that.

Now, we talked around lunchtime and he mentioned actually packing. I casually said that this would be nice if he had the time, but not too important. Sadly, I had forgotten for a moment how HIS mind works, and his eagerness to please me and not make more work for me meant he focused on packing and not getting stuff out. While the stuff was packed beautifully and cleanly by the time I had told him- it was only 3/4 of the stuff he was supposed to get out.

Now, he is also very forgetful and loses his stuff a lot. I tend to go through periods where, before we go anywhere, run through a list of what he needs to have and make sure he knows where it is. Then, for awhile he'll do it for himself and keep very on track. And then he'll start getting sloppy again and I have to start the checklist again. But again, progress is being made.

On packing to come home from our trip, I told him to do a final walk around and make sure we hadn't forgotten anything. Unfortunately, I did another spin around 5 minutes later and found 3 things we hadn't packed yet. His mind just doesn't SEE details in things like that.

I was irked at him, but understood he had simply once again let his immediate feelings interfere with the priorities. This is something I've focused my attention on for him since DAY ONE of being together and it is still something we have problems with- but he's amazingly better today than he was a few years ago.

Do I feel he's disobeying? No. I've punished him occasionally when his negligence is causing enough of an issue to merit it. I've had many talks and tweaks in how I relate to him and give my expectations to him.

But it's really all part of the process- I'd be REALLY upset if he tried to EXCUSE his negligence. He never once has said "Well it's just that my mind doesn't work that way." He understands that my expectations for him are completely reasonable and it's a continuing thing we work on TOGETHER.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 99

RE: forgetting = disobeying? - 6/26/2007 9:52:59 AM

lateralist1

Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

Thanks LuckyAlbatross. I think a lot of men are like your partner. They do try they just have difficulty on focusing. It's difficult to be patient with them but we have to be.
It's no use getting annoyed it just makes things worse.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 100

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