Aswad
Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
No need to feel dense. I feel that if a reader doesn't get what I write, then I have written it poorly.
Let's compromise, then: we both fell short of adequate communication.
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In a relationship where the slave says they have no limits, they are still coming into the relationship with an expectation (and thus, in my world, a condition) of: the Master will do as they please.
To my mind, this is more a matter of coming to the relationship with an understanding of its nature.
Since slavery is the nature of the relationship, this does not seem a condition, but a qualifier.
Of course, others may factor the issue differently, as you have done.
The distinction is subtle, in any case.
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It is expected that this will happen, thus it is a condition, albeit a very open-ended condition, of the relationship.
Except insofar as one uses the absolute sense of the word "unconditional", I do not see this as a condition, as such, but rather as a qualifier; a description of the nature of the relationship, whereas I see conditions as properties "attached" to the relationship. Again, you may factor the boundaries between the concepts differently.
It seems to me that any useful discussion of "unconditional vs conditional", particularly when the qualifier "always" is applied, needs to deal with it in a less than absolute sense of the word, since it otherwise all comes down to a game of interpreting the word. As it is, the topic would, IMO, be better raised again in another thread with another wording that relates more closely to the discourse one seeks, unless affirmation of truisms is the intended discourse.
As I commented on the "insane geniouses" thread, everything we know and relate to breaks down neatly into the categories "null", "void" and "meaningless" in the final limit, thus discussing perfect absolutes and truisms is nothing but reiterating these categories under different names with a lot of verbose word-padding to wrap them in.
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We're human. Therefore, in my world, we simply cannot do away with expectations, and thus, demands.
Agreed, agreed and disputed on a technicality. 
Again, I do not equate expectations to demands, though I see where you're coming from.
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Yes, demands SHOULD be stated, but they are often not.
This is one of the reasons why I actively dig for them. Informed consent, in my opinion, is an ethical prerequisite to consensual slavery. And it cannot be informed unless all the information is on the table, whether by interaction (my approach), or by explicitly laying out the details from one or both sides; asking questions is helpful to understanding if the prospective partner understands something.
If I were to say "absolutely no limits", I would mean it in a literal sense, and not expect any takers. If anyone did bite, I would make sure they understand that this does not entail any of their assumptions or expectations being guaranteed by me, whether explicitly or implicity, although I cede the applicability of the qualifier "will do as he pleases" is, at least, close to a guarantee. This before taking them on.
But what I see happening, more often than I like, is that a would-be slave specifies something that is fairly absolute in a literal sense, while the would-be owner trusts that the person in control is going to adhere to "common sense", and assumes that certain things will not happen, frequently being unable to conceive of, or at least lend credibility to, the idea that things that are entirely beyond the pale for themselves may actually happen in the life they are signing up for. The owner, however, may then have different ideas about these things, and has been as explicit as s/he can think of, even asking for confirmation, but unfortunately forgetting to verify that the slave understands.
Obviously, this can lead to things going seriously wrong, or at the very least a lot of wasted time.
Hence, whether the assumptions, expectations and demands, however you break them down, are stated or not, I universally do my best to ascertain, to the extent that it gives full coverage of the things I am considering doing at any point, to them. For play, this is easy, and quick. For submission, slightly more demanding. For literal slavery, quite a challenge.
Others may be more inclined to say "this didn't work out" and let go at an early point, or have different ethical standards with regard to consent, and I don't object to that, but I am one of the good reasons for a slave not to be in a rush to use the words "no limits", and I have not failed to cover all the bases so far.
That makes the topic itchy for me, because my jurisdiction allows things that are not legal in the US, including some that I worry the mods might not like having discussed on their boards, and I have spent a fair bit of time quantifying this continuum between free and unconditionally enslaved, as well as relating this to the legal measures taken. If one is looking for romantic attachment, things work differently, but I already have nephandi for that. If we are to take on another in the household, that will be closer to a literal and historical sense of the world, and one that offered to make it unconditional would find it closer to literally so than most people on this forum seem comfortable with.
Hence, my interest in the thread, and my dismay at breaking it down to truisms and semantic bickering.
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We are then hurt nad betrayed and will often leave the marriage because our condition was no longer being met.
Though Knight of Mists may chuckle, this may not be an option in an M/s relationship.
Local jurisdiction allows a person to voluntarily surrender legal guardianship to me.
It also allows them to have the records voluntarily sealed from police inspection.
Should such a person run away, I the police would return them to me if found.
They might look into the accusations raised, but a suitable excuse is usable.
For that purpose, claiming mental illness suffices with sealed records.
If they doubt my integrity, I have plenty of police to back me up.
Of course, it couldn't happen often, and checkups may occur.
Rauwolfia keeps a checkup uninteresting for the police.
Atropa could make an "event" to back the story.
The former also quells the motivation to run.
Add restraints, and you're halfway there.
Not that this is how I'd prefer things.
Quadraplegy might be simpler.
Again, not my preference.
I guess you can see how describing further measures is of interest to only a few members of the forum.
For me, I would be content with a "regular" slave in a secondary/omega role. But if I had cause (and ethical grounds) to do so, I could elicit compliance with enough effort, though I would never overstep the bounds of what was agreed upon in advance. Hence my protocols regarding informed consent for anyone claiming to want "no limits" slavery.
The person I am today does not want to use these means. I do not know what the person I will be in ten years is going to want, and a prospective slave will have even less idea of that. I do know, however, that I will possess at least the same level of knowledge in ten years, and probably be licenced to prescribe psychotropics for personal research purposes at that time. Anyone considering an unlimited term with no conditions needs to mull that one over.
I'm not trying to cover myself here.
I'm just trying to convey the point that, in any practical sense, yes, slavery can be just as unconditional as you want it to be, and that this is why conditions IMO need to be fully covered. Otherwise, things are left to trust, which contains another unspoken expectation: that the person a slave trusts today will, years from now, be sufficiently unchanged as to not overstep the rest of that slave's unspoken expectations and preconceptions. If the match is "made in heaven", that expectation is likely to prove false. Brain tumors, dementia, alzheimers, reactive psychosis, head injuries, and a ton of other things can be the cause of overnight changes, while regular development may cause more gradual changes.
Hope I made some sense here.
It turned out longer than expected, and I'm at a loss as to how to refactor it right now.
_____________________________
"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.
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RE: All Ownership is Conditional - 
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