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RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 8:33:19 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

I never understoon the emfasis(SP) put on punishment. It seems rather unfullfilling to only ever be in trouble when you do something wrong and punished yet when you do something good it is ignored with the reason that "Its what they are suposed to be doing."  the Truth is if this goes on long enough at least for me I start to feel unapreasiated and also when only the things I do wrong are pointed out I start feeling like a failure, there is a need to put as much if not more (actually there is a need to put more enfasis on it in my opinion) enfasis on the good things then the bad... Thin about it Domanent type people how would you feel if only the negative things you did where talked about and that you where only ever punished for doing bad and never rewarded for doing good or "what you are suposed to do"??

Magik's slave


Being appreciated is a wonderful thing, but ultimately, if one submits to another person, then fulfilling that commitment should be goal #1, shouldn't it? Whether they're praised or not?


Im not saying every little thing a slave does should get them a pat on the back, Im just saying when the punishments outway the rewards and the slave isnt missbehaving all that much but still the punishments are more frequent or the only thing that is where the problem comes (if 95% of the time a slave does as well and 5% of the time she doesnt but the 5 times out of 100 she does wrong she is punished and only 1 time out of the 95 times she did right or in some cases 0% of the time she did right it goes ignored) Im babbleing but Im thinking you get what I mean.


Magik's slave


I do get what you mean . All criticism and correction, and no praise, would beat your spirit down, make you feel unappreciated, and make you doubt the relationship, if not yourself. Am I close?


BINGO!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.


-Rodney Atkins-



(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 8:38:44 PM   
LadyOpinx


Posts: 35
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline 		Working in the mental health field for 14 years I had it drilled into my head that Punishment=BAD and Rewards were the ONLY way to go.  Proactive All the Way! 

But it never even really worked 100% for developmentally disabled people in real life practice--and I have found it didn't work with me either.

When I subbed, when I would get rewards, I would get even more haughty and greedy.  I would think I had my Master eating out of the palm of my hand and I would just take that opportunity to be a brat.  Then HELL would come down and I would realize that I had messed up big time.

But still, when I started Domming, I had a difficult time with punishment because of my "behavioral" training.   Yet both subs that I have punished for an infraction I felt important--after much soul-searching, agony and even prayer--felt I had overstepped my place. (part of that has to do with my pre-relationship negotiation skills I am finding out) . 

After the way I was trained--If I messed up I was banished--I would have thought that being punished and then forgiven would be Not So Bad.

Maybe that's a male vs. female thing?

And I can't help but give praise to my subs as a Domme.  I appreciate anyone who serves me as a Treasure.  I always want nothing but the Best for them and when they please me, I have no problem letting them know with words, gestures and My Eyes.  And I am known for showering a sub with kisses--s/he is a favorite toy after all. 

So I think rewards are wonderful and necessary for Both parties--The sub needs to receive them and the Domme needs to give them.  But if the sub has any SAMmie tendancies, too many rewards could possibly spoil.

I do believe in punishments---or disapprovals even on a lighter note---in the right time and place when you need to bring a point Home.

Just MO.

*Bright Blessings*

Linda


_____________________________

"Every person, all the events in your life are there because you have drawn them there...What you choose to do with them is up to you." ~~~Richard Bach, "Illusions"

(in reply to favesclava)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 8:39:25 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		I would think that most submissives would not hang around long for
no rewards and all punishments.
 Unless you are in the relationship, PRIMARILY to dole out "punishments".
After reading the thread on punching, slapping and kicking, it appears that
many here prefer punishments to rewards.

I prefer the rewards.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 8:52:42 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Wonderful post LadyOpinx!

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to LadyOpinx)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 9:00:10 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear lk70, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
As for me, I much prefer to praise my slaves and or reward my slaves then to punish them.
 
Using punishment and discipline in the context of BDSM and or lifestyle, means different things to different people.  For me, discipline is not punishment but, a behavior in which there is self control and mastering their art in serving and or being a slave.  It can be associated with training as well.  Punishment on the other hand, is the last measure before dismissal and removing my collar.  It is after every remedy to change a behavior and or attitude that is beyond what I tolerate or accept.  I do not expect new slaves to immediately catch on as to the details of service--as with everything, it takes practice, patience and time.  However, if the slave does know better and still chooses to act contrary; then punishment is necessary.
 
Punishment's administration is also handled differently in my household.  Being disappointed often upsets slaves and surpasses any punishment I can administer.  Those who love to feel pain would enjoy a thrashing with a cane or two.  Ignore them--they are crushed.  Those who hate pain would be crushed, if their mindset is such, if I had to take a severe cane to them.  Punishment is meant to deter future behavior.
 
In my mind's eyes I see -- a slave who understands the role of service, should not be demanding that there be a grand reward all the time.  Like a $20.00 bill everytime they give pleasure to a Owner.  I can get cheaper service from a company who cleans and gives services.  In the reward system--I agree that slaves should know how much they are appreciated and also praised for job well done.  Yet, there is a time and place for it--it should not be a bribe to continue good service.  For example, a party would not be the time to go overboard with praises as the guests are the Host/Hostess' and slave's first priority--It is the total experience 'they' have--not to just go through the motions.  The response of the guests is a reward of itself--they noticed, they appreciated and had a unique entertaining experience.  When guests are gone--I will praise my slave.  Reward may be leaving the dishes and such for the night and go to bed early or cuddle with me for a long time--relaxing.  But, that is just a glimpse of what I may do/can do.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to lk70)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 9:38:50 PM   
LadyOpinx


Posts: 35
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline 		Whoo-hoo,  I have finally gone from vanilla ice cream to SSC Tubbie Toast !!!!

I am so excited!

(Tinky-Winky  would be so proud)



< Message edited by LadyOpinx -- 7/8/2007 9:42:08 PM >

_____________________________

"Every person, all the events in your life are there because you have drawn them there...What you choose to do with them is up to you." ~~~Richard Bach, "Illusions"

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/8/2007 11:10:39 PM   
arayofsunshine55


Posts: 545
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline 		We dont do punishment.   And he is a "thank you" kinda guy.  As to rewards, all the orgasms I can take.  And he does spoil me a good deal.   But it is not a tit for tat kinda thing.

_____________________________

Sunshine

Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

(in reply to lk70)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/9/2007 12:29:55 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Being appreciated is a wonderful thing, but ultimately, if one submits to another person, then fulfilling that commitment should be goal #1, shouldn't it? Whether they're praised or not?


Being true to myself means submitting to him as I need to submit. I don't need to be rewarded for being who and what I am. While praise makes my heart sing, it is not my purpose for submitting to him as I must.  Knowing he feels good and is content/happy/amused/entertained/satisfied is an awesome thing.

I'm enjoying your posts on this thread, Level.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/9/2007 3:49:59 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Being appreciated is a wonderful thing, but ultimately, if one submits to another person, then fulfilling that commitment should be goal #1, shouldn't it? Whether they're praised or not?


Being true to myself means submitting to him as I need to submit. I don't need to be rewarded for being who and what I am. While praise makes my heart sing, it is not my purpose for submitting to him as I must.  Knowing he feels good and is content/happy/amused/entertained/satisfied is an awesome thing.

I'm enjoying your posts on this thread, Level.


Thank you, my friend , I had a feeling you might get it.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/9/2007 3:57:28 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Level, I think maybe we get it but, as Owned said, "Being true to myself means submitting to him as I need to submit..."  We may all need to submit in different ways.  And we may all need to be "rewarded" in different ways.  Sometimes the reward is just a smile...not even a smile directed at me...just a smile that lets me know I did good.  Just as we all have different views of sub/slave/master/dom, I think we may all have different definitions or views of what makes up a reward.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/9/2007 4:16:31 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Good morning, bandit
 
"Get it"........ not the best choice of words, it makes those with different thoughts seem clueless, or rather,that I may think them so, and I assure you, that's not the case.
 
ownedgirlie is one that came to mind as a person that would ...... recognize that which I was talking about, in a personal way. And tricia weighed in, with the same viewpoint.
 
And of course, different people need different things. My main point in this thread is that there are indeed some submissives that do not need reward in order to feel fulfilled, and that they are not bad, or wrong, for being so.

< Message edited by Level -- 7/9/2007 4:17:24 AM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to bandit25)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/9/2007 4:23:39 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Morning Level,

I hope you're doing well and staying cool.  It's HOT here.  And you are spot on.  I agree with everything you and Owned have said.  I agree that not all submissive need rewards in order to feel fulfilled.  I, too, have enjoyed your posts...it's not often that I do anything more than agree with them. 

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/9/2007 4:32:06 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Morning Level,

I hope you're doing well and staying cool.  It's HOT here.  And you are spot on.  I agree with everything you and Owned have said.  I agree that not all submissive need rewards in order to feel fulfilled.  I, too, have enjoyed your posts...it's not often that I do anything more than agree with them. 


It's not hot here (YET ), but we've been deluged with rain for the last several days, keeping things cooler. That's finally changing, so the heat and humidity are on the way!
 
I always appreciate a well-thought out post, whether it agrees with me or not, and yours are always enjoyable, my friend.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to bandit25)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/9/2007 6:53:25 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Speaking in general terms, I dont think service based slaves are rewarded by the service themselves, but by the appreciation of that service. If I ignored the service, payed no attention to it, offered no praise or appreciation and completely took it for granted, then they wont be receiving the fullfillment they get by serving me.

If dominants (not saying you Level, but other posters) want to narrate it that they dont owe anything to the slave for their service or submission, thats fine. Speaking from personal experience and my understanding of service, my opinion is that I am very much obligated to show appreciation and praise for the service being offered if I expect to keep a slave and ensure their own fulfillment.



Thank you MR that's what i was trying to say in my post but you hit it more to the point than i did.  Even a smile can be a form of appreciation, a caress of the hair, etc.  Part of wanting to be pleasing, obeying, and submitting is that you want to see the effect it has - that those you do it for are in fact pleased.  It doesn't lessen what we give.

Rewards are different - they are specific things given to the sub for some kind of task or service. While i don't think a master shouldn't give the sub a rewards if it's something he wants to do, but i don't think a slave should expect a reward.  To expect a reward is like saying "i am doing something up and above what i should be doing, i am going out of my way, you should give me something special for my efforts"  If that's the case then just get a job and have money as your reward. 

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/10/2007 6:58:36 AM   
jaunty1


Posts: 102
Joined: 3/20/2007
Status: offline 		I do not reward melissa for
 
doing something that she enjoys doing
doing something that she believes is her job anyway
doing something that, as part of the agreement we both have, is expected of her in regards to our relationship.
 
However, this does not mean that I don't take her out to eat on occassion; or do something special for her. Not becasue I think she deserves a reward for a job well done, but because I love and I love to see her smile. I do those things because I want to; not because she wants me to.
 
As for punishment; I don't believe in corporal punishment for a wrong doing. Only once have I taken a whip to melissa and that was at the beginning of our relationship. I perfer to sit her down, talk about what happened, find out the reasons behind the behavior; and then go from there.
 
Live well
 
Alex

_____________________________




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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/10/2007 11:27:56 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lk70

So let's pick a random example...let's say your sub/slave prepares a really nice dinner for you and friends or business associates.  Is there any gratitude or is it just that's what she's expected to do? 


Mostly it would be what's expected of me. Not gratitude, per se, but if the meal came out well and his guests were pleased, I'm sure he would mention that he enjoyed it and that, to me, is a great reward.

quote:

Any chance of her getting a nice dinner out as thanks? 


Doubtful and that sort of reward would seem to be frivilous to me when I'm perfectly capable of making a nice dinner for us already. I'd rather just seem him smile and enjoy his food. Getting taken out to dinner 'just because' means much more to me since it comes from the heart and not as some sort of obligatory reward for services rendered. That sort of reward makes me uncomfortable. The 'just because' stuff, though.. that's priceless.

quote:

 Or maybe some sexual favor she enjoys?


Again, doubtful but if I'm in the mood for something specific all I need to do is ask and he will or will not as he determines.

quote:

How do manage your relationship with your sub/slaves?  Is there only discipline, or is there reward too?


He keeps me so he must like having me around. Since I like being around, that's enough for me.

Celeste


_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to lk70)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/10/2007 11:35:12 AM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

Any chance of her getting a nice dinner out as thanks? 


Doubtful and that sort of reward would seem to be frivilous to me when I'm perfectly capable of making a nice dinner for us already. I'd rather just seem him smile and enjoy his food. Getting taken out to dinner 'just because' means much more to me since it comes from the heart and not as some sort of obligatory reward for services rendered. That sort of reward makes me uncomfortable. The 'just because' stuff, though.. that's priceless.

quote:

 Or maybe some sexual favor she enjoys?


Again, doubtful but if I'm in the mood for something specific all I need to do is ask and he will or will not as he determines.



Bita,

I found this interesting. In my marriage I would often feel like a prostitute (in a bad way) by being "paid" for things I did out of love. Is that the kind of feeling you are talking about here? Since I've not been in a collared relationship I still have to fall back on what I've known in the past to understand so I'm not trying to be offensive. You can email me on the otherside if that would be better.

_____________________________

"cooking is my kink"

Collared June 19, 2008
(uncollared 12/21/09 with his death. RIP my Santa)

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/10/2007 11:54:30 AM   
Lewcifer


Posts: 126
Joined: 5/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lk70
How do manage your relationship with your sub/slaves?  Is there only discipline, or is there reward too?


Is there reward, from who's point of view?

What is your definition of reward?

If her reward is not something you define as reward, is it relevant to you?

I manage my relationship with my slave/wife in the way it was negotiated and set forth contractually in writing.


_____________________________

I am fortunate... My wife is also My friend, lover and slave.

(in reply to lk70)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/10/2007 12:32:18 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie


Bita,

I found this interesting. In my marriage I would often feel like a prostitute (in a bad way) by being "paid" for things I did out of love. Is that the kind of feeling you are talking about here?


Yep, you got it exactly. No offense at all.  When I do something from my heart, that truly is a reward in and of itself.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to sublizzie)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Punishment vs reward? - 7/10/2007 3:26:37 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lk70

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43
But he does nice things for me just because he loves me and likes to make me happy, the same way I do it for him. That's what you do when you love someone.


  You're the first person, I think, to mention love.  I was curious about that. 



There are a lot of people who find it difficult to hurt someone they love. That causes problems is s & m people who get involved romantically.

We're not into pain, but into control, bondage and sex.

Beyond that, I wasn't willing to ever again get into a relationship with someone emotionally distant. What I wanted in this relationship was someone with whom I could share my most vulnerable parts and I can't do that with someone who is afraid to share his with me. Unless he loved me back I couldn't have trusted him deep down which I do. If that's what you need, then don't settle for less. Ever.

For me, love was essential. But I don't believe that you can only control those you don't love. I have raised minors and put control on their behaviors, I didn't let them run into traffic afraid to say no because I love them. I have had pets, I don't let them bite and growl the Fed Ex guy, I controlled them because I loved them. I don't see any problem with control and love.

(in reply to lk70)
Profile   Post #: 60
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