RE: Drug Legalization (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 3:22:49 PM)

..seems an easy dilemma to me. Does what i do affect other people? If not, then it ought not be the subject of law. If so, then regulations may or may not exist to manage that relationship....but only as far as neccesary to make it safe.
For instance, driving cars. We regulate what side of the road to drive on so as to avoid accidents. However we do not regulate what destinations you can drive to.
As far as drugs are concerned, then surely the same arguments apply as were aired in the hate crime thread. Taking a drug in and of itself ought not to be a crime. However other laws may be broken in the cause of such dug use and it is those that ought to be prosecuted.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 3:23:41 PM)

Legalising the distribution and consumption  of "drugs" is so sensible an idea you can almost guarantee it will be a long time coming.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 3:24:31 PM)

You forgot to add that the fiber from hemp, goes much further than from cotton or wood, it grows faster, less harm to the soil and the oil extracted can be used for bio-diesel and other lubricants.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Drugs are already legal as long as they are licensed by the government. Without those drugs and the companies that make them, where would our elected representatives get there campaign funds? You don't really want a regular citizen have the ability to run for office do you?

It appears now they create the drug and develop ad campaigns to sell the symptoms. Instead of banning cigarette commercials, I'd pay extra not to have drug company ads. Every time they start with; "Are you...." I'm feeling that my life won't be complete without the "cure" of taking whatever drug wakes me up, puts me to sleep, or keeps me "balanced" throughout the trials and tribulations of my day.

Marijuana will never be legalized. How can the government and their affiliate drug companies, allow the legalization of a plant that you can grow at home easily and inexpensively? The fact that it relieves 1/2 the symptoms of drugs we're currently spending Billions of dollars notwithstanding.



caitlyn -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 4:17:24 PM)

If they ever legalize pot, I'm opening an all-night McDonalds.



queencaliph -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 4:19:44 PM)

This is hard for me to admit but I do think it would make things a lot better if it were legalized and legally distributed.  It would run the drug dealers out of business and would make a multi-billion dollar industry taxable.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 4:50:57 PM)

And don't forget to add extra locks to the fridge and pantry. Those damned weed addicts will break in and eat you out of house and home.


quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

If they ever legalize pot, I'm opening an all-night McDonalds.



Sinergy -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 5:03:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I pretty much agree with fargle on this one, a person should be allowed to do what they want with their own self


Drug related offenses almost completely vanished in the Netherlands when they legalized many drugs and set up centers to care for drug addicts.  A lot more effective at preventing recidivism and addiction than throwing them in prison.

Canada is moving to legalize marijuana (or already have) and one does not hear of too many drug crimes up there.

California legalized medical marijuana, and what ended up happening is the Feds often raid marijuana suppliers, hauling off their money, etc. 

Legalize it all.  Let the non-violent prisoners (with drug offenses) out of jail.  Use the taxpayer's money saved by not prosecuting these idiotic crimes to help heal addicts and control the illegal suppliers.

Tax the product, use that money to pay for all this.

Sinergy

p.s.  Last time I took drugs I was 17.  So its not like I have any personal stake in legalization of drugs.



uwinceismile -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 5:15:51 PM)

sinergy,
i saw in ur post that most drug related offences vanished in the netherlands... did  what you read on this give an indication as to why?
were they getting free drugs? this is one of my concerns i voiced earlier,,,supply may become plentiful, but the everyday user still has to pay...
im sincere in  my questions .
i dont particularly care for the eastern european model in many ways, but if they found something that really works,,id love to hear it,
thank u



IrishMist -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 5:44:43 PM)

Hi Orion

Why do I believe that drug use will go up if it is legalized?

Simple. We all know that there is no way in hell that the government will EVER legalize the really ‘wanted’ drugs like heroine, cocaine, meth, LSD, etc. Whether we want to believe it or not, it is not weed that is causing the drug problem in the world; it is these much harder to attain drugs.

In addition, you have to look at youngins. Since the pushers will no longer need to push the drugs on adults ( or what the government refers to as adults ), they will turn their attention to the underage groups ( grade school, middle school, high school ). These are the ones that can not ‘buy’ the newly legalized drugs because the government says they are too young.

So, here we have adults; who are going to be buying these newly legalized drugs; and youngins who are going to want to test and try what their peers and parents are so happy about.

Legalization = drug explosion of massive porportions

I have been around long enough behind the scenes to see nothing more than a disaster in the making if drugs of this kind are in any way legalized.

Of course, this is just my own experience talking, coupled with my opinion.



TheHeretic -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 5:59:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

is legalizing drugs a good idea to you?



          Yes.  No piddling about with 'decriminalizing' marijuana or other politically correct baby-steps.  Legalize ALL of it, regulate it as we do alcohol, tax it. 

        Any way you look at it, our current methodology is a failure. 


      (I'm gonna need to brew up a strong pot of coffee, but I'll be happy to discuss this one with all comers.)



TheHeretic -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 6:06:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Legalization = drug explosion of massive porportions



         A short term party?  Certainly.  An epidemic of addiction?  I doubt it.  My own experience tells me that most people who want to use drugs, already do.



Sinergy -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 6:14:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uwinceismile

sinergy,
i saw in ur post that most drug related offences vanished in the netherlands... did  what you read on this give an indication as to why?
were they getting free drugs? this is one of my concerns i voiced earlier,,,supply may become plentiful, but the everyday user still has to pay...
im sincere in  my questions .
i dont particularly care for the eastern european model in many ways, but if they found something that really works,,id love to hear it,
thank u


It has been a while since I read about it, but there were various causes.

1)  An addict could go to a clinic and shoot up with clean needles.
1a)  Yes, the addict could get free drugs.
1b)  The drugs given were doctor perscribed and clean.
1c)  The incidence of overdose plummetted.

2)  An addict could go to a clinic and get methadone treatment or get other medical treatment to overcome their addiction.

3)  An addict could get a place to live.  Food.  Support.  Addiction was perceived as a medical problem, not a criminal problem.

By doing this, the Dutch removed the need for an addict to commit crimes to feed their addiction.  They were able to funnel all that money they had previously spent trying to stomp out drug addiction as a criminal offense into caring for all of their citizens.  It turns out that doing so actually decreased addiction; they removed the financial incentive for criminals to find or create new addicts.  It costs a lot less to treat an addict than it does to criminalize and marginalize them.

Sinergy

p.s.  The Netherlands are on the west coast of Europe, west of France and north of Belgium; they are not eastern european at all.  To me, they are an example of how a socialized government is supposed to work.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 6:18:07 PM)

Greetings IrishMist,

Actually the local area UM's, are the ones that can get the drugs for you. I see them smoking weed on the side of the house across the street all the time. I overhear them talking about doing X and coke, when they think they cannot be overheard from across the street. If anyone wants it, no matter the age, they can get it easily.

There really is no such thing as pushers anymore, they sell illegal substances.

I will not go into specifics of my youth, but suffice to say I have been around alot too. Not sure where you were but drugs have always been easily attainable.

To another comment someone else made, the everyday user has to pay but if supply goes up, then price will drop. The drugs will not have as huge an expense attached to them and if mass produced properly, will be cheaper to make. You will also see a reduction in chemicals substitutions that may cause other problems, meaning that organic chemistry can use the direct unrefined additive, or you try and distill it from other things and often leave in very harmful chemicals and heavy metals. The reduction in violence attributed to drugs will drop because it will not be the money maker of gangs. You will not have UM's attracted to selling it, because it is readily available elsewhere. No more robberies of a user when they try to buy drugs, and instead of selling them something they just beat them, kill them and take their money.

Hell if we legalized drugs and prostitution at the same time, organized crime and gangs would be reeling from the financial loses. We would create extra revenue, save revenue, and use that money for the best treatment and education program that has ever been seen. Then again it may well be a fiasco since it would be the government managing the program, and the US government does not have a good record at successful programs.

Orion



quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Hi Orion

Why do I believe that drug use will go up if it is legalized?

Simple. We all know that there is no way in hell that the government will EVER legalize the really ‘wanted’ drugs like heroine, cocaine, meth, LSD, etc. Whether we want to believe it or not, it is not weed that is causing the drug problem in the world; it is these much harder to attain drugs.

In addition, you have to look at youngins. Since the pushers will no longer need to push the drugs on adults ( or what the government refers to as adults ), they will turn their attention to the underage groups ( grade school, middle school, high school ). These are the ones that can not ‘buy’ the newly legalized drugs because the government says they are too young.

So, here we have adults; who are going to be buying these newly legalized drugs; and youngins who are going to want to test and try what their peers and parents are so happy about.

Legalization = drug explosion of massive porportions

I have been around long enough behind the scenes to see nothing more than a disaster in the making if drugs of this kind are in any way legalized.

Of course, this is just my own experience talking, coupled with my opinion.



IrishMist -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 7:05:20 PM)

hi Orion

Ok. Let’s really lay it out. Legalize drugs. First, you have to list WHICH drugs are going to be legalized. Are we just talking weed? Ok, no big huge deal there, I will concede that point. But take the whole spectrum into consideration.

Legalize all drugs that are currently considered to be illegal by the government. ALL. Don’t limit it to just a few that may have medicinal qualities ( and I am not knocking this; I know for a fact that some do have medicinal qualities )

So. All previously illegal drugs are now legal. Ok, let’s strap an age restriction on these now legal drugs. Shall we keep it the same as tabacoo? Higher? Lower? For the sake of this post, let’s keep it the same as tabacoo. Now, here we have an age limit of 18 to be able to purchase ‘legal’ drugs ( heroine, cocaine, PCP, LSD, Meth, weed, opium, MDMA, etc ) Now, I am not going to bother with the age limit 18 and over since they can now legally attain all these new wonderful treats from the government .

17 and under. Dayum, but they are flipping upset that they were kept out of the loop. Those who have friends 18 and over suddenly find themselves out of the loop cause they cant buy the heroin or the meth to bang with their friends. Not to mention that most of them have never tried it before…ITS NOW LEGAL AND EVERYONE WHO IS COOL IS DOING IT….they want theirs. So, they convince their friends to let them try some. They pass their friends a bit of money…they buy, they try, they become hooked. And the cycle continues. Instead of 10 who are drug users, we now have 20, then 30...and so , and so on.. ( and yes, I know…this is a gross over estimate…but, I would be willing to bet that it is dayum close to the actual estimate )

Now lets move to those underage who all of sudden get to see their parents in the morning sharing not only a pot of coffee, but some good ole coke or crank. They get to watch their parents go off to work in a drug induced haze; never mind that for all their lives they were told that drugs, driving, using machinery, etc…was a bad mix…that does not matter anymore…because DRUGS ARE NOW LEGAL.

I think you get the drift of where this is going. Legalizing drugs will lead to more problems than this country already has. But hey…who the fuck cares right…

( I am not even going to touch on the subject that legalizing drugs will reduce drug related crimes...)

/going off to find someone to be mean to [8|]



lighthearted -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 7:13:57 PM)

no.  absolutely, unequivocally, no. 

my brother was a longtime drug user and died at the age of 37 from a heroin overdose.  his body at that time was a great example of what 24 years of drug use looks like - old and tired, not to mention a weakened heart.  I cannot even begin to explain the the heartache, pain and frustration the effect of his wasted life had on his family.

I tend to be fairly liberal when it comes to a lot of things, but this is one subject I'll never back down on. 



TheHeretic -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 7:14:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Now lets move to those underage who all of sudden get to see their parents in the morning sharing not only a pot of coffee, but some good ole coke or crank. They get to watch their parents go off to work in a drug induced haze; never mind that for all their lives they were told that drugs, driving, using machinery, etc…was a bad mix…that does not matter anymore…because DRUGS ARE NOW LEGAL.



               Why do you assume a legalization would produce such results?  Do the ___'s see their parents having margaritas for breakfast?  Why do you assume a change in the marketing of something already completely available would destroy the morals and ethics of a nation?

      Beer is completely legal, but showing up for work smashed will get your ass fired all the same.  Same with driving or operating machinery or performing brain surgery for that matter.



HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 7:38:39 PM)

Okay, so drugs are legalized and as you are getting on an airliner and you glance in the flight deck and see both pilot and copilot burning rocks. Do you stay on the plane or get off? If you get off then no matter what you may think you really are not for legalization.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 7:47:53 PM)

Greetings IrishMist,

Drug abuse has nothing to do whether a drug is legal or not:

"Non-medical use of prescription drugs is now second only to marijuana as the most prevalent drug problem in the United States and the problem is growing, with more people reporting first-time misuse of prescription drugs than those who reported first-time use of marijuana between 2002 and 2004.
But it's not Internet sales of prescription drugs that is driving the increase. A new report from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration shows that most young people get the prescription drugs they abuse from friends of family members -- many times the family medicine cabinet. "

See more here http://alcoholism.about.com/b/a/256308.htm

The problem is with prevention, education and treatment. Prescription drugs are abused more each day. Legalization of the illicit drugs will have no more effect than the ones most UM's can get out of the family medicine cabinet. Your reasoning doesn't fly based on the studies out there.

Greetings lighthearted,

If your brother had been able to go to a medical facility, during that time, and there was good treatment for addiction, would his chances to live have been increased? If the users have to go to the place that can offer treatment, then their odds of getting that treatment increase. Is it better for addicts of herion to lay in a squat or alley when they are using, or under the observation of trained medical personel? I can understand your pain, while it was not a brother, I have lost several friends to addiction. I have been able to help 1 in 5 of my friends stay clean, and she is nearing her 3 year mark. I literally had to use bondage to keep her in one place, because it took months to get her into a treatment facility. If you want to help people like your brother and my friends, then they need to get treatment not prison.

On a seperate note if anyone has ever wondered what political figures have to say about drugs try this site http://www.ontheissues.org/Drugs.htm . You can check other issues as well from the list on the left of that page.


Orion



Mercnbeth -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 8:02:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

...Now lets move to those underage who all of sudden get to see their parents in the morning sharing not only a pot of coffee, but some good ole coke or crank. They get to watch their parents go off to work in a drug induced haze; never mind that for all their lives they were told that drugs, driving, using machinery, etc…was a bad mix…that does not matter anymore…because DRUGS ARE NOW LEGAL.



Medicines/Drugs ARE legal....just not for everyone.  Mom & Dad are already taking mood altering substances and providing their kids with access to them as well...out of their prescription/OTC bottles/packages and from some things they find on the grocery store shelf.   kids that routinely help themselves to a few out of each of their parent's bottles and share with their friends call it "pharm-ing" and folks have been jacking their wee ones up on sugar, caffiene, Ritalin, etc. for quite a while now.
 
to the OP:
this slave agrees with fargle, completely.
 
and some other thoughts:
 
why would anyone deny medicine for another? because it doesnt work for them, personally?  why would anyone want to deny another relief from their pain and discomforts...because that medicine/drug is only federally legal for "some"...but not for "all". What a bunch of crap.



Sinergy -> RE: Drug Legalization (7/6/2007 8:08:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

"Non-medical use of prescription drugs is now second only to marijuana as the most prevalent drug problem


Bit puzzled why people think marijuana qualifies as a problem.

People get stoned and sit around, giggle, ponder the reality of inanimate objects like light bulbs and ashtrays, then order pizza.

People get drunk and beat up people, crash their cars, drive tankers onto rocks in Alaska, blow chow into toilets or wherever, send the military to invade other countries, date and marry ugly people, gamble their life savings away, etc.  Alcohol addiction causes immense hardship and suffering, medical problems, etc.  The person takes the first drink, the first drink takes the second drink, the second drink takes the third drink, the third drink takes the person.

Cant recall any problems caused by somebody doing bong loads. 

Sinergy



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