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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/20/2007 4:32:44 AM

Politesub53

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So what about just prior to Thatcher and the Labour governement ? What about the winter of discontent ? Thatcher hadnt been in power long enough for the Brixton riots to be down to her policies. There was massive unemployment in the area long before she took office. As always there was a boom and bust situation, Lawson raised interest rates constantly as he was intent on joining the ERM and doing away with the pound eventually. Unemployment would have risen whoever was in power, and indeed most governments play about with figures, changing the way they are brought about so unemployment figures dont look to bad.
Thatcher wasnt perfect but than again who is, once they get in office. The problem is that no one government is in power long enough to have consistent transport health and housing policies that would benefit everyone. Handing these over to private companies isnt the answer, metronet is proof of that. I really wish there was an answer to all this but left wing or right wing, neither has a proper soloution.

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/20/2007 6:23:24 AM

meatcleaver

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The worst riots in modern Britain were the poll tax riots. I accept the inner cities had been left to decay over decades.

As for Thatcher, I was a net gainer. My wife worked for one of the big accountancy firms in the city of London and twice received 50,000 pound plus bonuses and 25,000 pound bonuses were not abnormal for her in that period due to the company administrating over all the bankruptcies of major industrial companies. Her boss regularly got bonuses in excess of 500,000 pounds. He nicknamed Thatcher 'Santa Claus' and said of her, 'She clearly hasn't got a clue how to run a country and for our sakes, let's hope she doesn't learn.'

The winter of discontent and this is according to the editor of the Evening Standard (yep, he was a tory and was proud of it) at the time, said, the winter of discontent was largely something created by the media. He said himself, the papers sent photographers round to find photographs to prove there was a crisis and Fleet Street were trying to out do each other as to who could get the best photo. There was a front page photo in the Standard of a rat creeping out of a pile of rubbish and some sensational hesdline. He said the rat was called Fred, who he often passed on the way home from work as he passed the rubbish put out at the back of the near by restuarants. Yes there was some industrial unrest in the councils but it was localized and sensationalised. Where my parents lived they never noticed anything out of the ordinary. However, if something happens in London, the whole country has to know about it and suffer for the consequences.

But I accept the winter of discontent has entered into the national myth and no amount of facts is going to dislodge it.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/20/2007 6:38:16 AM >

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/20/2007 9:40:31 AM

Politesub53

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Hi Meatclever...... We will have to disagree which riot was worse. There were over 300 police officers and 50 civilian injured in Brixton plus well over 100 buildings set on fire and petrol bombs used for the first time in the UK. Ironically i went to school in Brixton and worked on the construction site that was set on fire during the poll tax. The main cause in Brixton was the constant stop and searches of mainly black youths. Unlike the Poll tax riots brixton was spontaneous, which to me is more scary.
As for the winter of discontent, what about the strikes that took place, forget a few pictures in the press but what about reality. Lorry drivers, Council workers, dustman, car workers, hospital staff ( Not medical ) all of these were on strike that winter and all due to Dennis Healy trying to set a wage cap. The backlash from the Government was the treatment of the miners and print workers during Thatchers years. No one can claim to have done the right thing in those times. Not the governements ( both parties ) and not the unions.
My opinion is long term policies and proper education, is the best solution, sadly technology is taking the place of way too many manual jobs.
Too many politicians world wide base polices not on whats best for the people, but on what wins most votes.

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/20/2007 11:09:19 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ripples

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Ripples, I know a Biochemist PhD. who works at Tufts U. in Boston who makes about $60-$65k per year.
A Master Plumber who has roughly the same amount (in years.) of education as him in Boston can make $300-$400k per year.
<snip>

You're just repeating what I'd already said.

Ripple, perhaps so but I was also giving you the reason for it.
Supply and Demand.
Seems most young people would rather sit by a computer these days than get their hands dirty.
Too many "computer sitters" and the wages go down.
In the 1980's in the U.S.some of the Law Schools actually closed their doors for a few years because there were too many lawyers.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 7/20/2007 11:12:39 AM >

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/20/2007 12:02:03 PM

meatcleaver

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polite- I was working in Germany at the time of the winter of discontent. I never used to read or listen to the british media when a colleague brought a paper to work and on seeing the headlines I phoned home to my parents to find out what was going on. They said nothing or at least nothing where they are, though to listening to the TV and reading the papers you'd think the world was falling apart. I have since read and I've been trying to find a link but can't, that there were just as many days lost through strikes in Germany in 1979 as there were in the UK. The real reason for British decline was bad management and lack of investment.

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/20/2007 5:31:06 PM

luckydog1

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I was a young teen at the start of the Thatcher era, so can't speak to the specifics of the winter of disconent or exactly when the mood shifted to what in England. I do know that I loved the band the Clash, and they were pretty pissed off about things in England before Thatcher took office. So I do not think your simple explanation is even close to accurate. And why do the Urban people not count in your system?

In America there were millions of people who never saw a hippy or anything close to a race riot in the 60s and 70s (except on TV), yet to pretend the upheaval was just a national myth seems foolish. That Thatcher is the cause of all Bad is just an ideological myth I would posit.

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/21/2007 3:27:51 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I was a young teen at the start of the Thatcher era, so can't speak to the specifics of the winter of disconent or exactly when the mood shifted to what in England. I do know that I loved the band the Clash, and they were pretty pissed off about things in England before Thatcher took office. So I do not think your simple explanation is even close to accurate. And why do the Urban people not count in your system?

In America there were millions of people who never saw a hippy or anything close to a race riot in the 60s and 70s (except on TV), yet to pretend the upheaval was just a national myth seems foolish. That Thatcher is the cause of all Bad is just an ideological myth I would posit.

Lucky, unless you haven't noticed, Britain is just a little teeny bit smaller than the USA. From where my parents lived you could easily have a day trip to London and be at the Scottish border in the same amout of time. Bought east coast and west coast are no more than 2 hours away.

As for Thatcher, just cheack the economic statistics. They will tell you the story.

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RE: Revival in Europe? - 7/21/2007 12:09:01 PM

luckydog1

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Yes meat there was a world wide slowdown occuring in the late 70s-early 80s. But it started pre thatchter, and you know it. Your fanatasy that everything was great, then thatchter came along is nonsense, and you know it. You are the one pointing out that Children of the Dole grew up with no working models or ethic, and the specific people you cited were pre Thatchter Children. Back when all the unemployment was voluntary (according to you). I pointed out where people were quite upset before Thatcher took over. I realise you cherish your myth and will nto accept any sort of reality to intrude on it. But that is all it is a myth.

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