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RE: What should America do? - 7/17/2007 6:39:34 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"Supporter of Liberty Everywhere, DEFENDER OF OUR OWN!"




Fargle, who said that?

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RE: What should America do? - 7/17/2007 7:07:54 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"Supporter of Liberty Everywhere, DEFENDER OF OUR OWN!"




Fargle, who said that?

quote:

Supporter of Liberty Everywhere, DEFENDER OF OUR OWN



Excerpted From: Library of the World's Best Literature, Ancient and Modern By Charles Dudley Warner Copyright 1886 -- EXPIRED.

John Quincy Adams, 6th President of the united States

THE MISSION OF AMERICA
From his Fourth of July Oration at Washington, 1821

AND now, friends and countrymen, if the wise and learned philosophers of the older world, the first observers of nutation and aberration, the discoverers of maddening ether and invisible planets, the inventors of Congreve rockets and shrapnel shells, should find their hearts disposed to inquire, What has America done for mankind? let our answer be this: —

America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government.

America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity.

She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, equal justice, and equal rights.

She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations, while asserting and maintaining her own.

She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when the conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart.

She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama, the European World, will be contests between inveterate power and emerging right. Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions, and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy.

She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.

She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.

She will recommend the general cause, by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.

She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.

The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force. The frontlet upon her brows would no longer beam with the ineffable splendor of freedom and independence; but in its stead would soon be substituted an imperial diadem, flashing in false and tarnished lustre the murky radiance of dominion and power. She might become the dictatress of the world; she would no longer be the ruler of her own spirit.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/17/2007 7:09:45 PM >


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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: What should America do? - 7/17/2007 11:21:16 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

(FR)

What should America do? Isolationism or Globalism?

.......i'd suggest that the problem is implied in how the question is set out, (sorry Level), it's not about whether the US retreats into isolationism or whether it leads the world into a brighter tomorrow because it isn't just up to America. In my opinion the one real problem the US has lies in believing that the fate of the world is in its hands. All countries need to have a say, all cultures and religions, because we all have to live on a spinning ball of limited size and resources. Once America as a whole realises that the rest of the world has a valid opinion then its foreign policy will work better for America.


Philosophy, they can have all the opinions they want, good luck to them!
But as an American Taxpayer I shouldn't be paying for them.
I have two things that I want when it comes to dealing with foreign countries; "No Troops", "No Money."


America doesn't pay the rest of the world, America pays when it thinks it is in their interest to pay for something, just like any other country.

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RE: What should America do? - 7/18/2007 6:03:47 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Imperialism I guess.

Which is the irony of globalisation on the part of America. As long as America has been top dog it has not had a problem with its type of globalisation, ie. imperialism but now there are rivals on the horizon in the shape of China, India and Russia, it doesn't seem to like it. Such timidity to me smacks of lack of confidence and decline.

As for other former imperial powers, France has never liked globalisation or imperialism at its own expense either, Germany gave up trying after obvious disasters but to be fair to Britain, it has embraced globalisation and has thrived on it.


Joe Q. Public has never fully embraced globalism and has a strong history of various degrees of isolationism. American industry has a completely different agenda.
 
The biggest problem we have over here right now, is that Americans are no longer in control of the American government. What the people want, and what the government is giving them, tends to be two different things.
 
Until you learn to distinguish between the two, you will always have a jaded view of America ... which is of course your right.

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the woman you stole.

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RE: What should America do? - 7/18/2007 6:10:20 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Imperialism I guess.

Which is the irony of globalisation on the part of America. As long as America has been top dog it has not had a problem with its type of globalisation, ie. imperialism but now there are rivals on the horizon in the shape of China, India and Russia, it doesn't seem to like it. Such timidity to me smacks of lack of confidence and decline.

As for other former imperial powers, France has never liked globalisation or imperialism at its own expense either, Germany gave up trying after obvious disasters but to be fair to Britain, it has embraced globalisation and has thrived on it.


Joe Q. Public has never fully embraced globalism and has a strong history of various degrees of isolationism. American industry has a completely different agenda.
 
The biggest problem we have over here right now, is that Americans are no longer in control of the American government. What the people want, and what the government is giving them, tends to be two different things.
 
Until you learn to distinguish between the two, you will always have a jaded view of America ... which is of course your right.


I don't have a jaded view of America per se, more a jaded view of the American elite but no more so than I have a jaded view of the British elite but luckily the British elite don't have the power to fuck up the world anymore.

When I go to America, which has been quite a few times in recent years, I have really enjoyed myself. Confounded at times, bewildered, bemused and baffled but I've always enjoyed myself and I've found the people very friendly and warm. (I never discuss politics with strangers though)

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: What should America do? - 7/18/2007 6:50:20 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Imperialism I guess.

Which is the irony of globalisation on the part of America. As long as America has been top dog it has not had a problem with its type of globalisation, ie. imperialism but now there are rivals on the horizon in the shape of China, India and Russia, it doesn't seem to like it. Such timidity to me smacks of lack of confidence and decline.

As for other former imperial powers, France has never liked globalisation or imperialism at its own expense either, Germany gave up trying after obvious disasters but to be fair to Britain, it has embraced globalisation and has thrived on it.


Joe Q. Public has never fully embraced globalism and has a strong history of various degrees of isolationism. American industry has a completely different agenda.
 
The biggest problem we have over here right now, is that Americans are no longer in control of the American government. What the people want, and what the government is giving them, tends to be two different things.
 
Until you learn to distinguish between the two, you will always have a jaded view of America ... which is of course your right.


I don't have a jaded view of America per se, more a jaded view of the American elite but no more so than I have a jaded view of the British elite but luckily the British elite don't have the power to fuck up the world anymore.

When I go to America, which has been quite a few times in recent years, I have really enjoyed myself. Confounded at times, bewildered, bemused and baffled but I've always enjoyed myself and I've found the people very friendly and warm. (I never discuss politics with strangers though)



try it sometime.  most will have a dumb look on their face and say "huh"?   especially the younger ipod and nintendo generation and especially if you talk about "how money really works via the federal farce, err i mean reserve.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: What should America do? - 7/18/2007 7:01:04 AM   
ripples


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I love you people 

All joking apart, I haven't seen the discussion - "America - love 'em or hate 'em?" </paraphrasing> on an online discussion without it turning almost immediately to personal attacks, before. Or Godwin's law coming into force. Good to see.

As an English woman, I just wanted to quote:
quote:

ORIGINAL: ErusDespicienta
America wants to be loved , they are  trying desperately to make the world love them.  It is such a new country which really as yet has no legitismacy, it yearns recognition for doing good deeds.  What it doesn't realise is that not everyone wants good deeds .  Ever met someone who says " If you want my advice "  and then proceeds to give it without waiting for your answer, that's how I see America...dishing out that which IT thinks everyone else wants.
Which way should America go ?  It should set an example. It is seeking to implement ways and social structure for others that is not yet practicing at home. .Fix America and then let the world  judge if it's a great way of life and government. IF the world agrees that it is the right way to do things, other countries will quickly copy it.

Forcing people to accept a different way of life for no reason other than " because I said so" is not the right way to go about any change.

For the record I was born British, lived in England for 30 years, then moved to the US for the next 19, now back in the UK. I have 2 American children who live in the NE.
I have learnt ..there is no paradise, if there was, everyone would go there and it would cease to be paradise. Live and let live, understand rather than judge, listen and learn.

for truth.

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: What should America do? - 7/18/2007 11:27:00 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ripples

for truth.



I thought FargleBargle's post was interesting. I don't know anything about 19th century US, but I do agree that imperialism has no soul.

What should the US do? Withdraw immediately and do as they please within their own borders.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: What should America do? - 7/18/2007 11:30:51 AM   
Alumbrado


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Very likely sound advice. 

Do you think it would occur without a negative reaction from those outside the US?
(And I'm not thinking about client states... I suspect that the same calls for 'Death to America' would be rephrased to demand retribution for the evils of an isolationist USA).

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/18/2007 11:31:16 AM >

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RE: What should America do? - 7/18/2007 12:24:48 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Very likely sound advice. 

Do you think it would occur without a negative reaction from those outside the US?
(And I'm not thinking about client states... I suspect that the same calls for 'Death to America' would be rephrased to demand retribution for the evils of an isolationist USA).


Possibly, but I reckon they'd be in the minority. What's the saying "can't please all of the people all of the time" etc.

I think there'd be a difference in attitude in the Middle East. I mean, setting up shop in someone's country isn't exactly the best bargaining tool for a spot of hospitality. That's common sense to me. I've been to certain parts of the ME several times, and, genuinely, politics and beer have mixed with the locals and not once has the subject of the US been broached, or Israel for that matter. Based on my personal experience, the notion of America as a "great satan" is not widespread in the ME. Then again, I haven't been to Iran.

When push comes to shove, most people are concerned with their immediate sphere of interest/influence i.e. the local community, and providing others don't get in their face, then there's not going to be a problem. I reckon it's reasonable to assume that bulldozing peoples' countries isn't going to place the US government on their Christmas card list for the forseeable future, whereas the US government doing their own thing isn't going to be much, if anything, of a problem.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 7/18/2007 12:25:13 PM >


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: What should America do? - 7/18/2007 12:30:51 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Very likely sound advice. 

Do you think it would occur without a negative reaction from those outside the US?
(And I'm not thinking about client states... I suspect that the same calls for 'Death to America' would be rephrased to demand retribution for the evils of an isolationist USA).


Possibly, but I reckon they'd be in the minority. What's the saying "can't please all of the people all of the time" etc.

I think there'd be a difference in attitude in the Middle East. I mean, setting up shop in someone's country isn't exactly the best bargaining tool for a spot of hospitality. That's common sense to me. I've been to certain parts of the ME several times, and, genuinely, politics and beer have mixed with the locals and not once has the subject of the US been broached, or Israel for that matter. Based on my personal experience, the notion of America as a "great satan" is not widespread in the ME. Then again, I haven't been to Iran.

When push comes to shove, most people are concerned with their immediate sphere of interest/influence i.e. the local community, and providing others don't get in their face, then there's not going to be a problem. I reckon it's reasonable to assume that bulldozing peoples' countries isn't going to place the US government on their Christmas card list for the forseeable future, whereas the US government doing their own thing isn't going to be much, if anything, of a problem.


i agree with you 100% NG! 

This has all been trumped jup by our honest joe government and blown out of proportion so they could sell and continue to sell the war on freedom.    i mean terror.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: What should America do? - 7/18/2007 1:33:28 PM   
popeye1250


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Funny, the same people who tell (me) as an American Citizen that I should have a more "global" outlook on life don't bother to tell that to people from ,...oh,.......Cambodia, Poland, Zimbabwe, Haiti, China, Moldovia, Malaysia etc etc.
I wonder why that is?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: What should America do? - 7/18/2007 6:17:49 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Funny, the same people who tell (me) as an American Citizen that I should have a more "global" outlook on life don't bother to tell that to people from ,...oh,.......Cambodia, Poland, Zimbabwe, Haiti, China, Moldovia, Malaysia etc etc.
I wonder why that is?


ou ou i got it!  because we are the good guys and they are the bad guys LOL  or at least they would have us believe


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: What should America do? - 7/19/2007 12:26:32 AM   
ripples


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I think there are faults on all sides, as is normally the case in any conflict whether between two individuals, two organisations or two countries.

For instance, although the US is donating aid to Egypt, the general Egyptian public are not made aware of this. Infact, the Egyptian government actively hides the fact and the public's dislike of the States is not curtailed as a result. The Egyptian government is then able to say to the US "Oh, look, we've got to stay in power because everyone else hates you, but we'll be your friends and stop anyone doing anything".

On the other hand, the US, when on active duty, doesn't employ the tactic of winning hearts and minds - something that, I'm sure, was a huge factor in the problems that occured in the Vietnam conflict. Infact, as an observation, the US rarely employs this tactic, ever. All too often are other countries criticized for their cars, their food, their lack of guns (), their culture; but at the same time berated for disliking the US pomposity. The French are a great antithesis of this attitude. You tell the French you hate them and they just don't care, they are totally secure in their Frenchness! They won't enter a stand up fight with you to force you to 'take it back, you goddamn foreigner' or even say 'if you don't like it, fuck off home', they'll just take your money for their wine, their cheese, their cafe lattes and ignore you.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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