RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/8/2007 10:08:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

If the ACLU  defends the constitutional rights of the most disgusting aspects of human behavior....They are insuring that my rights will continue to be protected...... (domiguy)

I`m waiting to hear the argument, that defending the rights of criminals to hate,is a free speech issue.  (owner59)

well, i think we have found who you can contact to fight that battle for you :)








lol,

Very clever.[:)]




uwinceismile -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/8/2007 10:24:53 PM)

lol,,thank u my friend, ;)




popeye1250 -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/8/2007 10:57:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

subinmaine,
thank you . there are many ideas and thought here. from a pretty good cross section of america and abroad .
obviously we arent all going to agree on everything all of the time. i knew when i posted the thread it would open up discussions :)
what i didnt know was how strong the opinions would be, or better yet, how some would consider what they had to say to be so vastly more important then the other guy.
damn shame really, we will never come together on an issue, when we cant even talk about it in a manner befitting the topic.
the best debates ive ever had, and most constructive, were  with with folks who could make a point with class, and not berate you for not agreeing with them.
a lotta work around here to get to that point ... i guess what makes it so difficult for me to understand, is the lack of tolerance for anothers views, with in a group of folks who preach tolerance and acceptance of others lifestyles.
costa


Uwince, I agree.
Now let me get back to masturbating to pictures of Ann Coulter.




domiguy -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/9/2007 1:13:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

If the ACLU  defends the constitutional rights of the most disgusting aspects of human behavior....They are insuring that my rights will continue to be protected...... (domiguy)

I`m waiting to hear the argument, that defending the rights of criminals to hate,is a free speech issue.  (owner59)

well, i think we have found who you can contact to fight that battle for you :) 



quote:

me
I dislike government encroaching into our lives...I have rather startled myself by taking up this position...I don't like the idea of the gov't encroaching into free speech...Which has been attempted to be included in some of the language that has been proposed in the anti-hate laws.


The anti-hate laws have little to do with free speech but someone applying a "physical" action to their words and thoughts of hate.

Not really all that clever....Sort of..lol.  In reality uwince is right....They would probably defend my right to refer to other ethnicities as second class citizens.




caramelcutie -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/9/2007 1:46:25 AM)

I've been following this thread  for a few days now, and i'll admit, it was for pure amusement.  I wouldn't call it eye-opening because nothing said or expressed is anything i haven't heard or experienced a million times before.  I find it funny how assumptions are made and defenses put up when "race" enters the subject matter.  It's interesting how assumptions were made about one particular poster.  Seems several, in this thread and others,  assume this poster is black because of the views they espouse and the way they think of the world we live in.  Out of curiousity i perused this person's profile and found that *gasp*....they are white!!!! They are white and believe it is important to protect and defend the rights of all, including minorities.  They believe that hate crimes DO exist.  How could a person of the paler persuasion believe such a thing? How could they think such things of their "own kind"??

To me there is a difference between comitting a crime simply because you felt the inclination to do so, and commiting a crime with the intention of instilling fear, for the purpose of pointing out to a certain social group that "this can happen to you and anyone else of your kind....just because you're you".  Yes, there are hate crimes that are cut and dry murder, assault, battery, or whatever else.  But there are also hate crimes that are more subtle.  The burning of a cross, the burning of a church, the defiling of a mosque.  Those types of hate crimes are commited to send a message....we will not tolerate you or anyone of your kind.  It's not about living in the past.  In my 31 short years i have seen and experienced more than a few of those things up close and personal.  I think people should be protected from those crimes and those that commit such crimes should be punished, even if it is in addition to punishable offense.  Laws against hate crimes were born of nessecity.  It's laughable to compare religious or social injustices that have happened hundreds or even thousands of years ago, to those suffered just, in several cases, two or three generations previous, and which implications are still strongly felt today.





popeye1250 -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/9/2007 11:36:03 AM)

Remember when Bill Clinton said he could remember "Black Churches being burned in Arkansas in the 1960's?"
Turned out there wearn't any! lol




uwinceismile -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/9/2007 1:32:15 PM)

that really doesnt surprise you does it popeye?




pahunkboy -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/9/2007 3:40:37 PM)

i think the thing- is "premeditated" which can be a huge difference in teh severity of a crime. for- what it is worth- the crimes i ever had against me- were by and large WHITE MALES!

the only beaten i ever took in my life was from a boyfriend.   I got a protection from abuse order on  him. i HAD to- as I knew he would kill me.....he goes to Philly for drugs. Anyhow- his wife was in either an accident- or purposefully drove into a tree to her death. we will never know if it was a suicide or an accident. Being that was the mother of their 3 children- he would have come after me, drugged up.

PFAs in PA are good for 3 years. It has expired- and I have talked to him since. [but not when the PFA was in effect]

BTW- they charged some woman for violatig a PFA here. She contacted the man she had it against. you cant play games with the PFAs.  Originally- my brothers were going to kick this guys azz. I said no. let the law handle it. I had a bad concussion which took over a year to recover from.  [assuming i have recovered]

Anyhow - i niehter hate or like him. he was confused....and i pushed him too far.

So ladies- dont settle for a guy if you think you have no chances with any other,

CONCLUSION: no relationship is better then a bad one.

PS- if there ever is a next time- ill punch back! [or worse]




caramelcutie -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/9/2007 4:09:10 PM)

awww gee....someone stole my thunder revealing what domiguy really is on another thread. *sigh*

Popeye....i have no idea about the comments Clinton made or the truth of them.  I was talking about the church burnings of the mid to late nineties.  Not all of which were racially motivated.  I believe a couple were a college prank.  But really that is aside from the point.  Hate crimes DO happen and it's important to punish them as such.  I actually witnessed a cross burning when i was very small....i didn't actually see the cross, but the charred ground where it stood in front of the black owned cab company/pool  hall that was across the street from my grandmothers house in the small town i grew up in.  I remember hearing the frightened, hushed, and sometimes angry waves of conversation that went on following.  I was too young at the time to understand what really happened, but for some reason that stayed with me as one of my earliest memories.  That act wasn't meant to harm anyone physically, but to put a fear in the hearts and minds of the people living in that neighborhood. Sure a vandalism charge was called for, but also a stiffer punishment for the blatant attempt to incite fear and degradation within a community.  It could have easily caused a backlash and a "race war" or riot, which is probably what they wanted.




thompsonx -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/9/2007 6:33:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Remember when Bill Clinton said he could remember "Black Churches being burned in Arkansas in the 1960's?"
Turned out there wearn't any! lol


popeye:
Perhaps you might give us a site to substantiate your allegation, both that Clinton said it and that it was proved false.
thompson




Owner59 -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/9/2007 8:18:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caramelcutie

awww gee....someone stole my thunder revealing what domiguy really is on another thread. *sigh*



Shows that one needn`t be oppressed to know it`s wrong to do it,or support others doing it.

There are quite a few folks though, who don`t know  what it`s like to be treated as a 2nd class citizen.Because it never comes up in their lives.And thank god for that.That`s really a good thing.It`s just not on their radar.Hopefully one day(I`m pessimistic),no one will have to put up with this shit,and people will get along.

But prejudice is still a problem today,and it`s not just racial,woman haven`t reached equal pay for equal merit,etc.

How many times do you need to see 60 minutes or another news show,do a story showing how black people don`t get the apartment.or the job,or an interview.They have things set up at 1st by phone,with "plain" accented black or Indian guys or girls,only to have the apartment rented when they show up in person.Follow up calls by the producer,to see if the apt. was actually taken,only to find the apt. available.They do this story at least once a year,and it never fuck`n changes.WTF`s w/ that!

Without actually having something like that done to you personally,you really can`t fathom the outrage or degradation that someone goes through.Multiply that by ten,a hundred fold.But just like a broken leg,you don`t need to have one to know it sucks.

I have a landlord who employs me to maintain his apartments and renovate old buildings to make new apartments.He`s black ,but you couldn`t tell by talking with him on the phone.I`ve worked with him since high school,and did most of his 25 units.Even though he`s successful by any measure, he`s told me that he must put up with slights and insults on a weekly basis.It`s like a slap in the face,that never get`s easier to take.

An army vet. and officer,collage educated and self made(no AA programs),elected to boards of trustees and township council posts,and involved w/ long term mentoring of young black fatherless men.Lovely home,and family and more friends then one could wish for.
Yet he gets a basket of crap, just because he`s black.Why?I `ve had other black friends and associates tell me it`s a real mind fuck.They`re normal,feel the same and want the same things as everyone else,but there`s this extra thing they gotta deal w/.There are some, who don`t experience any crap(or very little),but why should any black,gay,woman,asian or anyone else, have to deal w/ a "catch 22" type thing like this?


It must be a mother fucker to realize and know that you`re marked for life,regardless of who you are.It`s got to be stressful and sometimes,untenable.Some might think,"hey, slavery ended a long time ago",or "get over it",but to live it got`s to be a mother fucker.

I read a paperback as a youngster that gave me some insights.
The title is "Black Like Me".It`s about a writer who dresses and transforms himself into what looks like a normal black guy.He travels the south during the segrigtion/jim crow years.It`s like the students who blindfold themselves for a day,or carrying one of those robot babies,to experiance a taste of motherhood.The author was able to get insights and knowledge that no white man could get,at that time.I think almost every kid read that book in high school.

Of every white guy I`ve had this conversation with,not one was really willing to trade places with a black guy.Prejadice against gays,overwight folks,woman of every makeup,black brown and yellow folks,is real and has costs.

Peace










SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/9/2007 8:54:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

popeye:
Perhaps you might give us a site to substantiate your allegation, both that Clinton said it and that it was proved false.
thompson


not Popeye, but have google.....due to the trunicated <sp> thread a few days ago, ill just say its on this page......i cant do all the work after all[:)]

http://www.amren.com/968issue/968issue.html




latexbarbiets -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/9/2007 9:36:28 PM)

Hate crimes are for people who specifically target others. I've lost 6 transsexual friends to murder based on the fact they were TS. Hateful people intentionally stalk certain races/gender and such to to exact a crime against them. That is why hate crimes exist. Yes the law can fuck it all up, but they should be in place.

Another Example, in LA, TS's all go to one big restaurant on santa monica blvd on sat night. Folks looking for trouble would drive through the parking lot there and attack gurls, firing shots and such. This isnt a random Occurance.  I've seen this happen Many times.






popeye1250 -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/9/2007 9:41:07 PM)

LatexB, ah.....did it ever occur to those Trannys to carry a gun?




thompsonx -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/10/2007 7:42:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

popeye:
Perhaps you might give us a site to substantiate your allegation, both that Clinton said it and that it was proved false.
thompson


not Popeye, but have google.....due to the trunicated <sp> thread a few days ago, ill just say its on this page......i cant do all the work after all[:)]

http://www.amren.com/968issue/968issue.html

SeeksOnlyOne:
The link you provided is written by a priest trying to make a religious point about the secular world. 
It is on a website that is clearly ethnocentric.
I could find no mention of the so Called Clinton statement or its refutation.  If one is interested is justifying bigoted behavior this would seem to be the site to quote, albeit with the attendant lack of credibility.  Some what like quoting the bible to prove the existence of god, or quoting the KKK to prove that whites are ethnically superior.
Popeye's posts are filled with bigotry.  Popeye  constantly shoots from the lip and seldom can back up his bigoted statements with any sort of fact.
My position is if you say something is fact then you should be willing to either put up or shut up. 
I for my part have managed to get both feet in my mouth on more than one occasion on these boards.  When my errors in fact or interpretation were pointed out with substantiating data, I had no problem in apologizing for my ignorance.
All I ask of others is that they be likewise.  We are all human and as such are falable...what separates us is the ability to accept our foibles and learn from our mistakes.
thompson




farglebargle -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/10/2007 7:45:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LatexB, ah.....did it ever occur to those Trannys to carry a gun?


Seconded.





SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/10/2007 7:53:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I could find no mention of the so Called Clinton statement or its refutation.  


its there-and on several other sites, some of which might pass your "legitimacy" inspection.... i remembered hearing this some time back, and googled out of curiosity, because i thought "oh hell i didnt verify what i heard on a show or read in the paper in 1000 different ways....."  could i be *gasp* wrong......

so google found it enough times for me to decide it did, in fact happen.....and i chose that page to link to because it was the last one i read before making my decision that i believed it had happened.......and also to realize i really didnt care....

if i type the sky is blue, somehow i think you would try to disprove it.....sitting here in my home, i used this handy dandy gadget to find the thing you asked for, and you dismiss it because of the one site i chose to link that mentioned it.......

have i mentioned the sky is blue?




uwinceismile -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/10/2007 7:56:25 AM)

latex.
im sorry to here that your friends, and i assume you are being targeted....
i would hope that if it is such a common occurence, that the local police have been successful in not only thwarting this activity, but hopefully catching some of the perps involved. and if so, i hope they are throwing the book at them...
meanwhile, please becareful, and maybe stay away from that place till the authorities can get a handle on the situation.
best of luck




Owner59 -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/10/2007 7:56:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: latexbarbiets

Hate crimes are for people who specifically target others. I've lost 6 transsexual friends to murder based on the fact they were TS. Hateful people intentionally stalk certain races/gender and such to to exact a crime against them. That is why hate crimes exist. Yes the law can fuck it all up, but they should be in place.

Another Example, in LA, TS's all go to one big restaurant on santa monica blvd on sat night. Folks looking for trouble would drive through the parking lot there and attack gurls, firing shots and such. This isnt a random Occurance.  I've seen this happen Many times.





  Wow,that`s heavy,sorry for your loss.That`s a lot of loved ones to lose.Thanks for sharing that hard news,to illustrate why these laws are needed .The intimidation and scare factors are real,because the victims are known and missed by their peers.


It`s not some small,secrete, or little known group who get these laws on the books.They come from years of real life losses.Liberals didn`t just make these laws up,because of political correctness or some BS like that.These laws were forged over lifetimes,by law enforcement,judges and the people we pay to deal with the excreta of humanity.Some unfortunate people,like SubinMaine`s friend,will mistakenly get tripped up by these laws.I hope he prevails and isn`t punished under the hate crime law.This law wasn`t meant for him.

I don`t buy the "it doesn`t matter to the dead guy,whether the killer hated him or not" argument.This law isn`t to avenge the victims,it`s for the living,to help protect people who are alive or yet to live.
It is an attempt to deter what happened to latexbarbiets` friends,and other people at risk.It`s not perfect,what law is?It may get shoot down some day,or expanded on or changed.
If someone could convince me that protecting the rights of criminals to hate,was part of protecting all citizen`s rights to free thought,I might listen.I don`t see that though.No one`s rights to think thoughts, are at risk.There aren`t thought police,or thought criminals here,like in Orwell`s "1984".

Peace





thompsonx -> RE: HATE CRIMES = thought policing? (7/10/2007 8:02:08 AM)

out
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LatexB, ah.....did it ever occur to those Trannys to carry a gun?


popeye:
I thought that was the reason we hire the cops.
thompson




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