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RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/11/2007 12:32:29 PM   
Sub03


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Joined: 4/30/2005
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I can't believe I just read this whole thing......

I'm going to stay out of the idiocy with wwwkevinww, I don't think his replies are worth my time.

To KoM that was a very beautiful post, your girls are lucky to have someone that loves them so deeply, your love for your girls and their love for you has always come across in the message boards. And this thread definitely proves, at least to me, that love does exist out there. I'm just beginning to discover that love with my Master, who I love so much already.

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owned by painarranger

I am His loyal slave

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/11/2007 12:50:49 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

If it had been from the other thread I wouldn't have quoted it or answered it here.


oops am I red.... getting the two threads mixed up... shouldn't be surprizing... I keep getting Kyra and Alandra mixed up too


No hurt, no foul...:)

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/13/2007 1:40:23 PM   
lilsubl


Posts: 4595
Joined: 2/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

quote:

I shared your reservation about a D/s existing in the long-term without love.  But, of late.. I have been formulatings thoughts that might make it possible but highly unlikely.  It is also dependent on how a person defines love.  There is much more thought yet to come on this subject.  But, I am resolved to open my mind to the possibility... even thou.. I myself would never have a power dynamic of that type.


What defines long term? We are over 7 years, just got married and he doesn't define how he feels about me as love. He cares for me deeply and I love him. I guess he could of kicked me to the curb because he didn't fall in love with me but I for one am very happy that "deeply caring" for me is enough for him. When people say they never would have a power dynamic of that type..I wonder what is the cut off number of months you spend with a person before you decide to cut them loose because you don't love them or they don't love you? Before we knew it 3-4 years had sped by in what is an incredible relationship to both of us and to my kiddo...Neither of us wanted to walk away back then, it wasn't even really thinkable. Since then that feeling has only grown on both out parts. You don't walk away from the person and home you have waited your whole life for. I'll probably never hear him say "I love you"...you don't throw away people or relationships that are healthy, happy, productive, and intimate over it.


wow!!  thank you for this...i love Master with all my being & always will...He has told me repeatedly & from the very first moment that we met, that He doesn't "love"...but He does care deeply for me & in His caring, i feel more loved than i ever have by anyone else, even the ones who were able to say "I love you" to me & mean it...i trust Him completely to always keep my best interest at the forefront when making decisions about & for me...i know that He will never intentionally harm me, physically, emotionally or psychicly...although He doesn't call it love, many others would...

i always thought that i couldn't possibly be with someone who didn't return love to me, but i was wrong...it's not romantic love that we feel for each other, but it is deep & lasting...the OP spoke deeply to me, because this is how this love i feel for Master has been growing...we are not sexually exclusive with each other, but this doesn't in any way affect the feelings that we have for each other...

i have enjoyed reading this thread & keep returning & copying & saving some of the posts that have touched me so that i may refer to them later...i have only loved 2 before Master & i still love both of them...i have had feelings for others with whom i had relationships, but not what i define as love for me...for me, love is caring for someone so completely that their happiness is paramount...if His happiness would be better achieved by His releasing me, i would gladly be released....luckily, He believes that His happiness is best achieved by continuing to own me  


_____________________________

Linea, collarded pet of the evil Sir Max & his lovely & equally evil wife


it's no fun unless you're scared

if you can't be brave, be determined & you'll get to the same place

wannabe member of the subbi mafia

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/13/2007 6:24:30 PM   
wwwkevinww


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Joined: 7/15/2004
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"I personally believe that human emotion is beyond setting everything in nice neat little boxes.  And emotions are really above qualifying and quantifying, in my own personal opinion.  Maybe that is why I've never cared for psychology; give me anthropology any day.  And I'm sure many agree with me.  And sharing one's feelings in regards to a matter, even if it's been said before by some random stranger, is not plagiarism.  "

lapresence said this...you don't like psychology, you are ruled by your emotion, you don' want to be logical (logical as in things put in "nice neat boxes").  You prefer anthropology to psychology....peer reviews?  You haven't really read what I said, a fact is a fact whether people realize it or not....earth is flat, people might like to debate it, not believe it, or whatever, but the earth is flat.  its a fact.  lol  or is the earth round....you get my point, its not debatable....it doesn't matter what you believe....

what I stated as a fact no one has disproven.  Alot of women think emotions are more important than thinking, and aren't that logical.  Caring more about how something is said that what is actually being said.

Its pointless to argue logic with someone who is illogical.....

< Message edited by wwwkevinww -- 7/13/2007 6:31:08 PM >

(in reply to lapresence)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/13/2007 6:30:12 PM   
wwwkevinww


Posts: 276
Joined: 7/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sub03

I can't believe I just read this whole thing......

I'm going to stay out of the idiocy with wwwkevinww, I don't think his replies are worth my time.

To KoM that was a very beautiful post, your girls are lucky to have someone that loves them so deeply, your love for your girls and their love for you has always come across in the message boards. And this thread definitely proves, at least to me, that love does exist out there. I'm just beginning to discover that love with my Master, who I love so much already.


so you call me idiotic, and say my replies aren't worth your time, yet you read the entire thing and commented on it?  I'm st ill trying to get my head around this one...

You cannot believe you read thru the entire thing, so you were captivated....then you say you don't want to reply but reply anyhows....

that is equivelant of me saying I don't know what to tell you and then telling you exactly what I think.  I think you just tried to oxymoron me.  lol

I know there is some rational people somewhere on these boards....ISO

(in reply to Sub03)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/13/2007 6:39:50 PM   
wwwkevinww


Posts: 276
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Henry FORD II said Never Complain.  Never Explain.

I think I'm coming to realize why there is no point to explaining....

I'd like to start the next part of this post complaining.....(joking)

(in reply to wwwkevinww)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/13/2007 6:53:37 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sub03

I can't believe I just read this whole thing......

I'm going to stay out of the idiocy with wwwkevinww, I don't think his replies are worth my time.

To KoM that was a very beautiful post, your girls are lucky to have someone that loves them so deeply, your love for your girls and their love for you has always come across in the message boards. And this thread definitely proves, at least to me, that love does exist out there. I'm just beginning to discover that love with my Master, who I love so much already.


so you call me idiotic, and say my replies aren't worth your time, yet you read the entire thing and commented on it?  I'm st ill trying to get my head around this one...

You cannot believe you read thru the entire thing, so you were captivated....then you say you don't want to reply but reply anyhows....

that is equivelant of me saying I don't know what to tell you and then telling you exactly what I think.  I think you just tried to oxymoron me.  lol

I know there is some rational people somewhere on these boards....ISO

OK.  You are absolutely right.  Everyone else here who writes with eloquence, articulation and keen insight, is totally wrong.
Thank you so much kevin for showing all of us how ignorant we have been. 
 
With these kind of manly, virile posts, in addition to your amazing profile where you write "I feel the majority of women are naturally submissive."
I just  feel so, well, submissive to you.  I would just love to stride into a room where you stand waiting, kneel at your feet, undo your pants...
and use you as a practice dummy for cruel and new CBT techniques .
How's all this working out for you dude?  Meeting hot chicks?  Getting laid?  Making any friends at all? 
I mean c'mon.  If you were at least articulate and well spoken you might have half a chance, but you can't seem to thread two sentences together in a coherent fashion..
Please, for all our sakes but especially yours, just apologize to KOM for hijacking his thread and move on..

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to wwwkevinww)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/13/2007 7:02:18 PM   
wwwkevinww


Posts: 276
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sub03

I can't believe I just read this whole thing......

I'm going to stay out of the idiocy with wwwkevinww, I don't think his replies are worth my time.

To KoM that was a very beautiful post, your girls are lucky to have someone that loves them so deeply, your love for your girls and their love for you has always come across in the message boards. And this thread definitely proves, at least to me, that love does exist out there. I'm just beginning to discover that love with my Master, who I love so much already.


so you call me idiotic, and say my replies aren't worth your time, yet you read the entire thing and commented on it?  I'm st ill trying to get my head around this one...

You cannot believe you read thru the entire thing, so you were captivated....then you say you don't want to reply but reply anyhows....

that is equivelant of me saying I don't know what to tell you and then telling you exactly what I think.  I think you just tried to oxymoron me.  lol

I know there is some rational people somewhere on these boards....ISO

OK.  You are absolutely right.  Everyone else here who writes with eloquence, articulation and keen insight, is totally wrong.
Thank you so much kevin for showing all of us how ignorant we have been. 
 
With these kind of manly, virile posts, in addition to your amazing profile where you write "I feel the majority of women are naturally submissive."
I just  feel so, well, submissive to you.  I would just love to stride into a room where you stand waiting, kneel at your feet, undo your pants...
and use you as a practice dummy for cruel and new CBT techniques .
How's all this working out for you dude?  Meeting hot chicks?  Getting laid?  Making any friends at all? 
I mean c'mon.  If you were at least articulate and well spoken you might have half a chance, but you can't seem to thread two sentences together in a coherent fashion..
Please, for all our sakes but especially yours, just apologize to KOM for hijacking his thread and move on..


eyes glaze over, cannot put two sentences together....starts to drool....

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/13/2007 7:14:18 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sub03

I can't believe I just read this whole thing......

I'm going to stay out of the idiocy with wwwkevinww, I don't think his replies are worth my time.

To KoM that was a very beautiful post, your girls are lucky to have someone that loves them so deeply, your love for your girls and their love for you has always come across in the message boards. And this thread definitely proves, at least to me, that love does exist out there. I'm just beginning to discover that love with my Master, who I love so much already.


so you call me idiotic, and say my replies aren't worth your time, yet you read the entire thing and commented on it?  I'm st ill trying to get my head around this one...

You cannot believe you read thru the entire thing, so you were captivated....then you say you don't want to reply but reply anyhows....

that is equivelant of me saying I don't know what to tell you and then telling you exactly what I think.  I think you just tried to oxymoron me.  lol

I know there is some rational people somewhere on these boards....ISO

OK.  You are absolutely right.  Everyone else here who writes with eloquence, articulation and keen insight, is totally wrong.
Thank you so much kevin for showing all of us how ignorant we have been. 
 
With these kind of manly, virile posts, in addition to your amazing profile where you write "I feel the majority of women are naturally submissive."
I just  feel so, well, submissive to you.  I would just love to stride into a room where you stand waiting, kneel at your feet, undo your pants...
and use you as a practice dummy for cruel and new CBT techniques .
How's all this working out for you dude?  Meeting hot chicks?  Getting laid?  Making any friends at all? 
I mean c'mon.  If you were at least articulate and well spoken you might have half a chance, but you can't seem to thread two sentences together in a coherent fashion..
Please, for all our sakes but especially yours, just apologize to KOM for hijacking his thread and move on..


eyes glaze over, cannot put two sentences together....starts to drool....


I have that affect on lots of men and women.. Not only am I taken, but I'm in the Majors and you are still in a practice league..

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to wwwkevinww)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/13/2007 7:45:45 PM   
wwwkevinww


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Joined: 7/15/2004
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Bossyshoebitch, you asked me if I met any hot women, not yet.....at least not recently.

::looks past bossyshoebitch::

sarcasm is lost on the idiotic....

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/13/2007 10:11:39 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Kevin,

Sorry you haven't met any hot women recently, what's that like?

(in reply to wwwkevinww)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/13/2007 11:06:29 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Michael that's SO not the road you want to take here- I can pull out a few choice threads of your own where you blamed your behavior on lack of amor as well as a few angry "Why can't I find someone" pieces.

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/14/2007 4:07:52 AM   
julietsierra


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Joined: 9/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Michael that's SO not the road you want to take here- I can pull out a few choice threads of your own where you blamed your behavior on lack of amor as well as a few angry "Why can't I find someone" pieces.


lol... and LA - the queen of the search function - is not someone to be trifled with!!

juliet

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/14/2007 5:44:29 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Michael that's SO not the road you want to take here- I can pull out a few choice threads of your own where you blamed your behavior on lack of amor as well as a few angry "Why can't I find someone" pieces.


However...for the sake of fairness...we can safely conclude after many of Michael's posts that he is in fact not a virgin and has been with hot women (Using "hot" in the subjective relative sense with respect to all the women who might not classify themselves as "hot").

The jury is still out on this guy.



_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/14/2007 6:06:29 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww

lapresence said this...you don't like psychology, you are ruled by your emotion, you don' want to be logical (logical as in things put in "nice neat boxes").  You prefer anthropology to psychology....peer reviews?  You haven't really read what I said, a fact is a fact whether people realize it or not....earth is flat, people might like to debate it, not believe it, or whatever, but the earth is flat.  its a fact.  lol  or is the earth round....you get my point, its not debatable....it doesn't matter what you believe....

what I stated as a fact no one has disproven.  Alot of women think emotions are more important than thinking, and aren't that logical.  Caring more about how something is said that what is actually being said.

Its pointless to argue logic with someone who is illogical.....


Yeah, it is! So perhaps thats why we are not argueing with you.

The fact of the matter is a lot of what you are saying here has been disapproven by common experiences shared by many people here and experiences and understanding of polygamous dynamics...clearly something you are lacking.

The facts you have presented here about love are in fact, not facts...merely theory and tid bits of folk wisdom from people who have had some shared experiences.

Love is an emotion. How people process, feal, and understand love changes from person to person. There is no universal fact like "The world is flat" that applies to how everyone experiences and processes this emotion.

It is an emotion that in itself is illogical and therefore trying to create logical models for how it works is an entirely flawed premise. Its the same as trying to create a logical and linear model for a system like the weather that works off chaos like you would for a system like a coffee maker that works off order.

Further more, the whole basis of your arguments against KoM's relationship is flawed logic You are essentially equating love to that of the power of a car battery. Limited and confined by law...the more power you give towards one thing, the less that is left for someone else. That somehow the love one feals for one person is diminished because of the less amount of time they have to spend with someone else.

The "scientific fact" you are presenting is essentially the intensity of the emotion is linked to the amount of time a person spends with a person.

Wow....how fucking genius....amazing...

Gee...apparently when I had to work two jobs and I couldnt spend time with my ex girlfriend in the past, the way I felt towards her drastically changed. That somehow because I was devoting my energy to other things that I actually loved her less. That if she had called me at work and told me she seriously needed me, I wont have dropped what I was doing and went to be with her out of my love for her like I would have if I had been spending all my time with her.

Wow...apparently...all this time, when my father and mother chose to have two more children, the amount they loved me was drastically reduced by 66%. I guess that explains why they didnt pay for college.

Apparently, because I only get to see my father once every week as opposed to everyday when we lived together, the amount of love I feal for him is somehow less. That I wont go out in the pouring rain at 3am to change his tire because I love him less.

If somehow the intensity of the emotion was somehow linked to time spent, then what about the folk wisdom regarding the shared experience of "Absence makes the heart grow yonder."?

You ever consider that maybe this so called fact that a man cannot share eros love with two women is a belief stemming from social contigencies toward monogamy, our own twisted perspectives regarding viewing lovers as possesions, and our fealings of jealousy?

Maybe you are so horribly insecure that you trully believe that your girlfriend cannot have romantic love with another man without still loving you just the same...doesnt mean everyone else doesnt.

Many arguments have been presented here that completely diffuse what you are saying and these arguments are based on shared and common experiences that tell us you are in fact WRONG. I dont need to present scientific documentation that a knife will most likely cut my skin if used on my arm because its a shared, common experience that everyone knows and understands.

Unfortanely, you have your head so far up your ass that you are failing to realize that you are the one who is wrong and not everyone else who has posted to this thread.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to wwwkevinww)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/14/2007 6:12:35 AM   
subtlesilver


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"if you really really care, look up facts regarding our best understanding of romantic love, and tell me with reputable psychologists with page numbers and books that the facts I have stated are false....because the facts I have stated are the basic facts of a news article I had regarding love I had posted on my wall in my bedroom for a number"
 
as above give me your references, my opinions are my own and need no validation by statistic.
 
Currently i am "in love" with my master and the feeling is reciprocated..... hearts and flowers and the emotional sugar rush. The heady euphoria may diminish, if we are lucky it will stay, but more importantly we love each other, that is deep and getting much deeper. We care on a daily basis about the needs of the other and try to meet them. We work at developing an understanding of each other. There are no "normal", expected, stages to go through the emotion changes with each interchange.
 
Do i love other people in this way, well yes i do. i remember when my children were babies, it was another emotional rush, that changed over time, they are nearly ready to leave home now. i love them in different ways each day depending on their and my needs, but all of it is underpinned by a steady, constant, bedrock of love.
 
i suspect that wwwkevinww might have had a better response if he had clearly defined what he meant by love, romantic love, etc, etc. i only differentiate between being "in love" and experiencing "love".

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my mind tries to understand
my body just accepts

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RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/14/2007 6:13:52 AM   
KatyLied


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I want to say "thank you" to those who posted about being in relationships with masters who do not love them.  I have tried to wrap my mind around this concept and just can't do it.  I've been in two relationships where I have been told there will never be love.  Affection and caring, yes, love, nope.  I just could not find a way to continue in these relationships, knowing that the other person would always be looking for someone better than me, even though I feel that I give all I can in a relationship.  I always felt very untethered in those relationships and I am a person who craves security.  I think a big part of me is still residing in that all or nothing, black or white place and I can't understand how it feels to live in shades of gray.  Anyway, thank you for your input as this is something I am interested in learning about.

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(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/14/2007 6:41:06 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
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From: South Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww

Bossyshoebitch, you asked me if I met any hot women, not yet.....at least not recently.

::looks past bossyshoebitch::

sarcasm is lost on the idiotic....

Yes kevin, it certainly is....

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to wwwkevinww)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/14/2007 12:52:43 PM   
yrstocollar


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Joined: 8/14/2006
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Dear Kevin...

I'm torn between laughing and crying between the inconsistencies and general incoherence of your "arguments", "statistics", "references" and "facts"... you have given me far too many potential quotes to refute that by this stage I can't even be bothered picking them. I'm fairly sure you won't fully read what I've written but will go back into passive-aggressive "victim" mode if you've calmed down a bit, or if you haven't, you'll be all aggressive again and start calling me names. Go right ahead if it makes you feel better.

Why am I bothering then? Well... there were many many things I wanted to comment on but this is something nobody else has really touched on and I am writing it in the hopes that maybe you'll take what I have to say and use it to grow. 

So here goes... I fully respect that you have different experiences, ideas, beliefs etc. than myself but I feel somewhat agrieved by your use of psychology to support these.You seem to have a genuine interest in psychology which is fantastic! You'll find that many people on CM also share this interest with a passion and know a great deal about it. While some others, myself included, work in the field. I'm not putting myself as an expert here by the way, just giving some background on myself and a small explanation for why I feel moved to write this.

Can I suggest that if you really want to expand upon your understanding of psychology and broaden your education that you enrol in a well-respected tertiary institution in order to do so.

One of the first things they will teach you in the sciences (hard, soft or totally flacid by this stage) is that you start with a null hypothesis... ie the opposite of of what you hope to prove... and then you disprove this. This is because it only takes 1 experiment to later disprove your experiment. Then when you have written up your experiment / case study / thesis etc. you can say that you have supported your hypothesis or disproved the null hypothesis... they completely stay away from the word "fact" at all because the concept of "facts" (particularly as you have been using them) are so easy to disprove... so they use words like "supported" and "theory".

Another benefit of going to a reputable institution is you will be exposed to well-informed psychologists and teachers who will in turn give you access to references which are acutally worth quoting. Considerable information and alleged "facts" are available in the newspaper, online and in pop-psychology books but they are generally not considered worthy references by University standards. I'm not saying that information from these sources isn't useful and beneficial to us at times, but if you're trying to debate a point, particularly if you're trying to be seen as some kind of well-educated expert, you will be able to put forward your debate in a more logical and impressive manner if you apply these standards.

Another thing you will learn... usually by about third year... is how to read, understand, use and critique experiments and case studies. Now I don't expect you to get a lot of this straight away, but at a basic level you will learn: there is no point in throwing around statistics and saying this "proves" your point. This comes back to my original point. There is also very little benefit on relying on one study or source... particularly if this study has a very small sample size. A sample size of 17 is small, it leaves the experiment open to bias and weakens the validity of any argument you make using this material. This would probably not be considered a useful reference for anyone writing any kind of psych paper, particularly in isolation, the best that could possibly come from such a small sample size would be a comment along the lines of "this indicates a need for further research". Then you get into being able to replicate the experiment and how you selected your subjects... oh I could go on!

Basically I wanted to encourage you to pursue your obvious interest in psychology using respected teachers, mentors, sources etc. as this will help you avoid such flaming as you've just experienced and is a great avenue for education and growth.

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Love within Authority Dynamics - 7/16/2007 2:37:56 PM   
wwwkevinww


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Yrstocollar, nice pic, its nice to see two hot women kissing.  :)  what your saying has merit, but I'm not interested in furthering my education at this time.  I already have a bachelor of science in comp info systems.  If I was going to further my education, I'd either get a masters in psychology or management....

telling me that I'm wrong or to look up info doesn't disprove what I said.  I actually bothered to quote a bunch of articles....do a search for romantic love 18 months on these boards...I'm too lazy to link.  lol

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1149811/tm.htm - okay, I'm not that lazy.   Shoot me.  ;/

< Message edited by wwwkevinww -- 7/16/2007 2:39:19 PM >

(in reply to yrstocollar)
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