wwwkevinww
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Karynn
Hi ya'll,
Okay, here's the deal. A lot of people have love associated to a list of rules or expectations they have for a relationship. It is how you chose a marriage partner perhaps, or a business partner, or a best friend in college whom you told all your favorite secrets. You analyze a person, looking at their ideal qualities and traits, and you decide based on analysis that this person meets with the greatest number of expectations and will naturally follow a certain number of rules. An example might be this. I like this person X-person because she has never used a curse word in my presence. I dislike this Y-person because he always smells funny. Your list of rules and expectations could be everything from the most ridiculous to the most logical.
It's a natural thing. It isn't something to be ashamed about because it is human nature. Some people are very easy going and have few things on their list and some people are maniacal and have hundreds of things on their list. There isn't anything wrong per se with these lists. They're why we consider ourselves safe with people. I wouldn't spend a lot of time with someone who had a violent temper and yelled at me. I couldn't take it. It is self-preservation.
Love though is far more complex and has perplexed the greatest thinkers in all of time like Aristotle and Luther, Pilate and Captain Jack Sparrow. It is a word that both denotes action as a verb and a word that means a state of being. You can actively choose to love as a verb, creating an environment for someone in your life that provides needs. NEEDS is a KEY word here. I'll get back to it. Love also might be such in a saying when you say, "This is my first love." And you're pointing to a picture in a High School year book. One of the participants in this thread have made a point to differenciate between agape love and eros love. They're Greek words that further define the love one shares. For instance, agape love might be brotherly love where eros love would be love that is both sexual and often related to a personal intimacy with another person. There was even implication that a human was only able to love with eros love if there was a solitary recipient of this love but when demonstrating agape love, then that love could be shared with many. Polygamy then, with a sense of eros love trying to share with more than one recipient is impossible by his standards, but having three children and loving them, or three friends in college that you road trip with every weekend is not at all difficult, as you have a far better capacity for such love. I personally find this ridiculous and think that the Greeks would agree, though they are all dead, so I'll have to suppose on my own that I am correct.
Now, we're in a lifestyle that is about power. Power comes in many forms, but the way power is exhibited in human nature is rather simply defined. You have power over another human when you can force, instigate, inspire, make, ignite, decide - and the list of verbs here is endless - the other person to do what you wish. You might be their boss and you have the power to make them come to work at 8 a.m. daily. You have the power to assign projects and deadlines. That is power. When we speak of power, we tend to mean personal power to inspire those in our lives that are associated to intimacy and that agape love. It isn't about a business engagement but a personal exchange of power that thrills and inspires both the person being manipulated and the person doing the manipulation.
If love is involved in this relationship, this agape love that is all encompassing, all giving, all supporting, it is a positive thing. If this eros love is in this relationship, it too is a good and wonderful thing. Again, I believe you can share eros love with partner(s) throughout your lifetime and if you disagree, then talk to Solomon. He had 700 wives and was considered the wisest man who ever lived, and you betcha socks the relationships of that time period were primarily power exchanges!
When is love a negative then within Authority Dynamics? This goes back to the original post and sincerely can and should be a topic considered with great validity and intensity before settling into an M/s relationship of any kind. The thrill, the tingle if you will, that comes from power exchange, from the person doing the manipulation and the person allowing it, exists because of a choice both make before they act. A choice must be made definitively, with the greatest of thought, and once a choice is made it has to be the most solid thing that exists between the two. If there is some wavering on either part, the tingle and thrill is diluted or simply ceases to exist. It is natural at times for there to be some conflict and need for conflict resolution in power exchange relationships. It is true that we're all human and no power exchange is perfectly balanced at all times. A rough day at the office might make the ability of a dominant to maintain that ultra tight control he uses and thrives on, and also creates an environment that his submissive thrives in as well. A really bad head cold might make a male submissive unable to really connect to that dominant woman in his life. Yes, there are things that interrupt power exchange. But how does love interrupt power exchange? It is misunderstood.
Love becomes a stumbling block when a submissive seeks validation or even power in a given setting through the use of the word or action "Love." It goes something like this. A Mistress comes home, carrying a whole cheesecake. She's been working on the concepts of deprivation with her submissive male for weeks, and has a special occassion planned for the evening. There is a bit of wine, some good food, and the cheesecake. He has dinner with her, and then she calls him to her feet for dessert. He absolutely puts cheesecake at the top of his list of favorite foods and she knows it well. At her feet, he watches as she slices a portion of cheesecake. It is teasingly held just beyond his reach, then she eats a bite. The process continues, till the slice is gone. She's pet him, or perhaps had him attending her needs, a foot massage or a bit of sexual energy exchanged. As dinner ends, she rises and puts the cheesecake in the refridgerator. He's never been given even a small taste. Deprivation. He looks at her forlornly and says, or thinks, "If you loved me, you'd let me have a bite." Wait!! When did love mean this? See? If love is used as leverage somehow, for manipulation from the bottom or the top, in a way that detracts from the power exchange, then love is a negative and does not have a place in the Authority Dynamic.
It isn't that love should be removed. It certainly does have a place for some in some M/s relationships. It also doesn't have to exist for there to be power exchange. The thrill and tingle that I mentioned can be as full of lust and the moment as any sexual appetite might be met without love. There can be fulfillment of both parties in a loveless M/s relationship if that is what they both seek. There can also be deep love shared, agape love or eros, in M/s if both are aware of what it is and how it can be misunderstood or misused. If love is something that is a choice, it can be chosen to be shared with one partner, or with many. If power is something that is a choice, it too can be shared with one partner or many.
We are the adults making the rational choices. There is a difference between wants and needs. A long term M/s relationship would do well to have love invested, for a loving person would choose to meet the needs of another person. Love never means a forced expectation of meeting wants. That's the gap that often becomes a trap.
I hope you find your evening pleasant,
Me
You are repeating alot of what I was saying, and its hard to argue with myself...of course alot of what you're saying is valid. Using Love as an excuse to cause a power struggle in your cheesecake example is not healthy to the relationship, whether D/S or not....
You use the word manipulation, I'm not sure if I used this word, but persuasion or coercion is better....manipulation implies tricking someone into something and really your being pretty overt about it.....
Wants and Needs is obvious to most adults(mundane).....I find it interesting that the I don't care dynamic of a power struggle would affect the cheesecake thing your trying to teach, if you have a submissive who just detached themselves form the cheesecake, and instead enjoyed the smell and what he could get, and enjoyed the fact that you enjoyed the cheesecake, and still did what you wanted by kneeling at your feet etc....who is teaching who? Its much more subtle, but sometimes its not so simplistic to those who are creative in their resistance to you.....
I've heard of breaking the will of a slave, and I think to myself, do you really want a slave that has no will, or would it be better to have them able to reach subspace and feel safe because of the love you share, your open and honest, and there are no power struggles or hidden guards up........
In a loving BDSM relationship, how much do you really enjoy yelling or power struggles, how much are you really open and honest with each other....and often someone is open and honest, tells you about themselves, and its hard to accept it, because it goes against your initial thoughts or feelings on the subject matter......
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RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 
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