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RE: Why do you do it? - 6/27/2007 3:40:32 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Well, again, i say that we have different definitions for the word "selfish", because, to me, simply wanting something is not the same as being concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.  Being aware of your needs and wants doesn't make you selfish and neither does fulfilling those needs and wants, unless it is at the expense of, or without any regard of others.

Again, selfish, as i know it and use it, doens't mean that having needs and wants and having them fulfilled makes you selfish.  Selfish, as i know it and use it, means that having your needs and wants fulfilled at the expense of or, without regard to others, makes you selfish.
 
From my perspective, feeling a need to be a good samaritan and help a stranger, when no one else would, doesn't make me selfish.  What was my motivation for stopping to help?  Empathy. There have been many times i have found myself in a similar situation and was very grateful that a kind stranger stopped to help me.  i felt sorry for him.  If you want to consider me acting selfishly by helping a stranger, that's your opinion.  i only hope that another "selfish" person will stop to help me, the next time i find myself in need.
 
i'm glad that we have been able to have this discussion, dark but, its making me a little dizzy.....or, in all honesty, dizzier (status quo).  i hope you have a good evening, too.
____________
slave joy
Owned property of Master David
 
"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hello Joy
 
Whether we agree on the definition of selfishness or not (which we do - you just see a different angle and negative connotations) - domination and submission are selfish acts because no matter what ones motivation is - you still 'need' it's opposite for it to exist at the regardless of other aspects.  You admitted that you needed to fulfil your inner peace... that submission gave you that.  That is selfishness - healthy, self aware and completely natural.
 
You still stopped (per your example) to help because you wanted to.  That is still a selfish act.  You wanted something in return - to be of assistance - and you got it.
I understand we just view selfishness as different.  But that doesn't stop the fact that I still see selfishness in your actions and that those that see and understand their selfishness is a beautiful self awareness to me.
 
Have a wonderful evening and thank you for an interesting discussion.
 
Peace
the.dark.


< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 6/27/2007 3:45:33 PM >

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/27/2007 4:48:25 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

i'd be interested to know your view on submissive children....do you feel their submission is selfish...self-aware, self-serving...as well?


I would be happy to answer, however I am not sure if the question is allowed under the TOS of CM - if Mod 11 or someone gives it that all clear, I am happy to answer. 

quote:

also do you agree that not every submissive submits out of a desire to do so?


Yes I do to a certain extent that submission is instinctive to some people.  But the act of 'doing' then becomes the act.

quote:

and one more question, just where does your definition of "selfish" derive from, as i've never seen it defined in such a way?


From the same place as you and everyone else.  The only difference it seems is that some see the word as negative, and I do not.
 
Peace
the.dark.

 
so you believe that every action a person may make is "concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself; seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others"?? if that is the case i'm afraid i'll never understand your p.o.v. here. and yes as a submissive i do view the state of being selfish as a negative quality, and it's something that i strive very hard to eradicate completely within myself, a goal set forth by my Master from day one.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/27/2007 5:34:27 PM   
pashun8flame


Posts: 31
Joined: 6/30/2004
Status: offline 		i sometimes think im weird in my thoughts. i feel pleased just seeing my Master. it could be meeting for 1/2 hr just for a cup of coffee, and a short conversation; or if we spend hours together to have a session. when W/we have more time to be together i am more interested in trying to give Master pleasure. first and foremost for myself; i truely love and giving Master a massage to help him unwind from his hectic work schedule, and feel i need to make Him satisfied and pleasured.

(in reply to sweetnurseBBW)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/27/2007 7:59:05 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		There's no need to say you're sorry.  i didn't feel you stepped on my toes.  i didn't feel like you were attacking me, in any way, and if i gave you that impression, it was unintentional.  You and i simply don't look at "selfishness" the same way.  You have your perspective and i have mine.  That's all.
 
i think the fact that there are different perspectives and opinions is a very good thing.  How boring would this site be, if it was all "Yes, yes, yes, me too, me too, i agree, i agree, ditto, ditto....."?  In fact, how boring would this world be if everyone had the same opinion, outlook, way of doing things?  i wouldn't have any reason to read these forums, if i agreed with everything.  i don't need to read views that are the same as mine.    i already know how i feel about and look at things.
 
At the risk of repeating myself, again, i do not believe that having good feelings about what i do makes me selfish.   i do not believe that having fulfillment in what i do makes me selfish.   i do not believe that having needs and wants makes me selfish.   i do not believe that getting what i need and want makes me selfish.   i do not believe that meeting my duties, responsibilities, and obligations makes me selfish, even though i get a good feeling from doing so.   i do not believe that being helpful to others, including strangers, makes me selfish, even when i feel good about it.  i do not believe that doing the right thing makes me selfish, even when i feel good about it. 
 
i do believe that being concerned primarily with my own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., at the expense of or without regard to others, makes me selfish and i try not to do that too much.  i am human, i am a Christian, i am a sinner, i am fallible, i am not an angel, i don't go through each and every minute of every day thinking only of others or without any concern or thoughts about my own needs and wants and i certainly don't condemn myself for having needs and wants.  i do put the needs and wants of the people in my life (and there are only a few), who are important to me and who i have made a commitment to and have responsibilities for, ahead of my wants.  i don't consider that to be a sacrifice.  i have responsibilities to others that take priority over my wants.  That's not to say that i never get what i want but, just that my wants take a backseat to the needs and wants of the people i have commitments to.  This is just the way i live.  This is my nature, my character.  If that makes me selfish, in your eyes, that's your opinion and i respectfully disagree with it.
 
Since we don't define "selfish" the same way, we also won't look at the issue of motivation the same way.  i think we just need to agree that we won't agree about this and leave it at that.  It's been an interesting, discussion.
____________
slave joy
Owned property of Master David
 
"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche



quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDreams123

Hi Joy,

I'm sorry if I have "stepped on your toes" as that was not my intent. I am not attacking you. I am also not attacking the people who choose professions such as firefighting, police, the medical profession, teachers, missionaries, etc. I am very thankful that there are people who are doing these things.

Please, let's just cool down and see this as purely a debate. Nothing personal.

I agree with you about the kind of selfishness that comes at someone else's expense. I believe that is wrong. But I'm not talking about that kind of selfishness.

Have you ever read any of the works of Ayn Rand? (by the way justheather, nice joke!)

Now, I don't subscribe to her philosophy in its entirety, but I do think she brings up some good points. Selfishness in some ways has a "bad rap". Sometimes selfishness is a good thing (as in the example that mistoferin has given).

I guess my point is that it is very hard to find something that we do that does not have at least an element of self-centeredness in it. You gave the example of caring for your baby. Now understand that I'm not saying that there isn't a large degree of selflessness in caring for your child. I understand that. But there is also some degree of selfishness in it, too. You do recieve a "payoff" of sorts. It makes you feel good to take care of your daughter. That isn't bad. If we didn't get some kind of "payoff" for doing good things, why would we do them?

In your chosen faith, Christianity, you obey God's commandments. Do you do this only because it is His command? Doesn't your obedience give you any kind of satisfaction?

I don't think this point of view is antithetical with your faith at all. The Bible promises all kinds of rewards to the faithful. If those rewards were not meant to be a motivation, why would they be mentioned at all?

What it boils down to is that I believe that we humans don't do much of anything without some kind of return in it. That doesn't mean that each and every act must have an immediate return. But, ultimately, we don't engage in behaviors where we don't receive some kind of benefit. Recognizing this and believing that this is actually a good thing can be very helpful in a relationship. Realizing your own needs and communicating them to your partner, and not condemning yourself for having them, can lead to a much better relationship.

Thanks for the discussion.

-DarkDreams

(in reply to DarkDreams123)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/27/2007 9:02:10 PM   
k8trix


Posts: 29
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline 		Personally, I do feel a sense of  pleasure, satisfaction, and fulfillment when I please my Master. 

(in reply to sweetnurseBBW)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/27/2007 11:04:26 PM   
imthatacheyouhav


Posts: 1259
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline 		Why is an act of kindness or generosity (stopping to help a stranger, running in to a burning building, etc...)  selfish? Making a conscience decision is selfish? Since when? 

_____________________________

*if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything*
**collared July 22 2007 by LordKen**

(in reply to k8trix)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 5:18:50 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I understand Prop that we will never agree and that you don;t understand and it's all cool.  I do not believe in perfection - and I believe that it is only through ones flaws and the realisation of their beauty that one can attain perfection and the betterment of oneself only in death.
 
Have a wonderful rest of the week.
Peace
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 7:22:21 AM   
NControlofU


Posts: 204
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		imthatacheyouhav,  I'm with you on this.  Apparently there are people who only see the world and the people in it through very negative lenses.  They seem to think that everything that everyone does is always with ulterior motives, no one is ever kind, just for the sake of being kind.  Every action is suspect.  The nect time they have a flat tire or a housefire, I sure hope they can find someone selfish to help them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav

Why is an act of kindness or generosity (stopping to help a stranger, running in to a burning building, etc...)  selfish? Making a conscience decision is selfish? Since when? 

(in reply to imthatacheyouhav)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 7:39:26 AM   
NControlofU


Posts: 204
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		slaveish,  A very beautifully written sentiment.  From speaking with my slave, I know that she has had very much the same sort of experience and feelings about her submissiveness.  You said it very well.  I think I will have my slave takewhat you have posted here and handwrite it on a nice paper, frame it and hang it above her bed so she can read it everyday.  Thanks for sharing this with us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish

In part, I do it because it is who I am and I have embraced freedom in that reality. So many years of my life I wasted in posturing, being the independent have-it-all woman. It feels ~wonderful~ to be who I really am with no apology, no guilt.

Too, there are times that I think "I can NOT do that" but I do it, and in the action I again taste what it is to be free. I love pushing past myself and my notions of what I "will" or "won't" do. I love being able to focus and simply ~do~ instead of think.

(in reply to slaveish)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 9:12:17 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NControlofU

imthatacheyouhav,  I'm with you on this.  Apparently there are people who only see the world and the people in it through very negative lenses.  They seem to think that everything that everyone does is always with ulterior motives, no one is ever kind, just for the sake of being kind.  Every action is suspect.  The nect time they have a flat tire or a housefire, I sure hope they can find someone selfish to help them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav

Why is an act of kindness or generosity (stopping to help a stranger, running in to a burning building, etc...)  selfish? Making a conscience decision is selfish? Since when? 



No one said anything about sinister ulterior motives...no one suggested that people can not be kind for the sake of being kind. I would suggest to you that those who see "selfish" as only being negative are the one's who are viewing things through a negative lens.

I used water...let me try something else. Breathing. It's an act you do thousands of times each and every day solely for the preservation of self. It comes naturally and instinctively. You do it without any regard whatsoever for others. Is there anyone who considers breathing to be negative?

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 6/28/2007 9:18:39 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to NControlofU)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 9:30:14 AM   
imthatacheyouhav


Posts: 1259
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline 		This discussion is BEYOND ridiculous. ok...joy is a selfish woman for helping a stranger in need i am a selfish person for feeding the homeless and helping at shelters...ok then CALL ME SELFISH... F-I-N-E !!! ...if that is what you think selfish is...then i am PROUD to be selfish and will continue to be so in the future. i'll not revisit this...its an exercise in futility.

_____________________________

*if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything*
**collared July 22 2007 by LordKen**

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 9:35:14 AM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Again, i say that meeting your individual needs and wants is not a selfish act. 
 
Meeting your individual needs and wants, at the expense of or without any regard for others is selfish.
 
Having air, food, water, safety, shelter, etc. are not selfish acts. 
 
Having air, food, water, safety, shelter, etc. by either taking them away from another or preventing another from having those things, is selfish.
 
There is a difference between instinctively surviving and being selfish to survive.
____________
slave joy
Owned property of Master David 

"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: NControlofU

imthatacheyouhav,  I'm with you on this.  Apparently there are people who only see the world and the people in it through very negative lenses.  They seem to think that everything that everyone does is always with ulterior motives, no one is ever kind, just for the sake of being kind.  Every action is suspect.  The nect time they have a flat tire or a housefire, I sure hope they can find someone selfish to help them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav

Why is an act of kindness or generosity (stopping to help a stranger, running in to a burning building, etc...)  selfish? Making a conscience decision is selfish? Since when? 



No one said anything about sinister ulterior motives...no one suggested that people can not be kind for the sake of being kind. I would suggest to you that those who see "selfish" as only being negative are the one's who are viewing things through a negative lens.

I used water...let me try something else. Breathing. It's an act you do thousands of times each and every day solely for the preservation of self. It comes naturally and instinctively. You do it without any regard whatsoever for others. Is there anyone who considers breathing to be negative?

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 9:42:57 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		You see it that way. I do not. I do not because I see meanings to the word selfish that go beyond the negative. I see that there can be positive applications of the word.

I'd also like to point out that this is not a thought shared by just a few people on this board....there is an entire philosophy centered around this concept.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 9:45:56 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche


Your quote is interesting and very apt. Those of us who view "selfish" in a positive way are being thought to be somewhat insane by those who can't comprehend the way we view it.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 7:43:26 PM   
DarkDreams123


Posts: 74
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings All,

I'm sorry that this exchange has been regarded by some as criticism of how they think or act. That is not my intent. I'm not trying to put anyone down.

All I am trying to do is communicate something that I think was a valuable lesson that I learned. If this isn't helpful to you, then please just pass over it.

I was raised in a home where selfishness was considered very wrong. You were supposed to put the wants and needs of others before yourself.

Now I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing. But it can be taken to an extreme. Perhaps I misunderstood what my parents were trying to teach me. However, I don't think I am alone in this way of thinking (the way I was raised to think, or used to think).

There was a mention of this on another thread (I can't remember where). juliaoceania was saying how she found it difficult to spend money on herself. She didn't have difficulty spending money on her loved ones, just on herself. She wasn't talking about buying extravagant things, either. She was talking about clothes that she needed, etc. There were others that replied that they, too, had that same difficulty.

I think this may be something that a large number of service oriented submissives struggle with.

What I learned about selfishness is that it isn't necessarily as bad as I was brought up to think. I agree with slavegirljoy and others, that if you define selfishness as being self-centered to the point of denying something to someone else, that is wrong. Perhaps we need another word here.

The kind of selfishness that I am talking about is more like self care.

This kind of thinking is expressed here regularly when someone asks about how they should go about finding a partner. I have read many examples where a person was advised to find someone that was a good "fit" to what they wanted or needed.

I think this is good advice. But from a certain perspective, you could call it selfish. Why should they find someone who meets their needs instead of changing themselves to meet the needs of the first person that they happen to find? A truly selfless person would do this; someone who was looking after their own needs would not, and that's not bad, that's good.

Taking care of yourself is a good thing. mistoferin gave some examples of taking care of your most basic needs: breathing, eating, etc. Perhaps those aren't good examples of this concept, because they are too instinctual. What about rest? If you get too busy taking care of the needs of others to the point that you do not get enough rest, you could wind up getting sick and perhaps, even have to be hospitalized with exhaustion.

Therefore, being selfish enough to know when you have to stop meeting the needs of others and when you have to take care of your own needs is a good thing. It's kind of like the emergency procedure lecture you get when you are flying in an airplane. If the airplane loses air pressure and the oxygen masks are deployed, you are supposed to fit your own mask first, before helping your child. Otherwise, you might pass out and both of you will die.

For those of you who are Christians, I think the Bible even teaches this concept. Doesn't the Bible say that you are supposed to love others in the same way as you love yourself? This implies that you must love yourself. This love of self is not condemned; it is just balanced by saying that you ought to love others in the same way.

I hope this clarifies what I mean when I say that we are all selfish (to some degree).

Again, thanks for a most stimulating discussion.

-DarkDreams

(in reply to sweetnurseBBW)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 10:54:11 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Hi DarkDreams123,
 
The struggles that you have described here about just trying to take care of your needs and the idea that it is somehow selfish to do so is not uncommon and it causes a lot of emotional turmoil for many people.  The fact is, and what i have tried to state in my posts and imthatacheyouhav, and others have stated is that its good to take care of your needs and have what you want and to do good things for others and to love and have love for yourself and others and doing that doesn't mean that you're being selfish.  i hope that you don't feel you're being selfish just because you are getting what you need or want, because i don't think you are and i don't think most people would think you are.  i'm sorry if you were made to feel like you were being selfish when you were growing up just because you wanted things and needed things.  That wasn't a good or positive message to put in a child's mind.  i hope you know that you were not being selfish to want things and need things, either then or now.
 
i honestly think that we agree on most things that have been discussed in this thread, just not on the word to use for describing it.
 
Self-care is not the same thing as selfishness.  To care for yourself is wanting something good for yourself.   That's a good thing.  Self-care is not a bad thing and its not selfish. Its natural and good to want peace of mind, success and victory in our day-to-day living. God wants that for us too. 
 
Selfishness is depriving another the same opportunities to have their needs met, so that you can have your needs met. 
 
You don't need to be selfish to care for yourself.  Self-care doesn't intentionally cause harm to anyone.
 
Taking care of yourself and the people you love is not being selfish.  Why would anyone think that is the meaning of selfish?  It is not selfish to love yourself, to love your family, to love your neighbor, to love your fellow man.  That is a good thing.  That is what God wants us to do.  Why would you want to consider that to be selfish?  Taking care of yourself and your loved ones and helping each other is a good thing, it is a noble thing, and it is not a selfish thing.   Why is it so hard to acknowledge this as positive self-care instead of thinking it is selfishness? Would you consider yourself greedy because you want a nice, comfortable home for you and your family to live in?  i don't think it is and its not being selfish either.  That is just part of caring for yourself and your family. 
 
To make the word selfish mean anything other than what is commonly used and what is written in the dictionary is to completely change the word itself, just as it would be to change the meaning of any other word, and unless they have written a new dictionary with a new definition then that's the meaning of the word and that's how it should be used or there will continue to be misunderstandings about what someone is trying to say when that word is used. 
 
Would you say that to be overly concerned about your own self without any thought to how it might effect other people would be a bad thing?  Thats what selfishness means.  Would pushing your way past everyone else and knocking them down so that you could get to the front of the line instead of waiting your turn be a bad thing?  That's selfishness.  Taking more than your share and leaving none for the rest, that's selfish.  Taking care of your needs without causing someone else harm is not selfishness and shouldn't be thought of that way.
 
Self-care is very different from selfishness. Self-care is responsible attention to meeting our own needs without it causing someone else intentional harm and is not selfish.
 
You are very right that God wants us to love ourselves and loving ourselves is not being selfish.  We can't truly feel love for anyone else, not even God, without loving ourselves.  Loving ourselves, the way that God loves us and wants us to love, not only ourselves but each other is not being selfish.  i really can't see how anyone would think that, ever.  Loving ourselves and taking care of ourselves is not selfishness. If we make our choices based on doing God's will -- not just in pleasing ourselves, we are loving ourselves in an unselfish manner.  
 
God is not against us having pleasure -- He created pleasure.  But pleasure should be your slave -- not your master.  The Bible instructs us to deny ourself, not condemn ourself.  


PHILIPPIANS 2:3-8 NKJ
3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

JOHN 15:12-13 NKJ
12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
13 "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
 
1 JOHN 3:11-18 NKJ
18 My little children, let us not love in word, but in deed and in truth.
 
1 CORINTHIANS 10:24,33 NKJ
24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other's well-being.

i hope that you will continue to take care of yourself and love yourself and be at peace in your heart and mind and know that you are a good person, even if you think you're selfish.
 
Thoughtfully and respectfully,

slave joy
Owned property of Master David
 
"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche
 
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkDreams123

Greetings All,

I'm sorry that this exchange has been regarded by some as criticism of how they think or act. That is not my intent. I'm not trying to put anyone down.

All I am trying to do is communicate something that I think was a valuable lesson that I learned. If this isn't helpful to you, then please just pass over it.

I was raised in a home where selfishness was considered very wrong. You were supposed to put the wants and needs of others before yourself.

Now I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing. But it can be taken to an extreme. Perhaps I misunderstood what my parents were trying to teach me. However, I don't think I am alone in this way of thinking (the way I was raised to think, or used to think).

There was a mention of this on another thread (I can't remember where). juliaoceania was saying how she found it difficult to spend money on herself. She didn't have difficulty spending money on her loved ones, just on herself. She wasn't talking about buying extravagant things, either. She was talking about clothes that she needed, etc. There were others that replied that they, too, had that same difficulty.

I think this may be something that a large number of service oriented submissives struggle with.

What I learned about selfishness is that it isn't necessarily as bad as I was brought up to think. I agree with slavegirljoy and others, that if you define selfishness as being self-centered to the point of denying something to someone else, that is wrong. Perhaps we need another word here.

The kind of selfishness that I am talking about is more like self care.

This kind of thinking is expressed here regularly when someone asks about how they should go about finding a partner. I have read many examples where a person was advised to find someone that was a good "fit" to what they wanted or needed.

I think this is good advice. But from a certain perspective, you could call it selfish. Why should they find someone who meets their needs instead of changing themselves to meet the needs of the first person that they happen to find? A truly selfless person would do this; someone who was looking after their own needs would not, and that's not bad, that's good.

Taking care of yourself is a good thing. mistoferin gave some examples of taking care of your most basic needs: breathing, eating, etc. Perhaps those aren't good examples of this concept, because they are too instinctual. What about rest? If you get too busy taking care of the needs of others to the point that you do not get enough rest, you could wind up getting sick and perhaps, even have to be hospitalized with exhaustion.

Therefore, being selfish enough to know when you have to stop meeting the needs of others and when you have to take care of your own needs is a good thing. It's kind of like the emergency procedure lecture you get when you are flying in an airplane. If the airplane loses air pressure and the oxygen masks are deployed, you are supposed to fit your own mask first, before helping your child. Otherwise, you might pass out and both of you will die.

For those of you who are Christians, I think the Bible even teaches this concept. Doesn't the Bible say that you are supposed to love others in the same way as you love yourself? This implies that you must love yourself. This love of self is not condemned; it is just balanced by saying that you ought to love others in the same way.

I hope this clarifies what I mean when I say that we are all selfish (to some degree).

Again, thanks for a most stimulating discussion.

-DarkDreams


< Message edited by slavegirljoy -- 6/28/2007 11:33:27 PM >

(in reply to DarkDreams123)
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RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 11:02:20 PM   
Evanesce


Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I do not believe in perfection - and I believe that it is only through ones flaws and the realisation of their beauty that one can attain perfection and the betterment of oneself only in death.

 
 
  Only a SMALL contradiction there.  That's OK.  Many people believe in things they claim not to believe in.
 



_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich


(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 11:22:36 PM   
NControlofU


Posts: 204
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche


Your quote is interesting and very apt. Those of us who view "selfish" in a positive way are being thought to be somewhat insane by those who can't comprehend the way we view it.

 
mistoferin,
I haven't seen anything on here that sounds like anyone is calling anyone else insane
 
Of course I could be wrong




< Message edited by NControlofU -- 6/28/2007 11:25:12 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Why do you do it? - 6/28/2007 11:26:48 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche


Your quote is interesting and very apt. Those of us who view "selfish" in a positive way are being thought to be somewhat insane by those who can't comprehend the way we view it.


i have no idea why you would think that anyone is considering you or anyone else to be insane, just because we have different uses for the word "selfish".  i haven't read anything to suggest that on this thread.  All that i have said, and all that i have read others saying, is that we have a difference of opinion about the meaning of the word "selfish".  You are using the word in a way that is very different from what is written in the dictionary and what is commonly used.  We have had a communication breakdown on this topic, that's all.  That doesn't mean that anyone has had a mental breakdown.
 
i hope you don't feel that i think there is anything wrong with you for using the word "selfish", or any other word, in a way that suits you and differs from the dictionary definition of it.  Because that's not what i think.  But, i will continue to promote the dictionary definition of this word and others, in the hope that, at some point, we can all learn to speak to each other in an universal language so that miscommunications can be reduced.
 
Besides:
 
No excellent soul is exempt from a mixture of madness. ~Aristotle
 
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.  ~Mark Twain 


Thoughtfully and respectfully,

slave joy
Owned property of Master David 

"..and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
-- F. Nietzsche

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Why do you do it? - 6/29/2007 12:48:07 AM   
DarkDreams123


Posts: 74
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

...

Would you consider yourself greedy because you want a nice, comfortable home for you and your family to live in?  i don't think it is and its not being selfish either.  That is just part of caring for yourself and your family.  

 
...

Taking more than your share and leaving none for the rest, that's selfish.

Hi slavegirljoy,
 
I think this is the core of the issue. What is selfish and what is self-care? If you have ever visited another country where the standard of living is very far below what we enjoy in the US (or other first world countries), you have to confront this question. The amount of money we spend on "trivial" things like computers, game machines, TVs, stereos, movie tickets, sports events, etc. begins to seem very selfish and wasteful in light of people who don't have a decent roof over their head or enough food to eat.
 
Where do you draw the line? Consider the mansion that Bill Gates lives in. Look at all of the money that he is giving away to various charities. Does what he gives away balance the extravagance?
 
How big of a house, how nice of a car is adequate and how much is selfish? If I spend $20,000.00 on a car is that OK? What about $30,000.00? $100,000.00? Where is the line?
 
The kind of house that you think is reasonable to provide a "comfortable" living space for your family, I might think wholly inadequate. Who is to say?
 
How are you going to respond to those who have less than you who call you selfish? I have come to terms with my selfishness. I am responsible for what I own, what I give away and what I keep. I am not responsible for someone else. This doesn't exclude compassion and generosity. It just means that the motive for giving and helping isn't because of a guilty conscience. I give because I choose to give, not because someone lays a guilt trip on me.
 
I make the choice for what I give and what I keep: how much I spend on a new car and how much I don't spend. If someone calls me selfish for buying a new car when there are people starving in the world, I can agree with them with a clear conscience because I don't think that selfishness is wrong.
 
This belief of mine is influenced by Ayn Rand. However, I do not subscribe to an unaltered form of her philosophy because she believed that charity was wrong. I not only believe that charity is right, I support several. But the issue is that I have the right to choose what to do with my resources without having to feel guilty for what I choose to spend on myself or my family.
 
Does this make sense to anyone else?
 
-DarkDreams

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
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