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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 1:08:19 AM   
ripples


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Actually NG. I think the Brits are some of the most creative people in Europe, that is why so many Brits do well in the creative fields in Europe and I think the workingclass Brits are great but I hate the shit that runs the country and the pompous middleclasses.


Whilst I agree with a lot you've written about England in your previous posts, this is far too broad a generalisation. The class system you refer to is far too outdated to illustrate today's England accurately.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 1:53:14 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ripples

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Actually NG. I think the Brits are some of the most creative people in Europe, that is why so many Brits do well in the creative fields in Europe and I think the workingclass Brits are great but I hate the shit that runs the country and the pompous middleclasses.


Whilst I agree with a lot you've written about England in your previous posts, this is far too broad a generalisation. The class system you refer to is far too outdated to illustrate today's England accurately.



It is somewhat of a generalised statement. When I grew up there wasn't an underclass. However, even with the increase in the number of people going to university, according to figures in many reports, (and I believe the government admits this) there is still only 4% of the lower income groups going to oxbridge and the red brick universities which is the same as in 1960. Just because Polytechnics call themselves universitites doesn't mean they are, many of these institutions are second and third rate and the students are duped into believing they have a worthwhile degrees until they try to get a job with them. Yes, some of these new universities are good but many more aren't.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/19/2007 1:55:18 AM >

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 2:10:38 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

For example, if you are a US exporter, and the euro is trading higher against the dollar ("a strong euro"), then it means that your goods are cheaper to sell in Europe, thus increasing your profits and market share.

As a result, the number of jobs, and the ability of American companies to pay higher wages and make additional capital investments all improve.

On the other hand, the higher euro makes it more difficult for European based companies do the same thing.

I just mention this because I often see otherwise knowledgeable people often decrying the US economy as "weak" because the euro has passed a 1:1 trading value for the dollar, and they think it's some kind of indication that it's "bad" for the US economy.

Not necessarily true.

FirmKY



I agree the exchange rate is just one statistic and on its own is meaningless.

But for America creating more jobs, this also depends on how you read the figures. In many European countries, being unemployed doesn't mean you aren't working and earning any money, it means you aren't working enough hours and earning enough money to be classified as earning a living wage. I remember one of your compatriots on one of the threads saying how little money someone has to earn to be classified as employed in America. It was lower than the threshold of being classed as employed in many western European countries. The figure escapes me now but maybe you can clarify this or if the person who original stated this, reads this post, maybe they can restate what they said. All the same, German workers earn on average higher wages than their American counterparts from what I understand and have greater social benefits while at the same time exporting more manufactured products than the USA. I wish I could say it was so for the whole of Europe. However, the success of the Germans does show that high income, high tax and good social benefits do not inhibit an economy and there is no need to go down the low-wage, low tax, low social benefit route of the Anglo-Saxon model where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Unlike Britain and America, the middle income group in Germany is not declining.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/19/2007 2:11:58 AM >

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 2:36:28 AM   
ripples


Posts: 31
Joined: 7/4/2007
Status: offline 		Errrrr, that's only one issue in a huge social situation.

More people are doing undergraduate degrees (whatever their worth) than ever before. However, this very factor devalues what a degree was once worth.

Universities make money through the number of students on their books, failing students doesn't make them money, thus it is in the universities interests to give the students an easier ride - giving more opportunities to re-take etc.

More job applicants have degrees, so employers have to look at the status of the university from which the degree was obtained and the degree classification itself. Having a 2.1 Medical degree from Imperial is worth more than a 1st from Southampton. So, exactly the same as it was before.

Going back to the 'class' system; it is better identified, in my opinion, in the method of consumption used by the individual. And this is, to a degree, determined by the wealth and thus the choices available to the individual. A plumber nowadays, is probably earning double what I am with a doctorate. As a result, I would argue that he has more choices and thus more power than I do, which does not make him working class with the connotations that that has.

I hesitate to believe that there was no underclass when you were growing up. There has always been a segment of society that has a limited participation in the workforce and no personal wealth to fall back on. Look at the work houses, the 'loony bins'. But then again, there's no agreed definition of what 'underclass' actually is.

It's a subject that's really important to understanding how individuals, communities, societies and thus countries, operate. But it's not one that I'm nearly qualified enough to comment on... so I'll shut up now

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 4:23:48 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ripples

I hesitate to believe that there was no underclass when you were growing up. There has always been a segment of society that has a limited participation in the workforce and no personal wealth to fall back on. Look at the work houses, the 'loony bins'. But then again, there's no agreed definition of what 'underclass' actually is.


The underclass was a product of the Thatcher era and caused through the mass unemployment her policies created but its roots were in the failing economy of the previous Labour government. You had children that grew up in unemployed households who entered their thirties without ever having had a job. I worked in the probation service in the 90s, the amount of thirty year olds with children who had never worked was staggering. These people didn't have the self confidence and self esteem to go out and find work and created a generation that is now growing up that have never had a role model that worked. Mostly these people are unseened and ignored by politicians but they are there and their presence is felt in the crime statistics, increased prison population, increased poverty and all the social problems that go along with that. You could put many of the breakdowns that Cameron talks about down to what started in the Thatcher era.

When I grew up if someone was unemployed they wanted to be. A cliche I know but true. My problem when I left school was not that there were no jobs, I resented the fact I and my peers were expected to work in the coal mines or steelworks and that our accents would be held against us if we had ideas above our station. The main reason why I and many of my friends went abroad. Ironically I found my self working in the German coal mines at first but at least the pay was over twice that of a British miner.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ripples

It's a subject that's really important to understanding how individuals, communities, societies and thus countries, operate. But it's not one that I'm nearly qualified enough to comment on... so I'll shut up now



Everyone who lives in a society has a right to comment on it. Such things are too important to be left to politicians and experts.

EDITED to add. Neither Thatcher or Blair have ever had a proper job so what qualified them to know what is best for society is beyond me. If they are qualified to know how to run a society so is my friend's dead dog!

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/19/2007 5:11:12 AM >

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 7:31:22 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Naturally, 100 quid says you respond with the Oxford dictionary defintion of "usually", a feast of bullet points and a set of itallics to dominate any work of art you care to mention.


Why would that be necessary?  You afraid of something?

You can send your 100 quid to a charity in my name, thank you.

I think my words stand by themselves pretty well, as they are.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Regardless, a weakening currency is usually a sign of a weakening economy. Look around the world at the volatile, weak currencies and they're in Africa.

...

I've no idea on the performance of the US economy versus European, and quite frankly don't care a jot.


It looks like you don't wish for facts to get in the way of your beliefs, NG.  As well as being sensitive about any European comparisons to the US economy.  Not sure why.

I didn't post to pick a fight with you, NG, and the logical question coming from your post is: what are the signs of a "weak economy" that you see in the US that makes the exchange rate between the dollar and the euro to be what it is?

But of course you realize this, which is why you pre-empt any questions about this by your claim about not caring about the issue.  After you post about it.  It allows you to make an unsupported statement without having to further justify or defend it.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 7/19/2007 7:32:11 AM >

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 10:15:36 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		"The underclass was a product of the Thatcher era and caused through the mass unemployment her policies created but its roots were in the failing economy of the previous Labour government. You had children that grew up in unemployed households who entered their thirties without ever having had a job. I worked in the probation service in the 90s, the amount of thirty year olds with children who had never worked was staggering. These people didn't have the self confidence and self esteem to go out and find work and created a generation that is now growing up that have never had a role model that worked. Mostly these people are unseened and ignored by politicians but they are there and their presence is felt in the crime statistics, increased prison population, increased poverty and all the social problems that go along with that. You could put many of the breakdowns that Cameron talks about down to what started in the Thatcher era.

When I grew up if someone was unemployed they wanted to be."

This does not seem to make sense.  The 30 something in the 90s  were children in the 60s and young adults teens in the era of Thatcher(80s).  Thier outlook and imprinting occured before Thatcher came on the sceneTheir Parents were unemployed and gave them no work models, according to you, because they wanted to.  The previous sytem allowed them to sit on the Dole, party ,and not work if they chose.  This is exactly why Conservatives oppose the Dole for the able bodied.  Meat you should send your story to Shawn Hannity or Rush Limbaugh, they would love it.  If they have no essteem or drive they can't take advantage of an education even if it is offered.  Not sure how you drag Thatcher into this, though I understand that Brit leftists must rage against Thatcher several times a day.  It to mee looks like you said british labor allowed millions of people to sit around unemployed voluntarilly, drinking and raising a generation that is permanantly dependant on the state.  Makes sense as a way of creating a permanent voting class, that will allways vote for Labor and more dole payments.  But as you noted, it destroyed the children and communities.

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 10:24:00 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Makes sense as a way of creating a permanent voting class, that will allways vote for Labor and more dole payments. 


Cues up Rex Harrison... 'By George, he's got it!'

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 11:12:21 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		If EU is doing well- I am happy for you/them.  Why be displeased??? If everone lived the gluttuny much of the US consumes- the planet will die sooner.

algabraically.  if A= good and B= good, then AB = good good.

Camparing indivual countries in EU- is tuff to compare w America. EU is VERY IDENTITYCENTRIC. In much of the USA you can go from state to state- and blend right in.
Due to the space and infancy of America- we dont yet have regional divisions....as in EU.

As an American, I feel America is the greatest place on earth!!!   [tho] That doesnt mean England, ECT, CANtT be great as well!!

Specifically Canada; needs to get past the inferiority complex. We love Canada.

As a citizen of the planet- I loath the over-commercialism, the eleite 1%, the massive curruption....

As an American I havent forgotten Katrina!!!!!  HOW DARE THE FEDS STOP HELP sent by folks from all over the world!!!

Unfortunately- the poverty you seen in Katrina is in other parts of America too!

Lastly- in wha

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 11:15:38 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Lastly; in what  country can a pensioneer purchase a single family home in a safe neighborhood?

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 11:30:21 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: ripples

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Actually NG. I think the Brits are some of the most creative people in Europe, that is why so many Brits do well in the creative fields in Europe and I think the workingclass Brits are great but I hate the shit that runs the country and the pompous middleclasses.


Whilst I agree with a lot you've written about England in your previous posts, this is far too broad a generalisation. The class system you refer to is far too outdated to illustrate today's England accurately.



It is somewhat of a generalised statement. When I grew up there wasn't an underclass. However, even with the increase in the number of people going to university, according to figures in many reports, (and I believe the government admits this) there is still only 4% of the lower income groups going to oxbridge and the red brick universities which is the same as in 1960. Just because Polytechnics call themselves universitites doesn't mean they are, many of these institutions are second and third rate and the students are duped into believing they have a worthwhile degrees until they try to get a job with them. Yes, some of these new universities are good but many more aren't.


Meat, it's just the opposite in the U.S.
After Clinton (both of them) Bush, (both) and Kerry, would you hire someone with a degree from Yale?
It's a real snakepit of global socialism.
I know a guy in Mass who owns a large business and you could call him a "Clinton Hater" and he won't hire anyone who went to Yale.
If you went to Harvard or U. Mass you're in.
Also, he promotes managers from within who have learned the business from the bottom up so he has people with no degrees who are the supervisors of people with degrees.
Also, and this is probably true anywhere, "The boss's *SON* or *DAUGHTER* needs no "degree."
("You have a fuckin problem with that?" "Oh no!! Of course not!"  "No Sireee!"))

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/19/2007 11:42:39 AM >

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 11:35:55 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

When I grew up if someone was unemployed they wanted to be."

This does not seem to make sense.  The 30 something in the 90s  were children in the 60s and young adults teens in the era of Thatcher(80s).  Thier outlook and imprinting occured before Thatcher came on the sceneTheir Parents were unemployed and gave them no work models, according to you, because they wanted to.  The previous sytem allowed them to sit on the Dole, party ,and not work if they chose.  This is exactly why Conservatives oppose the Dole for the able bodied.  Meat you should send your story to Shawn Hannity or Rush Limbaugh, they would love it.  If they have no essteem or drive they can't take advantage of an education even if it is offered.  Not sure how you drag Thatcher into this, though I understand that Brit leftists must rage against Thatcher several times a day.  It to mee looks like you said british labor allowed millions of people to sit around unemployed voluntarilly, drinking and raising a generation that is permanantly dependant on the state.  Makes sense as a way of creating a permanent voting class, that will allways vote for Labor and more dole payments.  But as you noted, it destroyed the children and communities.


Under Thatcher the official statistics (her stats) were 11% unemployed, more independent economists estimated there were 16% + at the height of her economic incompetence. In some areas unemployment was 50%. The town my parents lived the unemployment was 70%. Not only that, Thatcher privatised the public transport which effectively disappeared which meant no one could catch a bus into the city to get a job even if there were jobs there to be had. On top of that interest rates soared and countless people lost their homes.

You might have got the news over there that under Thatcher there were the worst riots in modern British history because she shit on those that didn't support her and people who suffered under her hated her fucking guts. I still hope she dies of a long painful illness and their are people who would be happy to pay to queue up to dance on her grave. One thing for sure, no one could dig her grave deep enough.

Like America, Britain's election system is fucked and allows someone like Thatcher claim victory on 40% of the popular vote.

EDIT I almost forgot. Under Thatcher, at its height inflation reached 18%, industrial output dropped by 30%.

The fucking rightwing incompetent bitch.

Now I wonder why France and Germany didn't pursue the same policies as her?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/19/2007 11:56:32 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 11:36:32 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		LOL at popeye.

i dropped out of MBA masters program. coming home from work then class at night- the theory did not fit teh 9-5. im like how can you say that when i just blah.................................................

so i considered it crap.

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 11:40:08 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Makes sense as a way of creating a permanent voting class, that will allways vote for Labor and more dole payments. 


Cues up Rex Harrison... 'By George, he's got it!'


Actually it wad loopy capitalist dogma employed by Thatcher that was the biggest fuck up.

And it was more leftwing policies that got Britain back on its feet despite psychotic rightwingers saying the country needed what she did. The stats were still fucked up when she left office. Britain still isn't that efficient when compared to other European countries so everything Britain went through was for nothing.

Fucking poxy rightwing slut that she was.

Yeah, Milton Freedman was her psychotic guru. I remember him saying economis like France and Germany will have to go through the s.ame.

Still waiting for them to go through the same. Germany being the biggest manufacturing exporter in the world really needs that Freedman shake up.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/19/2007 12:11:37 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 12:04:16 PM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

LOL at popeye.

i dropped out of MBA masters program. coming home from work then class at night- the theory did not fit teh 9-5. im like how can you say that when i just blah.................................................

so i considered it crap.


Pa Hunk, well it's true!
How many times have you seen the Boss's son or daughter *not* make it right up the management ranks?
"Degree? Pfft, I don't need no stinkin' "degree!"
"Go talk to DADDY!"

_____________________________

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 11:02:05 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Hmm Still no sources about the Czech government's official policy of using sex slaves in their regulated sex industry.

I wonder why?

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/19/2007 11:57:33 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ripples

Errrrr, that's only one issue in a huge social situation.

More people are doing undergraduate degrees (whatever their worth) than ever before. However, this very factor devalues what a degree was once worth.

Universities make money through the number of students on their books, failing students doesn't make them money, thus it is in the universities interests to give the students an easier ride - giving more opportunities to re-take etc.

More job applicants have degrees, so employers have to look at the status of the university from which the degree was obtained and the degree classification itself. Having a 2.1 Medical degree from Imperial is worth more than a 1st from Southampton. So, exactly the same as it was before.

Going back to the 'class' system; it is better identified, in my opinion, in the method of consumption used by the individual. And this is, to a degree, determined by the wealth and thus the choices available to the individual. A plumber nowadays, is probably earning double what I am with a doctorate. As a result, I would argue that he has more choices and thus more power than I do, which does not make him working class with the connotations that that has.

I hesitate to believe that there was no underclass when you were growing up. There has always been a segment of society that has a limited participation in the workforce and no personal wealth to fall back on. Look at the work houses, the 'loony bins'. But then again, there's no agreed definition of what 'underclass' actually is.

It's a subject that's really important to understanding how individuals, communities, societies and thus countries, operate. But it's not one that I'm nearly qualified enough to comment on... so I'll shut up now



Ripples, I know a Biochemist PhD. who works at Tufts U. in Boston who makes about $60-$65k per year.
A Master Plumber who has roughly the same amount (in years.) of education as him in Boston can make $300-$400k per year.
It's called the law of supply and demand.
My friend told me; "You don't go into science for the money."
Forty years ago when 10-12 % of people had a college degree they were worth more.
Now they're a dime a ton!
In some highschools in this country 80-90% of the students go to college after graduation!
In our govt. especially we have people doing jobs with degrees and titles now that were handled by secretarys 20 years ago!
There are FIFTY THREE PAGES of "Lawyers" in my phone book.
One thing we have no "shortage" of in this country is people walking around with college degrees.
The colleges and universitys are absolute "Degree Factories" in this country.
Truck drivers make more money than most people with college and university degrees these days.
My brother owned his own long haul truck in the 90's up until 2002 and we never saw him hardly.
He said his "worst year" was $92,000!
His best,...$131,000.
He's now comfortably retired.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/20/2007 1:35:41 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Meat it was the children of the pre Thatcher era that grew up under voluntary unemployment(according to you) that engaged in those riots.  You Hate her fucking guts and wish a painfull slow death on her, we know, she is a symbol to you and millions of brit leftists, blah, blah.

We did the thread a couple of days ago, that Germany and France are moving towards liberalised economies, and we know France was rioting over the longer hours, and the farmers are always rioting.

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/20/2007 1:35:43 AM   
ripples


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Ripples, I know a Biochemist PhD. who works at Tufts U. in Boston who makes about $60-$65k per year.
A Master Plumber who has roughly the same amount (in years.) of education as him in Boston can make $300-$400k per year.
<snip>

You're just repeating what I'd already said.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/20/2007 4:01:58 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Meat it was the children of the pre Thatcher era that grew up under voluntary unemployment(according to you) that engaged in those riots.  You Hate her fucking guts and wish a painfull slow death on her, we know, she is a symbol to you and millions of brit leftists, blah, blah.

We did the thread a couple of days ago, that Germany and France are moving towards liberalised economies, and we know France was rioting over the longer hours, and the farmers are always rioting.


Unemployment was high pre-Thatcher, about 1 million unemployed. Thatcher created mass unemployment Britain. Official government stats (her government) accepted there were 3.6 million unemployed, approx 11% of the work force. However, her government changed the stats on 21 occassions to bring them down to a more acceptable (to her) level. Under the same system that was used to count unemployed of the previous government, the one Thatcher accused of causing high unemployment, the number of unemployed under Thatcher was 5 million. That 5 million doesn't count the miners and steelworkers that were given early retirement at 55 or the workers moved off the unemployment register onto invalid benefit so they weren't counted in the unemployed numbers. Should government negligence  and incompetence unnecessarily destroy the livilhoods of your friends and family, I'm sure you won't be saying the government was doing a good job. Then again, maybe you would, you appear to think Bush got it right in Iraq. The figures were still bad at the end of her government. If a leftwing government was as economically as incompetent as her you would be saying it was proof that leftwing policies don't work. It was more leftwing policies that got the unemploymnent down. I am no fan of Blair but his government did crack unemployment.

People don't riot because they think its fun, they do it because there is no other way to make a fucking negligent and incompitent government take notice of their plight.

As for Germany and France liberalizing, you should look closer at what is happening in those countries. Germany is not going the way of the USA, it is cutting its own course. The Germans don't believe in the Anglo-Saxon model of laissez faire capitalism and are not pursuing that path. You will find there are still far greater social benefits in Germany than in the USA or Britain and their economy is doing well, exporting more manufactured goods than the USA. As for France, if you listen to what Sarkozy says and look at what he is doing, he isn't going to take the Anglo-Saxon model either but is more inclined to copy the Germans.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/20/2007 4:03:55 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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