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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 8:10:16 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

When will you accept the fact that the only country in the middle east that is truly devoted to peace is ISRAEL!



That certainly explains the missiles and bombs they have fired at Lebanon and their other neighbors over the years.

Peace through superior firepower.  I suppose that is where the Neo-cons learned it.

Care to comment on how well that strategy is working for them?

Sinergy

p.s.  Carter was the one who got all the warring powers to the negotiating table to figure out how to peacefully coexist, an effort that every Republican administration since then has worked diligently to dismantle.


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 8:14:56 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

both of them and all the simple-minded twits who are so
quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Sinergy,
The threat to the US from N Korea is diminished now that he has backed down from his programs, but he has 3 different ICBM's capable of reaching Hawaii...Home of the US Pacific Fleet.  That is a threat


so what should the world do about us?  We have enough to blow every square inch of th eworld off the planet.  Sounds like we are a threat too.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 8:24:26 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Wow a possibly constructive topic. I have not read any of the responses yet and will focus on the OP.

We have to fix things at home first. The fix has to come from the bottom up. The people of the US have to take the power back. First thing we have to realize is that the party lines divide us. Whether it is democrats or republicans in control, alot of the same problems exist, so the system is not working for us. Politicians are supposed to be servants of the people, not servants of special interest and corporations. Many want to focus on campaign reform to fix this problem, wake up people yje problem is with the politicians. Next election I would almost bet money that it will not be a republican, and the biggest reason for that is the republican party allowed the non-cons (I think everyone else refers to them as neo-cons), and even when it was apparent that their agenda was not in line with the party platform, they still supported them. Why did they support them, because of party lines. Now the democrats have control of the House and believe it is a mandate to end the war, well we have more problems than just Iraq, and many of them are here at home. I am sure the democrats will handle things, business as usual, and we will still have alot of the same problems, and some different ones too.

The people have to send a clear message that we are not going to accept the business as usual politics, from either party. Track the voting records of your reps and senators, make sure they are following through on their pledge to do certain things, and when they don't, contact them and let them know you are not going to support them if they continue. When this next batch shows the same colors as almost all of them before, then toss them out with the clear message we are not going to accept business as usual politcal games like what has happened for decades.

Repeal the 17th amendment and give the states back some power in Washington. Now you can put pressure on your state politicians to put people in those positions that will represent your state.

Ignore the media, it is no longer news, it is entertainment. It now consists of more commentary than facts. Research the important things yourself.

Demand accountability, this includes the President and his advisors. If the elected politicians don't do their job then vote them out.

The first thing is the people need to be involved, become educated, and make up their own minds on things. I do not see this happening though, not in time to be able to turn things around.

Tax reform is sorely needed. It is not just cheap labor as the reason many manufacturing and other jobs are going away and being replaced by third rate products from foreign countries. Big business will go where they can keep overhead down. There is an imbedded tax in doing business as a corporation, and that is why many go elsewhere. What do we actually still manufacturer here in the US? We need that manufacturing back so we do not have to rely on foreign imports of goods. Also, in this tax reform, it needs to be made fair, so that everyone is paying taxes based upon how much the actually spend, and not how much they make and possibly reinvest.

Immigration is out of control. I have no problem with immigrants but with the huge influx of criminal immigrants, it puts a strain on the infrastructure and they are not paying taxes for that infrastructure. Tax reform such as fairtax.org will collect taxes from anyone that purchases goods at the retail level, which will include the money gained from all illegal enterprises. A non-partisan think tank needs to be created to study the impact of immigration, in combination with closing the borders.

Closed borders will help with security, illegal drug trade and criminal immigration. This needs to be done in combination with a reform of immigration.

Health care costs rise and that is what really causes the biggest problem with affordable health care. Follow the money and see why it costs so much. The answer may be some type of universal health care, but I am loathe to give even more power to our government and they do not have the best track record at successful projects.

Education needs to be at the local level, so that parents can influence directly how their kids are being taught. This needs to be done in coordination with a reform of how policy is implemented. Stop catering to the parents that just want to complain. If Johnny Runamuck is causing problems then the parents need to be held accountable.

Full transperancy of our government. If you become a politician then you sacrifice your right to privacy, and are now under the watchful eye of the people who put you there.

I am tired and can go on for a long time but if we use the constitution as it is intended, then maybe we can get back to a republic that has true checks and balances, and is a servant of the people.

Orion

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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 8:24:47 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Sinergy,
The threat to the US from N Korea is diminished now that he has backed down from his programs, but he has 3 different ICBM's capable of reaching Hawaii...Home of the US Pacific Fleet.  That is a threat


This seems a bit obtuse.

First off:  North Korea announced several years ago that they had successfully detonated a 25 megaton nuclear weapon.  Seismic reports suggested the nominal yeild was less than 4 megatons.  If they had detonated the amount of plutonium the claimed to use, then it was improperly constructed resulting in significantly less effective nominal yeilds.

Secondly:  North Korea cannot actually build things like bicycles which work.  The suggestion that they could build an ICBM which would actually hit Hawaii is simply unfathomable. 

I personally think one of two things is happening.

1)  Rush Limbaugh and his ilk, in all of their unstudied dittoheadness, are misattributing comments to Kim Jong Il.  This seems to be their modus operandi when they want to get the right-wing wackos in the United States whipped into a paranoid lather.

2) Kim Jong Il is doing the same thing that Saddam Hussein allegedly did, which was bluff with nothing.

I personally believe the former.

Bluffing might get the United States to throw money at North Korea.  If Kim Jong Il was to fire a missile at Hawaii, which splashed down and didnt explode 10 miles from the Korean shore, the United States response would render the entire country flat with nothing left alive on it.

Sinergy

p.s.  Where exactly are you getting your information about North Korea's weapons capability?

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 8:27:10 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		"The difference between the govt. and the private sector is that in the private sector you're rewarded for finding simple solutions to complicated problems."


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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 8:31:27 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"The difference between the govt. and the private sector is that in the private sector you're rewarded for finding simple solutions to complicated problems."



Worked so well for Halliburton.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 8:34:28 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy



First off:  North Korea announced several years ago that they had successfully detonated a 25 megaton nuclear weapon.  Seismic reports suggested the nominal yeild was less than 4 megatons. 




        You mean kilotons.  Kind of a critical difference.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 8:44:58 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy



First off:  North Korea announced several years ago that they had successfully detonated a 25 megaton nuclear weapon.  Seismic reports suggested the nominal yeild was less than 4 megatons. 




       You mean kilotons.  Kind of a critical difference.


Fair enough.

Although my point was less about total yeild and more about the technical problems which caused their yeild to be 1/6 of what was reported.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 8:49:20 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
If we withdraw from the ME, leaving chaos in our wake


we created it by being there and supplying isreal with nukes and f16's and now this invasion and occupation of their country(ies).




       Our steps and mis-steps in the region over this century and the last certainly played a role creating the overall situation, Real, but I'm not going to accept that it's all our fault. 

       Are you suggesting that if we simply leave, that solves the problem?


No i am suggesting that if we should have been smart enough as a country not to get into another quagmire like nam.   how freaking obvious can it be that this was a setup?  atta's id just floated into the fbi's hands LOL  and a car load of shit saying i love you was proof.  bin laden not even wanted by the fbi for wtc LOL 

We never should have been in there in the first place and the solution is to stop the assholes in this government from pulling this crap on us time and time again.

Once some idiot smashes the hell out of your pierce arrow how do you ever put humpty dumpty back to its original condition.   you simply cannot.

When can we get out?  We are going to get our asses busted no matter when we leave.  We have 2 choices, either get out and let the civil war ensue or make it the 51st state.  There is no way to avoid the inevitible shit mess of our creation and like my fathers old saying,  "the more you stir shit the more it stinks"

We need to get and let the chips fall where they may.  One mistake does not justify second.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 8:56:16 PM   
Sinergy


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I think we would be out of Iraq tomorrow if we forced all the war supporters to pay all the expenses, so the
rest of us dont have to.

Sort of a "vote to support the war with your checkbook" vs. "vote to not support the war by not paying for it"

Classic example of people who are all hot to support a stupid idea as long as they can maintain the personal fantasy that they are not personally inconvenienced by it.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 9:04:57 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


We need to get and let the chips fall where they may. 




      But then we'll find ourselves reacting to the chips that fall here, Real.  (Remember now, this is Level's thoughtful constructive thread.  If you head off in the direction I'm thinking you are thinking, I'm gonna have to call you a cockaziod  )

      Wouldn't the repercussions of that send us even farther down the slippery slope we could probably agree about being on in terms of individual and civil liberties?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 9:06:49 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I am tired and can go on for a long time but if we use the constitution as it is intended, then maybe we can get back to a republic that has true checks and balances, and is a servant of the people.

Orion


excellent elaboration and post!   Yeh the required fixes are so extensive that its nearly as thick as the full oxford dictionary just to scratch the surface of the "must do's"


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 9:19:59 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		We need to take back our government. The government needs to start doing the will of the people. They are stewards of the positions they hold ... they are not kings.
 
We should withdraw from both the United Nations and NATO. This isn't a call to isolationism, it's a call to remove ourselves from groups that serve no purpose.
 
We should be very careful not to entangle ourselved with alliances or trade groups. You make allies when you need to ... meaning there is common interest or common enemy ... and even then, only when events dictate. You don't make allies, just to have allies. You make trade groups when you need to. Right now we don't need to. We could simply refuse to deal with any trade groups, like the EU, but offer to come to mutual agreements with individual nations.
 
This would in short order, crater this globalization crap that has the potential for as much peril at the pre-First World War, alliances scenario.

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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 9:25:00 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


We need to get and let the chips fall where they may. 




     But then we'll find ourselves reacting to the chips that fall here, Real.  (Remember now, this is Level's thoughtful constructive thread.  If you head off in the direction I'm thinking you are thinking, I'm gonna have to call you a cockaziod  )

     Wouldn't the repercussions of that send us even farther down the slippery slope we could probably agree about being on in terms of individual and civil liberties?


To believe that you first have to believe that alqaeda "really" shut down our air command on 911.

Sorry but there is no way in hell you can convince me that alqaeda infiltrated our government and forced cheney to take over norad on that one day.

No i do not believe for 1 minute that alqaeda will follow us here.  cialqaeda....or FEMAlaqeada now that is another story. in a new york second to maintain the strangle hold they have on us.

Call it what you wish I will go as far as agreeing that paid mercernaries destroyed those towers and those paid mercernaries were of arab decent, but beyond that i do not sucker for the hegelian dialectic and dual pressure so easily.

I have no reason to believe that they will follow us here.  I have every  reason to believe that we will be made to "think" they followed us here.

i dont allow this government to play me for a sucker either on a local level or national.  In a word they hate me here too LOL  So put any definition you wish on it i stand by the evidence.

To answer your question yes it will send us farther down that slippery slope if we continue to turn our backs on fully investigating our government.   I say call their bluff, investigate and prosecute and they will put us through hell initially but our kids will thank us in spades until they take over again 5 generations from now.

It will send us so far down that slope so fast that people will actually notice and do something about it.   i see nothing but a win win situation here here unless we continue to sit on our hands and do nothing and then what does it matter anyway?

Big brother will protect you.  (at least till he needs/wants more money).  of course the price for that is he needs to know and direct which hand you wipe your butt with.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 10:08:12 PM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Sinergy,
First Saddam wasnt bluffing, or did you forget the thousands of Kurds he gassed? Or the weapons he used in Iran?
Second, in N Korea the people live in poverty with bicycles that dont work, but the Government and the military is actually very advanced, it's why his military is so large, it's the best way to put food on the table.
I get my information from a variety of sources, the ones I discuss here are the unclassified ones. When N Korea launched the Taepodong 2 missile last year (well as 2 dozen scuds, several of which were aimed at me even though we were well out of range of scuds) there were programs on all the major news stations about his capability, the previous version of the Taepodong was a sucessful launch that sailed over Japan and well into the pacific. The second was had faulty electronics and barely got off the ground. I will do some research and find new sources as I dont have the links stored anymore.

As for Israel, the most recent war in Lebanon was started due to an act of war by a state sponsored terrorist group, Hizbullah, in which they crossed into Israel, killed 4 IDF soldiers and kidnapped 2 more. That is in addition to hundreds of Qassam rocket attacks from south Lebanon PRIOR to the war.
In 1948, Israel declared independence, hours later 7 Arab nations launched an unprovoked invasion. In which Israel won, but lost the Gaza Strip, the Golan, and what later became known as the West Bank.
In 1967, Egypy close the Timur straits, cutting off the majority of Israeli shipping, as well both Egpyt and Syria were massing large amounts of troops on Israel's border. With Egpyt's act of war in closing the straights and an invasion being inevitble Israel took the offensive and launched a preemptive strike, destroying the entire Egpytian air force on the ground. 6 days later Israel liberated Gaza, the Golan, and the West Bank, officially Annexing the Golan and Jerusalem. and completely took over the Sinai Pennisula(which Israel later traded as part of a peace deal with Egpyt).  Dont forget Israel told Jordan that if Jordan stayed out of the war Israel would not attack the West Bank, Jordan ignored that and attacked Israel.
In 1973 Egpyt and Syria launched a suprise invasion, which ended with Israeli tanks within shelling distance of Damascus and Cairo.
In 1972 Entebbe, Israel launched a sucessful special forces operation into Uganda to resuce the hostages of an Air France airliner.

Israel's track record of peace:
Oslo accords- Israel complied with over 75% of it's agreements, the arabs- 0%
Camp David- Offered 98% of all palestinian demands(including right of return), arabs response: no way in hell.
Giving back the Sinai
Leaving Gaza
Helping the Egpytians to revolutionize their agricultural industy(thanks to Ariel Sharon). which has helped to build strong relations between the two neighbors, proving that Israel is more than happy to live in peace with her neighbors, if the Arabs want to.
The Road map to piece, sabotaged numerous times by Hamas, Hizbullah, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim, and more.
Israel always returns bodies of terrorists, even the suicide bombers.
The Arabs lynch and mutilate the bodies of IDF soldiers.
Israel now is releasing 178 known murders, canceling warrants for others, and once again is sitting down to negotiate with Fatah whose charter still calls for the destruction of Israel.

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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 10:17:05 PM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		And please dont say that Carter was a good mediator in the ME, he is more of a puppet to the Arabs than any other President. His foundation gets millions every year from Arabs. His book, "Peace...not aparthied" is full of blatant lies, mistruths, anti-semitic comments.

Carter merely wants to keep his funding, which for him means helping to destroy the only true democracy in the middle east

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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 10:18:39 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy



First off:  North Korea announced several years ago that they had successfully detonated a 25 megaton nuclear weapon.  Seismic reports suggested the nominal yeild was less than 4 megatons. 




     You mean kilotons.  Kind of a critical difference.


Fair enough.

Although my point was less about total yeild and more about the technical problems which caused their yeild to be 1/6 of what was reported.

Sinergy



       It's more than simply a difference of reported yields.  A 4 megaton nuclear weapon would be capable of tremendous devastation.  The 4 kilotons recorded raises serious questions about whether the event in North Korea last year was even a nuclear detonation at all, or if it should be considered more failure than success. 


      Really, any discussion of North Korea requires looking at the economic impact of them counterfeiting our $100 bills.  They seem to have the technicalities of that completely mastered

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 7/15/2007 10:23:06 PM >

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 10:29:48 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54
Carter merely wants to keep his funding, which for him means helping to destroy the only true democracy in the middle east


more like us supported terror state


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NavyDDG54)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 10:30:47 PM   
NavyDDG54


Posts: 203
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		And the only reason Israel has superior firepower is because they have been fighting a war of survival for 59 years...that tends to cause military R&D

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RE: What should America do? - 7/15/2007 10:31:21 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Utopian Ranger,
I've been to the gulf, I know it's not the same as being on the ground, but I was there when Iran illegally kidnapped the British sailors in an act of war, we were there 10 miles away from Iranian strike group, waiting for one side to start the next war. So I have an idea what it's like, and for the record I have volunteered to go to Iraq 3 times on an individual augmentation billet, only to be turned down because my ship was undermanned in my rate and they couldnt afford to let me go.


I don't take your rhetoric/ response to me or anyone else here, serious at all. It's been formed by a very young mind, with an oppressed /narrow view of the geo-political landscape.

For the record.....I hope you are never placed in that unfortunate position where you find yourself flying in or landing on the beachhead of Iraq/Iran in a plane or amphibious vehicle.


I'm fairly confident that one day your views will change - I know mine did.





- R





_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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