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Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 9:34:15 AM

lk70

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Joined: 6/28/2007
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I'll be posting this in "ask a sub" too because I'd like to hear from both sides of the coin. Mistresses are free to answer here as well because I'm not going to bother posting there too.

I'm relatively new to the BDSM scene and have no experience whatsoever with long term role playing, or a 24/7 type relationship. A lot of what I read seems to discuss punishment or discipline for some infraction but I never read anything about a reward for a job well done, or for that matter just out of love. So let's pick a random example...let's say your sub/slave prepares a really nice dinner for you and friends or business associates. Is there any gratitude or is it just that's what she's expected to do? Any chance of her getting a nice dinner out as thanks? Or maybe some sexual favor she enjoys?

How do manage your relationship with your sub/slaves? Is there only discipline, or is there reward too?

Post #: 1

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 9:36:54 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lk70

I'll be posting this in "ask a sub" too because I'd like to hear from both sides of the coin. Mistresses are free to answer here as well because I'm not going to bother posting there too.

I'm relatively new to the BDSM scene and have no experience whatsoever with long term role playing, or a 24/7 type relationship. A lot of what I read seems to discuss punishment or discipline for some infraction but I never read anything about a reward for a job well done, or for that matter just out of love. So let's pick a random example...let's say your sub/slave prepares a really nice dinner for you and friends or business associates. Is there any gratitude or is it just that's what she's expected to do?

Yes, there is a chance, and yes, it's also what's expected.

Any chance of her getting a nice dinner out as thanks? Or maybe some sexual favor she enjoys?

Again, the chance exists.

How do manage your relationship with your sub/slaves? Is there only discipline, or is there reward too?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to lk70)

Post #: 2

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 10:12:22 AM

MasterHephaestus

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Joined: 9/24/2005
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I’m seeing several different issues in this post and will try to address them all from my personal perspective.

First I would like to state the I’m going to stick with the terms Master and slave simply because I don’t want to spend all of my time typing Master/Mistress Dom/me slave/sub so that I can encompass everything. When I speak of Master and slave, though the terms are often limited to M/s relationship, I’m talking about everyone in a power exchange dynamic.

In a M/s dynamic the slave subjugates their will to the master. It could be assumed then that the slave wishes to be, do, and function as their master wishes. Therefore, when a slave fails to follow their master’s will, for whatever reason, they should expect to be corrected so that they can continue to learn and grow to become more in line with the master’s plan. If they DON’T expect to be corrected then they probably shouldn’t be with their master as this situation defeats the M/s dynamic.

Conversely, when the slave IS functioning well in regards to their masters will the mere fact that they are functioning as specified, not needing correction, and that their master is pleased with them is in itself a reward.

Having said that, however, we recognize that slaves are still human beings and most slaves require some kind of positive reinforcement or recognition that they ARE, in fact, being pleasing, in order to continue on their present course of action. When the master is pleased with his property he MAY, in his own fashion and of his own choice, decide to reward his property in some way. I think that it would be a trap, however, to get into the mindset of “I’ll do as I’m told so I can be rewarded.” A slave is not there to serve and be pleasing so they can be rewarded. A slave is there because they wish to serve their master, in whatever capacity is required. Personally, if I were to take a domestic slave to take care of the house and they performed adequately I would probably reward them with something because I was pleased with their behavior. If I were to bring someone into the house that EXPECTED to be rewarded for their service I could just as easily hire a housekeeper and reward them with their pay.

Everyone has needs and those needs should be met if a relationship is to work. I believe both positive and negative reinforcement are necessary for a emotionally balanced relationship.

If my car breaks down and is no longer functioning efficiently then I correct the situation if I wish to enjoy continued use of my car. If I enjoy my car and want to buy more flashy tires or a better set of headlights I would do so but I don’t do those things BECAUSE my car continues to function normally. I’m simply pleased with my car and since I’m going to keep it a while longer I’ll jazz it up a bit. It’s a sketchy analogy because my car (I try to pretend) does not have feelings to contend with.

Is it healthy to reward a slave that pleases you? I believe so, if they can understand that they are not being rewarded for the good or obedient behavior itself but rather the fact that I am well pleased.

Is it required? Technically speaking I don’t think it is a requirement but I should take into consideration that solely negative reinforcement can be psychologically damaging for a long term relationship.

Either way, it’s a master’s prerogative to demonstrate to a slave that he is pleased with them.

Let’s take you example that a slave prepares a really wonderful dinner. There are other parameters to consider:

Was she required to make dinner? If so, she functioning as required. If she was required to make dinner but had spent the day misbehaving and thus displeasing her master, should the simple fact that she did as was told and made dinner be something her master should reward?

Was this something she did out of love to make her master happy? If so, and her master was pleased, should she EXPECT to get a reward for it? I would think that if a slave were doing something like that out of love and expected a reward for it…well… to me that doesn’t seem like an act of love any more.

The short answer, to me, is this:
The master may reward their slave as he sees fit, when he sees fit.
The master may correct their slave as he sees fit, when he sees fit.

-Edited to fix formatting issues

< Message edited by MasterHephaestus -- 7/8/2007 10:14:52 AM >

(in reply to lk70)

Post #: 3

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 10:12:35 AM

MagiksSlave

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I never understoon the emfasis(SP) put on punishment. It seems rather unfullfilling to only ever be in trouble when you do something wrong and punished yet when you do something good it is ignored with the reason that "Its what they are suposed to be doing." the Truth is if this goes on long enough at least for me I start to feel unapreasiated and also when only the things I do wrong are pointed out I start feeling like a failure, there is a need to put as much if not more (actually there is a need to put more enfasis on it in my opinion) enfasis on the good things then the bad... Thin about it Domanent type people how would you feel if only the negative things you did where talked about and that you where only ever punished for doing bad and never rewarded for doing good or "what you are suposed to do"??

Magik's slave

< Message edited by MagiksSlave -- 7/8/2007 10:14:18 AM >

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 4

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 10:18:19 AM

ready4srvce4all

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Just as a note, I'm not flaming or criticizing. I posted to the thread in the ask a sub board. Those of us who enjoy the boards read through each one, so in the future if you have a post, you need only put it on one board. Because when it comes to the boards:

"If you post it, they will reply"

_____________________________

(in reply to lk70)

Post #: 5

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 10:28:35 AM

MrrPete

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Joined: 11/7/2005
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First, to me, punisment means the use or corparal punisnment which I, personally, abhor.
What good does spanking do for someone who loves to be spanked?

So I find something they hate to do and use that for discipline. Usually my
"look of displeasure" is enough.

Rewards: Doing something my obedient woman likes to do
giving her compliments on her obedience and recognition of a job
"Well Done." Lots of TLC

_____________________________

Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

(in reply to lk70)

Post #: 6

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 10:37:55 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

I never understoon the emfasis(SP) put on punishment. It seems rather unfullfilling to only ever be in trouble when you do something wrong and punished yet when you do something good it is ignored with the reason that "Its what they are suposed to be doing." the Truth is if this goes on long enough at least for me I start to feel unapreasiated and also when only the things I do wrong are pointed out I start feeling like a failure, there is a need to put as much if not more (actually there is a need to put more enfasis on it in my opinion) enfasis on the good things then the bad... Thin about it Domanent type people how would you feel if only the negative things you did where talked about and that you where only ever punished for doing bad and never rewarded for doing good or "what you are suposed to do"??

Magik's slave

Being appreciated is a wonderful thing, but ultimately, if one submits to another person, then fulfilling that commitment should be goal #1, shouldn't it? Whether they're praised or not?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 7

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 10:42:19 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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Reward IS a type if discipline, and actually tends to be much more effective and helpful to a relationship than punishment or negative forms of discipline.

I think we need to have regular rewards in life, both immediate and long term in order to stay the course. Orientation or position in the relationship is irrelevant. Whether those rewrds are external or internal is also irrelevant, but they must exist.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 8

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 10:45:35 AM

Level

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Good point about reward and discipline, LA. I would add that for some, fulfilling the needs of the dominant is the reward.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 9

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 10:48:54 AM

bandit25

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I suppose that's true, Level, but as someone pointed out...let's face it,we areall human and we need positive reinforcement.

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 10

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 10:56:22 AM

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I imagine for most, that's true, bandit; personally, I place a high premium on gratitude and appreciation. But I stand by the thought that for some, serving is the reward most dear to them, and anything else is lagniappe.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 11

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 11:12:17 AM

velvetears

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i don't think showing appreciation and being rewarded is the same thing, or even dependant on each other. As a slave i don't think expecting a reward would be appropriate, but if all the slaves service and efforts are never appreciated, and shown to be so, what would the motivation be to continue? If the master never shows appreciation how does the slave in fact know she's been found pleasing? If the things i did were not appreciated i would wonder how much value i had to my master. Appreciation doesn't have to follow any set pattern or rule - but there has to be some kind of exchange to guide the slave so she knows she's on the right track and not just spinning her wheels.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 11:26:50 AM

lk70

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Joined: 6/28/2007
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So most of what I'm reading is telling me that the slave is not entitled to any niceties and should be well gratified that she is pleasing her master? Nonetheless, she may get a reward from time to time if it so suits the master. And if there is a sub who feels she wants to be treated differently, then she finds a master who agrees with her feelings on the matter. Or is this a black and white issue? A sub is not entitled to feel or want anything beyond what her master wants?

I wonder if this is common consensus or only common to those answering the thread. Hence, why I have it posted in the sub thread as well, just in case there are subs out there who wouldn't presume to read the ask a master thread.

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 13

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 11:31:31 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Uhh the slave is entitled to whatever was agreed upon to be committed and expected to be entitled to. He or she absolutely should find a relationship in which everyone will be fulfilled in who they are.

Now, there are some who think submission should be sacrifice, martyrdom, NEVER thinking about what they want, NEVER mentioning how they feel, that if they are enjoying it really then it's not much submission at all.

I think that's all fairly bullshit. We're in consensual relationships to be who we are, to fulfill ourselves with our relationships.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to lk70)

Post #: 14

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 11:32:40 AM

Level

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i don't think showing appreciation and being rewarded is the same thing, or even dependant on each other. As a slave i don't think expecting a reward would be appropriate, but if all the slaves service and efforts are never appreciated, and shown to be so, what would the motivation be to continue?

The motivation is to serve, to please, and to obey.

If the master never shows appreciation how does the slave in fact know she's been found pleasing?

Perhaps, at the beginning of the relationship, he makes it clear that if something is wrong, he'll tell her. At first, she may feel some doubts, but as time goes on, she sees that he does indeed follow through. In time, she knows, deep inside, that as long as he does not voice objections, then what she is doing is acceptable to him.

If the things i did were not appreciated i would wonder how much value i had to my master. Appreciation doesn't have to follow any set pattern or rule - but there has to be some kind of exchange to guide the slave so she knows she's on the right track and not just spinning her wheels.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 15

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 11:38:42 AM

Level

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quote:

Ik70:

So most of what I'm reading is telling me that the slave is not entitled to any niceties and should be well gratified that she is pleasing her master? Nonetheless, she may get a reward from time to time if it so suits the master.

As LA said, they are entitled to what they agree to.

quote:

Ik70:

And if there is a sub who feels she wants to be treated differently, then she finds a master who agrees with her feelings on the matter. Or is this a black and white issue? A sub is not entitled to feel or want anything beyond what her master wants?

Compatibility is a good thing, for sure .

Precious little in the world is black and white. A submissive may feel or want anything, because they're human beings. It does not mean those feelings are right, or wrong, or that they should, or shouldn't, be acted upon.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 16

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 12:01:11 PM

LadyOpinx

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Joined: 5/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lk70

So most of what I'm reading is telling me that the slave is not entitled to any niceties and should be well gratified that she is pleasing her master? Nonetheless, she may get a reward from time to time if it so suits the master.

This is really where it has broken down for me when I have tried to submit. It's difficult for me to find a Dominant Male who is stronger than me (ie Won't give into my Womanly Charms) who doesn't have this philosophy.

And I just can't help but want *something* at Some Point. Just serving and enduring forever seems Horrible to me.

I was crushed on a Man who made a Point of NEVER giving whatever it was a submissive asked for. But he wanted complete honesty. He loves to tease and then deny. So whatever fantasy you shared--would never happen.

I keep thinking that there has got to be something between That Kind of Dom and Softies that turn into subs that beat me.

But like my new profile says---finding a Dom is my Back Burner Project right now *giggles*

*Bright Blessings*

LadyO

Edited to add *giggles*

< Message edited by LadyOpinx -- 7/8/2007 12:03:51 PM >

_____________________________

"Every person, all the events in your life are there because you have drawn them there...What you choose to do with them is up to you." ~~~Richard Bach, "Illusions"

(in reply to lk70)

Post #: 17

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 12:03:49 PM

tricia

Posts: 231
Joined: 1/1/2004
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Sometimes, the reward is in the deed itself. i love to clean, i clean my house every single day. The reward is getting finished and enjoying it.

The same goes for alot of things i do for my Master. The rewards aren't always tangible. Honestly, i guess part of our dynamic is - if he doesn't say he is displeased then this means he is pleased. And most of the time, that is good enough for me. Someone who continually thanked me for things i feel i should be doing anyway would really make me uncomfortable. Having 'duties' that are simply expected of you isn't necessarily a bad thing. The reward is doing them and doing them well.

I spent the day with my Master yesterday. Afterwards i went grocery shopping and treated myself to a box of ice cream sandwiches. Later, in response to an email i sent him - he replied, "you....are a good girl. You should treat yourself to two boxes of ice cream sandwiches." That was my reward :)

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 18

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 12:07:14 PM

RaynaSub

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My Master gives me rewards, and this system works well for us.
My Master knows how to motivate me and I work very hard to please him.
Normally, seeing him pleased and happy is all the reward I need.
But, it is nice to get treats for a job well done.

(in reply to lk70)

Post #: 19

RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 12:15:35 PM

CutieMouse

Posts: 81
Status: offline

I'm copying my response to your same question at another forum, with a few edits:

Anyone who has dealt with the joys of managing another person in the business world, raising children, or training an animal (no I'm not comparing submissives to children or animals), recognizes the benifits of positive reinforcement, over punishment (and sees positive reinforcement as just one of many tools at their disposal).
I don't need to be told ____ is a reward for doing ___ , but I better damned well know I am appreciated, cherished, and wanted on a daily basis. Sometimes that could be as easy as a smile, or time to play with my own creative outlets, or it could mean silly stupid romantic "vanilla" stuff; other times I might appreciate a nod and gesture that is more "D/s" in flavor. This doesn't mean I'm incapable of viewing service as it's own reward; however, a consistant diet of having my contributions go unrecognized, would not create an environment in which I felt compelled to cheerfully serve.

As for "punishment" (I prefer the concept of discipline) - if I screw something up, I expect it to be discussed like rational adults, along with whatever discipline is deemed appropriate. I also work very hard to screw up as infrequently as possible, because I'm perfectly capable of telling a Lover I'm in the mood for XYZ masochistic thing, if he'd be interested, and also happen to already be really good at lecturing myself for my imperfections.

(in reply to tricia)

Post #: 20

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