RE: Being loyal to your word

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susie -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 12:29:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rollinonward05 How old did you say you were? The way I read your posts you don't seem enough control of your own actions and abilities let alone being in control of a slaves. Am I wrong? I agree with others here. Your slave needs to be able to spend time with her aging grandfather and other family members at this party. As you obviously feel you need to spend time with this cousin you have just met. Compromise is just one of the back bones of what makes these kind of relationships work. Even Masters don't get their own way all the time. Just go to Ask a Master and I am sure many there will agree. rollin rollin I agree. Just because a relationship is D/s or M/s, or whatever dynamic it is, this does not mean that compromise goes out of the window. After all it is a relationship and relationships of any kind take work, communication and compromise to be sucessful. Another thing that concerns me is that the OP took part of his slaves private message to him and posted it here on to the forum. Private posts between 2 people whatever their relationship should be kept private and not used to try and score points.

BBBTBW -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 1:24:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petal7 quote: ORIGINAL: BBBTBW AKBarbarian, I have read the WHOLE thread....and to be honest I think you come off a bit whiney. You didn't get what you wanted because of some self-imposed limitations. Yet, you want to blame your slave for it. You BOTH made some mistakes here and you should BOTH be punished for them. You for making her agree to something before you had the facts. And she for disobeying your directives. It is your responsibility for making the "M/s" dynamic work. In order for it to work properly, you have to have a handle first on yourself, then on it. It seems the former is lacking which will make the latter be impossible. I can't help but laugh. A Master had a dilemma in dealing with a situation, and came to the board for perspective. From what I've seen, he's been very respectful of people's varying opinions (and let's face it - they vary from one end of the spectrum to the other) and he's called whiney? I will not apply my dynamics to anyone else because I understand that people are different. But my Master gets what he wants, when he wants it, how he wants it. And if I don't obey, I expect that the discipline will be swift and appropriate. I am thrilled beyond words when he takes the time to redirect me back to focus on my service to him. It means that he cares enough about me and my personal growth to take time to help me. Unless I'm misunderstanding, she gave him facts about the party and his directives were based upon the information she gave. Then she was told the plans had changed (or were different than she'd been told) and out of that, a disregard of his directives arose. It seems to me he has a very good handle on himself -- to the point of recognizing when he needed to not make a hasty decision about punishment/discipline. I think it is honorable that the OP cares enough about his girl and their relationship that he is taking the time to not react on his own personal wishes but instead gather other points of view before making his decisions. I think it's mature of him to recognize that he needs other perspectives to make an objective decision. I also think it's courageous of him to put his situation up for public scrutiny. I would venture to say that if we all had others take a look at decisions we've made in various situations, we would fall short in others' eyes. I don't seen any indication that he is trying to cut her off from family by asking her to shorten her attendance at the event to accompany him to one of his family events. I don't know -- there are obviously nuances that we as forum posters will never know. I can just say that I don't see any bells and whistles going off in my head. It's serious enough to cause concern, certainly. But they are still young in the relationship and working through boundaries. I don't see an eminent collapse of M/s infrastructure either. What I am most curious about though is, why can't people contribute their own personal experiences in a constructive manner without attacking the person(s) involved anymore? Have we become a society that thrives only on putting down others to make us feel better about ourselves? How sad of a commentary on life is that? Oh well, in the immortal words of Randall from Clerks, "There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?" You picked one paragraph out of my post with which to use as a catalyst for your post. I did not see myself as attacking him. I saw myself telling him how I saw his behavior. He was being whiney. Did you not read the rest of my post? I did offer some ideas as to how he could have avoided this situation. I even offered punishment ideas which he asked for. Since he was seeing only the M/s part of the issue, yes I told him that it was his responsibility to make it work. He told her arbirtrarily to agree to his decision when he had no facts to base his decision on. She probably did this with a pure heart as she didn't realize she was misled by her mother. When the situation changed, he got upset because her priorities had to change with the situation. This indicated to me that he doesn't see her as a human with her own responsibilities, it indicates to me that he sees her as an object that is to obey regardless of the circumstances. So in order to make that M/s dynamic work, he needs to establish some ground rules that cannot be broken....HIS RESPONSIBILITY since it is HIS FOCUS. Most if not all of us have responsibilities to those other than our significant others and in that we need understanding when the need arises to handle those other responsibilities regardless of the M/s dynamic we live within.

akbarbarian -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 4:29:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cjenny ak, I only read the first few pages so I am probably repeating some posts. Forcing someone to chose between family and a relationship is destructive to the one being forced to choose. No one should be forced into that sort of decision! Not slave nor submissive nor vanilla. I think you accidently put her in an impossible place. I choose my husband over family. Now.. I am divorced & estranged from my family. I need them but because I had to avoid all gatherings to please ex-hubby I lost them. You say that there are strings that should be cut? That could be true, but remember cutting of family strings has reprecussions that last a lifetime. Family, even if they are unpleasant is still family. Never again will I let myself into a position where I actually have to choose between that. Even tho I'm shut off from my parents and sisters I keep hoping that they will take me back. I miss them. Jesus I miss them all so much. I have not had Christmas with family in over 20 years, that means I have no clue what kind of traditions they have now. Dunno what they eat for dinner. Dunno when they open presents. Dunno what if feels like to be surrounded by family anymore. Likely I would be miserable at those gatherings but I wish wish wish I could find out first hand. You need family at 26. You need family at 86. If you burn those bridges then um well, you no longer have family. That was just MY story and my perspective on it. I cried when I wrote this because I have tried so so damned hard to get back into my familys arms but it is too late. Wow that's harsh. I never thought family could be like that. My family welcomes me when I arrive, and doesn't bother me if I leave. It's always like that.

AquaticSub -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 4:39:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: akbarbarian Wow that's harsh. I never thought family could be like that. My family welcomes me when I arrive, and doesn't bother me if I leave. It's always like that. Family are people. If you treat them well, they will treat you well. If you ignore them, cut them off, make them low on your list of priorities... they will do the same to you. Added: Family will always be there for you, but it's not a "give, give, give, give" thing. You have to be there for them too. I would be very cross with anyone who tried to prevent me from being there for my family.

LadyHeart -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 5:06:12 PM)
I have just read your profile where you say: "I also have Antisocial Personality Disorder which means I have no moral compass to speak of, and think in terms of what works or doesn't work rather than in terms of right and wrong. That means I can be sadistic, selfish, and disregard your rights entirely with no sense of guilt however I believe in proper care and feeding so I'm not destructive or reckless either. I have no criminal record, which is rare with my disorder. I am also likely to impose my beliefs on you as well as my will, so be prepared to yield up that moral compass for me to smash to bits. " This confirms to me that this is nothing about D/s and everything about your inability to comprehend normal family dynamics. It also explains to me your heartless comments about attitudes to death, which very few would share. I have to question whether you are really the right person to own a slave at all since the normal human criteria on which decisions are based are not open to you. :)) LH

DrkJourney -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 5:34:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHeart I have just read your profile where you say: "I also have Antisocial Personality Disorder which means I have no moral compass to speak of, and think in terms of what works or doesn't work rather than in terms of right and wrong. That means I can be sadistic, selfish, and disregard your rights entirely with no sense of guilt however I believe in proper care and feeding so I'm not destructive or reckless either. I have no criminal record, which is rare with my disorder. I am also likely to impose my beliefs on you as well as my will, so be prepared to yield up that moral compass for me to smash to bits. " This confirms to me that this is nothing about D/s and everything about your inability to comprehend normal family dynamics. It also explains to me your heartless comments about attitudes to death, which very few would share. I have to question whether you are really the right person to own a slave at all since the normal human criteria on which decisions are based are not open to you. :)) LH I read this as well, and have the same thoughts Then I thought....well she surely read this, and responded to it, so she had to know what she was walking into...then I read hers and she seems eager to be this "kate" that he's looking for They say that there is someone for everyone, so I'm thinking maybe they deserve each other?

MagiksSlave -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 5:55:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHeart I have just read your profile where you say: "I also have Antisocial Personality Disorder which means I have no moral compass to speak of, and think in terms of what works or doesn't work rather than in terms of right and wrong. That means I can be sadistic, selfish, and disregard your rights entirely with no sense of guilt however I believe in proper care and feeding so I'm not destructive or reckless either. I have no criminal record, which is rare with my disorder. I am also likely to impose my beliefs on you as well as my will, so be prepared to yield up that moral compass for me to smash to bits. " This confirms to me that this is nothing about D/s and everything about your inability to comprehend normal family dynamics. It also explains to me your heartless comments about attitudes to death, which very few would share. I have to question whether you are really the right person to own a slave at all since the normal human criteria on which decisions are based are not open to you. :)) LH Exactly, people with this disorder do not belong beeing Masters, Im not beeing mean or calling him fake Im simply beeing realistic, he us useing beeing a Master as an easy way to fulfill the deamons that his disorder causes instead of getting treatment for it. The fact is these qualities do not a Master make in fact it is the very opposite. It seems he thinks beeing a Master means that he can be all these things without beeing questioned and there for is hideing behind the title Master. But in truth beeing a Master means you need to take care of another person they are intrusting there life to you surrendering and you cant safely surrander to a person who has these traits. Honestly it scares me and I feel the slave that has intrusted herself to him is in danger (this is my opinion as someone who does have psyc cradentials) A lot of things make a lot more sence to me (addmits she didnt read his ANTIRE profile just parts of it and this beeing pointed out makes things make a lot more sence) Magik's slave

AquaticSub -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 5:57:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHeart I have just read your profile where you say: "I also have Antisocial Personality Disorder which means I have no moral compass to speak of, and think in terms of what works or doesn't work rather than in terms of right and wrong. That means I can be sadistic, selfish, and disregard your rights entirely with no sense of guilt however I believe in proper care and feeding so I'm not destructive or reckless either. I have no criminal record, which is rare with my disorder. I am also likely to impose my beliefs on you as well as my will, so be prepared to yield up that moral compass for me to smash to bits. " This confirms to me that this is nothing about D/s and everything about your inability to comprehend normal family dynamics. It also explains to me your heartless comments about attitudes to death, which very few would share. I have to question whether you are really the right person to own a slave at all since the normal human criteria on which decisions are based are not open to you. :)) LH Damn. This explains a lot about the situation. I again suggest that if you want to a slave, find one who doesn't want a relationship with her family or friends. Otherwise, you might be a better off with a woman who is willing to tell you when your disorder is acting up. And accept it when she says that.

akbarbarian -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 5:59:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petal7 quote: ORIGINAL: akbarbarian . . .I am not keen on threats, manipulation, and guilt trips being used to control someone. Apparently she was given this big song and dance about "How would you feel if you were standing at your grandfather's grave and you knew you could have gone to his last birthday party but didn't". I'm with you on that one. I think that manipulation of that sort is disgusting. I was in a similar situation with my family. Now let me preface this with the fact that my situation is very different from this one and most that the general girl is in. My family used guilt tactics, intimidation and were downright abusive toward me (a precedence set from the time I was very young) to the point that it was a detriment to my emotional health. Master made a very tough decision when he put his foot down and said "No more!" From a slave's point of view, I do know what it's like to feel torn between the loyalty you've chosen and the one you are genetically connected to. It seems that in the vanilla world, it is a taboo thing to even give the appearance of asking someone to choose between family and relationship. But I think that we are on a slippery slope in the BDSM world of allowing things to become sacred cows. If as a slave, I knew that I was going to have trouble tearing myself away because of family pressure, but felt it appropriate and essential that I attend the event, I would ask my Master to go with me - or put in other fail-safe measures so that I could fulfill both my committment to the family and my devotion to obeying his orders. If I didn't take such measures and allowed myself to be late, I would not only expect severe punishment for blatant disobedience, but I would expect to face the fact that I had disappointed and possibly hurt him with my choices. I would fully expect to answer questions about my loyalty. My point of view is skewed though, because my Master has been better to me in the last 6 months than my family was to me all my life. My Master has stood by me through momentous issues where my family had all but abandoned me. If I were to betray that, I would be the one asking, long before he did, what in the world I was thinking. Good luck in working through your situation. -- petal Thank you for your view. Unfortunately it's not always easy to know when to ride in on a white horse for the slave's sake. I've several times experienced dissatisfaction in my partner towards her family and thought of wanting to protect her, and later had that person change her view. In this case in particular, I've been trying to look out for the best interest of the M/s relationship, above and beyond what's most convenient for either one of us as an individual so it isn't her or me I'm trying to save or endorse the interests of exactly.

akbarbarian -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 6:00:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charlotte12 quote: ORIGINAL: akbarbarian I am also outraged at others using guilt, especially on those close to me, so my regard for what they want just drops way way down when I see that and I tend to not care what they are interested in at that point. I suppose I put up a sort of wall towards people I see that way. What I need to do, is to remember that the person I'm trying to shield doesn't nessecarily have that wall up or even the desire to have it. So I get ahead of myself. Anyway, this is all very good perspective. I'm glad, and yes, I do believe it's helping since she and I have both been reading this thread and talking about what happened. Reading this has convinced me even more that i think you two will be able to talk this through and figure it out. I really enjoy when i see people making an effort to understand someone else's perpsective as it's something i try to pride myself on. I've found myself getting rather involved in this thread and rooting for not just you or her but for the two of you to work it out :) ~charlotte

akbarbarian -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 6:23:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Celeste43 You really think it is more important that she goes to a party being hosted by a person she never met, whom you don't know, instead of an elderly relative who she lived with? Seems to me that you don't have your priorities straight. And if she promised to go to the movies with you on a certain night and then got the news that he was dying, would you still expect her to go and have a great time? I had my reasons for making that decision, despite the cries of selfishness or my being too screwed up to see how difficult a situation it is. It was not an easy decision for me to make, and justifying it isn't nessecary because I am the one who ultimately carries the responsibility for making said decisions or at least for giving the order if said order isn't obeyed. What about the exceptions? What about if there are great personal things at stake? Those are hard questions. The point is, how do you write laws and when do we waive those laws, and at what point do the laws become meaningless because of our failure to adhere to them? When, as a Master, your word is law especially as it is written down, what's a Master to do? What I've read about psychological studies, is that women see a society of people and men see a society of rules. What then is more moral? Is it more moral to act based on our strongest feelings, or is it most moral to obey the laws?

akbarbarian -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 6:26:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: adoracat quote: ORIGINAL: akbarbarian quote: ORIGINAL: adoracat and yeah, i HAVE gotten up from a family dinner and left because my now ex husband decided that i had to be home at a certain time, no matter what my family's wishes were. it was either that or be beaten. of the non-consentual type. Can this sort of thing be expected reasonably, in a relationship desired by both parties where consent is present? i think yes. its all in the priorities you establish. if she's 26 and in a manipulative family situation, its absolutely reasonable to say to her "chose your priority. putting me/us first, or the family first. if you chose me, these will be the expectations. if you chose the family, then i have to decide from there." single woman no children (i am assuming here) at age 26, she should have enough presence of mind to be able to choose for herself. kitten That's right, 26, no children. I don't know firsthand if her family is manipulative, it simply looks like a possibility from the outside. She claims it's not the case with great fervor, but I know it can be very hard questioning things so close to home to even give it a proper evaluation.

AquaticSub -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 6:35:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: akbarbarian That's right, 26, no children. I don't know firsthand if her family is manipulative, it simply looks like a possibility from the outside. She claims it's not the case with great fervor, but I know it can be very hard questioning things so close to home to even give it a proper evaluation. A lot of things look bad from the outside because we aren't used to them. From the outside, I can look very spoiled because my parents bought me a car, are paying for my education, and paying for me to live in my house. By contrast, Valyraen's parents look very strict and strange to me sometimes because they won't lend him a car when his breaks down, though they will get his towed to a shop. Obviously, I can't say if her family is being manipulative, but I'm not sure you can say it either. It took Valyraen a long time to understand how my family works and why it works that way, as it took me awhile to understand his. I, personally, don't think saying "think about this and how you will feel when your grandfather is dead" is always manipulative. If they are doing it every time, then yes. But otherwise it can be a useful reminder - these people aren't going to be around forever. You have to make sure you don't regret time not spent with them when they are gone.

akbarbarian -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 6:35:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: reticence Hello Akbarbarian, What a wonderful opportunity this situation provides you!! This lifestyle sometimes presents us with difficult situations, choices, and the truth is, its much easier to fantasize about it than live it. I am sure your slave is very upset, was being manipulated, pulled from both sides and felt overwhelmed and did not make the best decisions. I think you have a wonderful opportunity to go over the situation, chronologically, point out to her each decision she made, sometimes we have to be shown that not making a decision in a timely manner IS, in fact, making a decsion. I think discipline might be needed now, but not punishment. Discipline in terms of teaching her.. i define discipline and punishment entirely differently. Have her write down the entire chain of events that happened, in chronological order, how she felt and why she choose to act as she did at each step. After you calm down, read what she wrote, digest it, and go over it with her.. bit by bit, guide her and show her how she made emotional decisions, how she was manipulated.. sometimes we just need to see ourselves and our behaviors from another's perspective to learn about ourselves. It seems this situation is not so much about the parties, it is about communication, teaching her how you want her to behave, how to prioritize. You need to do this calmly, keep your emotions out of it and show her what is expected. There is no better teacher than experience. You have a pragmatic situation here, from which you can both learn. You can earn more respect and trust from her and you can be assured she has the tools to be more self aware next time something like this happens. which will help you trust her more. Explore her feelings, her guilt, her motivations, and the strong manipulative pull of her family as she made each decision. A whole cascade of events unfolded because of micro decisions made under pressure. Good Luck to both of you. reticence That's not a bad idea, though I'm not sure if it's going to be nessecary. I'm having her copy, by hand, this thread to then read it out loud to me. That will ensure everything has been gone over with a fine tooth comb, and that we both will have examined the situation in great detail. One thing I like about having a thread like this go up, is that even the points of view that are very unhappy with me or my methods give various points of objection a chance to be heard. I know when you're upset, it feels alot better to at least feel like you've been heard. By having 20+ people say what they didn't like about what I did or didn't do, it not only voices some conserns she may have thought of, but a few objections she didn't have the words for as well. This effectively defuses the situation, and my being aware of possible objections, it enables me to see what could be considered wrong in a given situation even if I'm still confident that I'm on the right course despite objections. Those who think I'm here to rant, whine, or get my back patted may not read this post. Even if they do, they may choose not to accept the meaning or the truth of it for their own reasons. Perhaps it's easier to believe I'm a villan, or that I'm shallow and lack the fiber required of me. Naysayers will not keep me from my course however, and those who have helped in any way, I again thank you.

akbarbarian -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 6:41:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBBTBW Because in the end, it is ALL your fault. This is an impossibility. It takes two to tango. Success or failure, it will take us both to arrive there along with both our virtuous actions and failings. As a Master however, I may not always be right but I am never wrong, and discipline somehow must be maintained. This isn't a switchie relationship, so handing over the paddle seems ignorant of what a M/s relationship consists of.

akbarbarian -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 6:43:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealDom69 quote: ORIGINAL: akbarbarian Back to the topic please. Flames just make it harder for those who want to discuss the OP. All those who have provided constructive ideas, friendly and helpful insight are instrumental in helping make a M/s couple just a little happier. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Constructive Idea...! If I were the Slave in question, I would ask why is master so determined to cut me off from my Family / Support network .. and tell him to shove his collar up his ass... Just my opinion... :)) Johnny Reble If I was determined to cut her off from her etc/network, I would have kept her from leaving in the first place. That is not my intent.

AquaticSub -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 6:44:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: akbarbarian quote: ORIGINAL: BBBTBW Because in the end, it is ALL your fault. This is an impossibility. It takes two to tango. Success or failure, it will take us both to arrive there along with both our virtuous actions and failings. As a Master however, I may not always be right but I am never wrong, and discipline somehow must be maintained. This isn't a switchie relationship, so handing over the paddle seems ignorant of what a M/s relationship consists of. Sometimes masters are just plain wrong. I have seen Valyraen admit he was wrong, I have seen many masters and dominants state it in threads asking how they dealt with realizing they were wrong. You may not be wrong in this situation, though I would inclined to say you were unreasonable, however realizing that you are not immune from being wrong will help you grow.

akbarbarian -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 6:47:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel What sort of disipline? Perhaps an essay (or several) based on the importance of being able to say no, of being able to disregard or walk away from unhealthy outside influences (learn to say "pack your bags we're goin' on a guilt trip!!!" to people that try to manipulate), keeping promises ("Mom, I wasn't given the correct details about this party, not my fault, I thought it was ending early and we made other plans for this evening, give my love and best wishes to him, I gots to go). After she has written them she should read them aloud and the two of you discuss it, cover any points she may have missed and what she has or hasn't learned from the experience. I really like this idea! I also like the validation in the rest of your post towards me, though the naysayers may say "That's what he's here for, villan, immature, selfish, whiner!"

akbarbarian -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 6:50:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: BBBTBW It is your responsibility for making the "M/s" dynamic work. . oh really.. and that's right... she has no responsibility in this regard ... she just as to show up. fuck the stupid things people say just floor me sometimes Isn't it great when people want to give responsibility without giving power? Power and responsibility go as a pair. If you want me to take responsibility, give me the power. If you don't do what I say, don't blame me for the results.

BlackTarnHeart -> RE: Being loyal to your word (7/8/2007 6:55:32 PM)
I have read alot of this and know some things firsthand about the attitude in question maybe the Dominant might what to ask questions of the ones that owned her berfore him.But then again there are some out there that think there too good to look into the past to see if there is a pattern. BTH

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