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RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 9:08:06 AM

jaunty1

Posts: 102
Joined: 3/20/2007
Status: offline

I realize that your question was more geared towards the submissive/slave's here, but I really wanted to touch on it from the opposite side.

Melissa has very strong; and sometimes opposing, views of what is right and what is wrong. Not to mention that she is not shy about voicing them when the occassion comes around. This is something that I truly admire about her; her ability and eagerness to stand up and remain standing for what she believes in.

If she were to do something, simply because I requested it of her; that went against her core beliefs; I would lose what respect I had for her. Obedience is not about following orders. It's about listening to the request, weighing out the pro's and con's, deciding whether it is something YOU can live with or not, and then doing one of two things. Either obeying and accepting the responsibility that comes with agreement; or choosing to respectfully question the request and then moving forward from there.

Also, I want to say that if ever I was to request that she do something that went against her core beliefs; I would be breaking the agreement that we have had since the beginning. Since I have no desire to lose her, I would never place her in such a situation of having to choose between obedience and her own ethics.

Live well

Alex

_____________________________

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 41

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 9:33:13 AM

slaverosebeauty

Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie
If you are in a relationship where you disagree with the Dominant, how would you handle it if they were to decide that you were to work a booth for an event touting the glories of their particular viewpoint? (ie, working a booth for the NRA if you're against guns, or stumping for a political candidate they love and you hate, etc)

I would handle it the best way I know avoidance as much as possible. I have my ethics and morals and MJ has His, I don't see Him ever asking me to compermise those things about me and about who I am. If I was at a venue like you describe above, I would bite my toung and say that I was there on my partners request and that I have views that are my own, in te most basic and simplest of terms if I was FORCED to go, otherwise, I would stay home. I am a firm believer in NOT forcing a bottom-type to do something that is against their own personal ethics and beleifs just because of appearances.

quote:

I'm sure there are some here who would probably do it whole-heartedly. I'm not sure I could though I haven't been in that situation to know one way or the other. How would this work in your particular relationship dynamic?

With MJ an I , from the amount of time we have spent together and how well we know eachother, I will venture to guess that He would respect my beliefs and NOT make e go to an event like above unless I was ont he fense or agreeded. If it was a black tie hting and He was required to have an escort for the evening, I would smile, put on my dress, heels, and best face I could while at the same time plotting against Him {how much of that is a joke and how much is not, I will leave up to you}.

I don't believe in blind submission or obediance without conscious and respect. MJ has things on His profile that when I look at them I remember our old arguments about those things and about how pissed I was at Him for them and how many arguments we have had over them [He has not updated His profile in a long time.. He promised to add a few pics though just for me]; yet, after knowing MJ for this long, He an I have a new level of respect for eachother and the other person's views and how we interpret something. I don't see MJ ever putting me in a sitation where my personal beliefs were challenged or compermised; thats NOT a healthy relationship.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 42

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 9:48:14 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

If you are in a relationship where you disagree with the Dominant, how would you handle it if they were to decide that you were to work a booth for an event touting the glories of their particular viewpoint? (ie, working a booth for the NRA if you're against guns, or stumping for a political candidate they love and you hate, etc)

I'm sure there are some here who would probably do it whole-heartedly. I'm not sure I could though I haven't been in that situation to know one way or the other. How would this work in your particular relationship dynamic?

For me, this boils down to what is the most important to me .. a cause about which I may be passionate vs being true to myself and my word. I gave my word to obey Himself first when he collared me, then during our wedding vows. Before giving that word, before being collared and before putting myself into a situation where I would have to make a choice between a cause and the truth of myself I made damn sure that Himself was the right man for me. That said, such choices became moot for me. If he told me to do something, I'd do it knowing there was a reason he told me to do so. The reason is irrelevant to me, the action of obedience to his will is all that matters and anything less than that means that I've not been honest with him or with myself nor am I the submissive slave that I think I am to him. Cliche, true, but it's easy to obey when you are in complete agreement.. not so easy when you question the decision of the person whom you call Master or Mistress. If I want a relationship where I second guess and make the decisions and choices for myself at this point, where I can say no without consequence, I'll go to the other side and call myself vanilla.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 43

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 9:52:04 AM

laineyjade

Posts: 56
Joined: 6/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

If you are in a relationship where you disagree with the Dominant, how would you handle it if they were to decide that you were to work a booth for an event touting the glories of their particular viewpoint? (ie, working a booth for the NRA if you're against guns, or stumping for a political candidate they love and you hate, etc)

I guess I would grit my teeth and do it for him, after explaining how much it disturbed me. But I can't imagine that he would think so little of my feelings that he's use me to promote propoganda that I found hateful. If this sort of thing happened frequently, I would have to conclude that either we were incompatible enough to not need to be together, or that he was selfish and we didn't need to be together.

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 44

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 9:59:36 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
If I want a relationship where I second guess and make the decisions and choices for myself at this point, where I can say no without consequence, I'll go to the other side and call myself vanilla.

Celeste

Well vanillas don't get that luxury either, we/they just don't have the SAME sorts of consequences :)

I think the question is "What do you do when two core beliefs contradict eachother?" If you have committed to being true to yourself, gone into a relationship in which your master respects and expects that commitment to self, and THEN orders you to do something that directly interferes with your commitment to self, what's the next step?

It obviously means the master has decided to change the priorities of valuing your commitment to self OR doesn't know that it interferes with your commitment to self OR something is going on that you don't know about.

This is where that handy communication thing comes into play. Ideally, the slave would get to ASK which of those was going on. Masters aren't perfect, I can seriously see a master giving an order and not realizing exactly what the consequences would be, needing to be informed and reminded by the slave, and THEN the master making the choice with more information.

You and your husband have pretty much been through those fires already so it's really less likely to be necessary (still possible) but you still had to go through them.

As I said in the beginning- ultimately you do it or you don't. But only a dumbass or a weird life ending moment of necessary deception would simply tell a slave to counteract the priorities they have communicated as important at an instant.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 45

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 10:16:24 AM

SlND3R3LLA

Posts: 118
Joined: 6/19/2007
Status: offline

I showed this thread to Master last night along with my answers to it, and he totally agreed. He said that he wouldn't want me to go against my core values for him, or anyone else. They make up the person I am, and that person is the one that he chose to serve him, and he fell in love with. If I were to compromise those, I wouldn't be that person anymore.

Now you can see why I love him so very much.

~sin, Masters adoring slave

_____________________________

And in that moment, everything I knew to be true about myself up until then was gone. I was acting like another woman, yet I was more myself than ever before. ~F

To hell with diamonds, lube is a girls best friend ;)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 46

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 10:30:18 AM

PapiNsweet

Posts: 36
Joined: 10/12/2005
Status: offline

for me (and i'm sure many other slaves) being true to myself means respecting the commitment i made to my Master as his property, and that commitment includes unquestioned, unhesitating obedience always, no exceptions. to fail to do so would truly be immoral, and contrary to my values as a slave.

this does not mean that i must agree with my Master on all things, or that he even wishes to change my core beliefs on every issue to mirror his own. it simply means that my respect for my Master and my commitment as a slave far override any personal, free-thinking beliefs/opinions/etc. i agree with Bita in that if i want the freedom and ability to disobey or go my own way when things truly get tough, then i might as well call myself vanilla, no frills.

-daddysprop247

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 47

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 10:30:31 AM

SweetAndInnocent

Posts: 59
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlND3R3LLA

I wouldn't disobey, but I would talk to him about it and find out why he feels I should do it. If it's something that means that much to me, there is no way I could "help" the other side, it's just not in me even for his amusement.

That, to me, ~is~ disobedience. It is your will opposing his.

Forget for a moment that "he would never do that to you." IF this is his request, (if I were a Dom I would choose a hot button and not something you were lukewarm about because then what's the point??) DO you disobey?

Is anyone being harmed? Nope. Is your psyche so fragile as to not be able to handle it? God, I hope not. Does he want you to change your opinion? (Let's assume for this example that the answer is no.) He simply wants you to ~do~ something. Period. That's all. Don't think about it, don't analyze it, just DO it. There is something very freeing in such tasks, believe me. As M says ... "How far are you willing to go for me?"

It is difficult to wrap my head around the idea that if a sub or slave would refuse to do a task that is neither physically harmful nor emotionally damaging on the basis that she doesn't "agree" with it.

I am sure others have already responded to this, since I am coming in late and have not read the whole thread yet, but I disagree passionately with you on this statement. If Sir were to ask me to actively participate in certain issues, that go against my core being, it would be incredibly emotionally damaging to me. Of course, for me its' not an issue at all, because I believe LA is the one who pointed it out. It's all about compatibility. I would never submit to someone who didn't share my core beliefs.

(in reply to slaveish)

Post #: 48

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 10:37:41 AM

SweetAndInnocent

Posts: 59
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthycouple

I can not fathom asking (no less telling or making) Robert to do something I know he is so strongly opposed. I suppose an example for the two of us would be if I expected him to rally against something military. He is a retired career Marine and for me to suddenly make him voice opposition to being military would seem so inherently wrong for me (no matter what my belief). Just as I would not expect him to ask or beg me to tout something he knows I am against.

For me it is as simple as knowing your partner and giving a damn about how they feel. Picking battles with partners is important and to me something like this is "hoop jumping" and simply a show for a dominant to say "I made my slave do X,Y and Z so ha...what can you make yours do?" I don't play those games.

Earthy,
Thank you so much for this response from the flip side. I always enjoy your posts. They seem to align so well with the relationship Sir and I have. His feelings on this topic match yours exactly.

(in reply to earthycouple)

Post #: 49

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 10:41:00 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

For me, this boils down to what is the most important to me .. a cause about which I may be passionate vs being true to myself and my word. I gave my word to obey Himself first when he collared me, then during our wedding vows. Before giving that word, before being collared and before putting myself into a situation where I would have to make a choice between a cause and the truth of myself I made damn sure that Himself was the right man for me. That said, such choices became moot for me. If he told me to do something, I'd do it knowing there was a reason he told me to do so. The reason is irrelevant to me, the action of obedience to his will is all that matters and anything less than that means that I've not been honest with him or with myself nor am I the submissive slave that I think I am to him. Cliche, true, but it's easy to obey when you are in complete agreement.. not so easy when you question the decision of the person whom you call Master or Mistress. If I want a relationship where I second guess and make the decisions and choices for myself at this point, where I can say no without consequence, I'll go to the other side and call myself vanilla.

Celeste

Very well put, and more eloquent than I stated it in my rushed post!

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 50

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 11:29:28 AM

Casie

Posts: 450
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

Another thread is discussing opinions and the ways to disagree within a D/s relationship. It brought a slightly different question to my mind.

If you are in a relationship where you disagree with the Dominant, how would you handle it if they were to decide that you were to work a booth for an event touting the glories of their particular viewpoint? (ie, working a booth for the NRA if you're against guns, or stumping for a political candidate they love and you hate, etc)

I'm sure there are some here who would probably do it whole-heartedly. I'm not sure I could though I haven't been in that situation to know one way or the other. How would this work in your particular relationship dynamic?

Luckily we have the same outlooks on things like that. And if they aren't exacally the same they are simular enough to ot cause problems. Though he would never ask me to do something completely againt what I believe,

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 51

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 12:11:57 PM

slaveish

Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetAndInnocent

I am sure others have already responded to this, since I am coming in late and have not read the whole thread yet, but I disagree passionately with you on this statement. If Sir were to ask me to actively participate in certain issues, that go against my core being, it would be incredibly emotionally damaging to me. Of course, for me its' not an issue at all, because I believe LA is the one who pointed it out. It's all about compatibility. I would never submit to someone who didn't share my core beliefs.

Bingo.

My Sir knew that my curiosity would allow me to see past my own presdisposed notions of "right" and "wrong". Therefore, he would stretch my mind, even if he was playing devil's advocate to do it. Say, for example, we agreed on the woman's right to choose abortion. (I can see this in my mind so very well - just luscious and it makes me smile to remember the look.) He would say "Next week we will discuss pro-choice. YOU will argue the pro-life point of view."

It made me so angry so often. I would protest. I would consider saying "I have nothing to add to this debate." But when I plowed forward and did what he asked me to do, whether it was to debate in private or public conversation, I invariably ~learned~ something, had the opportunity for new perspective, AND pleased him to no end. He took great pride in my effort, especially when the effort was difficult. I ~chose~ to do well, to show him that I was willing to extend the effort for him.

It was a positive experience. He wasn't asking me to change my mind. He was asking me to ~use~ it. This was part of our "kink" I guess. It worked well ~for us~.

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to SweetAndInnocent)

Post #: 52

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 1:00:39 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think the question is "What do you do when two core beliefs contradict eachother?"

Finally, someone is getting to one of the core points of the matter.
This is the fundamental point of ethics: goal optimization.
You find the best compromise between values.

The alternative is to have a moral system in which no contradictions are possible.
Those are complicated, or extremely compact, usually both.

quote:

But only a dumbass or a weird life ending moment of necessary deception would simply tell a slave to counteract the priorities they have communicated as important at an instant.

Not sure I parsed that phrase correctly, but I think you meant it's okay when it's strictly necessary.
I would tend to agree with that part, if I understood what you said here correctly.
If I say "duck", I don't want the person thinking too much on it.
Same thing if one of us has a gun to our heads.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 53

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 1:23:05 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PapiNsweet

i agree with Bita in that if i want the freedom and ability to disobey or go my own way when things truly get tough, then i might as well call myself vanilla, no frills.

Well, close, but not quite. It might still be in the BDSM domain, but not the whole package.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to PapiNsweet)

Post #: 54

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 1:38:36 PM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

In reading through this thread several things popped out at me. Specifically comments made by kyra and Bita. As I read what they have to say, they both would obey without question. Something many others hesitate to do.

In reading all of these two women's posts and KoM's, in the time I have been on these threads I understand WHY they would obey without question. It is not a question of WHAT is being asked of them or any other similar logistic. Both women are strong intelligent women. The key is that they chose who they would submit their power and choice to, with great care.

My personal feelings on this subject are that if a submissive or slave is unsure of obeying then perhaps their choice in whom they serve and submit to should be questioned, rather than the thing they have been asked to do.

As someone else stated (my appologies I can see the face in the avatar but the name escapes me) I can not imagine asking someone to do something that would put them in such a dilemma. It is part of my responsibility to them.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/10/2007 1:40:11 PM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 55

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 1:40:16 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Or that they are trained to question and not simply accept. Many masters will train their slaves to be sounding boards and proactive in questioning and adding additional information, at least in certain areas- so to NOT ask questions or question obedience would be disobeying and wrong for the slave to do.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 56

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 1:42:44 PM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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Very true, and that would be a good question to pose. Another thing I thought of is just the basic communication. Discussing the subject to understand the potential for problems prior to the dominant just giving a command without a thought.....which is basically what you said.........duhhhhh I need more sleep!

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/10/2007 1:43:27 PM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 57

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 1:44:48 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Don't we all? What are all these slaves good for if we're still always tired!

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 7/10/2007 1:45:33 PM >

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 58

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 1:47:28 PM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

oooh slaveish you are a better person than i. i have very strong political views, i honestly do not think i could be with a Master who wanted me to carry a George Bush for President sign (for those that might want to, that is not meant to start a political discussion). i have very strong opinions about certain things. If he wanted me to do it just to obey... i really do not think i could. Granted, i say that not having a Master, but i do not see myself that giving, anymore. He would most definitely know how i feel about certain things and he would know how passionate i am about those things. i think i would take such an order as one of 'your opinion and feelings do not matter' and i will not accept that.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

(in reply to slaveish)

Post #: 59

RE: obedience regardless??? - 7/10/2007 1:58:04 PM

rascallymisty

Posts: 123
Joined: 8/1/2006
Status: offline

So many have said what I would have said, I could not go against something I believe so strongly in. My reasoning is......because the Man I server, who is in my in my life today..... may not be in it tomorrow. I will always be in my life, thus I will always have to live with my choices. So I would "quote un quote".... have to disobey if it went against what I believe in.

Hopefully the man I am with would agree with how I feel about things and I agree with His view also, otherwise I can not see me with that person.

~ misty ~

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 60

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