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RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/24/2007 11:10:37 AM

MusicalBoredom

Posts: 620
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline

Man it took forever to read all of this. I can't see any reason to argue about this point at all really. I choose not to play, have sex, or personally engage in any BDSM activities with someone who is on drugs or had been drinking. I also have choices regarding physical appearances, intellect, interests and age groups. If I chose to not engage in activities over their use of vitamin C I could do that as well (not really one my hang-ups though). I could care less what other people choose as their as parameters for picking partners.

I do not think the same about drunk driving. If someone is drunk (as defined legally) and hits my car because of that then I'm pissed. If two people make some decision about their sex life that I wouldn't and it goes awry it doesn't affect me all. They are grown ups and can make their decisions about that.

I have my reasons for my choices. One is that I used to do all of that very badly and I've been sober now for 16 years. Before this starts a rant, I have no opinion at all as to whether or not somebody should or should not drink or use drugs. I have plenty of friends that do -- most of them do it responsibly. The other reason is that I'm a freak for making sure that consent is really consent and not harmful. That's just one of my hang-ups but it's mine to have -- again, no judgment as to what others should do there.

To me this is just another one of those "you figure out what works for you" things. We have tons of those in and out of this (loosely termed) lifestyle.

Oh, there is a dead guy on another thread?

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 101

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/24/2007 11:35:26 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

FR~
Ok - lets get a little perspective here. The OP -

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

Here of late been in to some really heavy debates about drug use in the lifestyle.. I am one very much against this for a couple of reasons. First being it brings law enforcement down into our comunity.Second the term consenual seems to go out the window when there is drug use...I am sure the left and right views will come out into this Alli know is that what i call cause and effect or more then just to ones self.. I have seen Dommes that drank or do drugs before doing a scene. I have scene subs drink or do drugs before scene. what they do not know is the damage that is done.. to me this is like russian roulett only once is all it takes.. If something is ment to be safe it is ment to be a controled enviroment how can you with drinking and drugs. You can not drive a car when drinking so why should be allowed to use toys on a sub or sub let someone play with them your thoughts ?

But we are still yet to define the word drug (something I have asked the OP but for some reason has not been responded to). Obviously because ANYTHING can be a drug.

Caffine can affect perception. Sugar can give you a high. Oxygen can kill you. Being in sub space or Dom space can give you exactly the same effect as being drunk or high and make consent just as 'pointless' as it can be when taking 'drugs'. How many people play whilst having taken asprin? When taking antihistamine? What about diabetics - we have to exclude them from play now? How about eating a full meal then participating in a scene? How about breath play? Cutting and needles? Saline solutions? How about regular enemas? Oh, what about using physical force and hitting/beating/spanking/bruising someone? - thats illegal isn't it in most states/countys/countries - anal sex is illegal in many places due to sodomy laws.

In short - using that
'First being it brings law enforcement down into our comunity' as an excuse is null and void. Most of what BDSM activity is, concerns the law. So in which case - are we now suppose to outlaw MOST OF these activities? Enemas can become addictive - so there is another 'drug' that can't be used.
This is the most unreasoned response to the whole 'anti anything' debate. Be informed - and if you think that drugs is the only problem then I still repeat, you have far more to worry about on a personal level - to be frank - your own stupidity for one thing.

Peace
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 7/24/2007 11:37:15 AM >

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)

Post #: 102

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/24/2007 12:42:48 PM

ELUSIVE1

Posts: 536
Joined: 9/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

so now junkies and alcoholics are not allowed to call themselves that...shit...i must be screwed...

ETA: whoops, unathorized proper use of sarcasm, delete this from your minds or your brain will explode....

wait...i can't stop being sarcastic...must be something in the water...

"one who doth protest too much"--they say that reformed alcoholics and reformed addicts are the most judmental about usage...

_____________________________

"Words have no power to impress the mind without the exquisite horror of their reality"

*Poe
http://alt.com/blog/ELUSIVE1NC
http://users.adultspace.com/ELUSIVE1NC/

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 103

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/24/2007 12:56:46 PM

Satyr6406

Posts: 820
Joined: 3/27/2006
From: New Brunswick, N.J.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

So put people who have never taken a drug or psychotropic substance of any kind, in one group, and everyone else, from those on prescription medicine, aspirin, the occasional sip of alcohol, etc. in another group, along with the junkies and alcoholics.

Then look at how dangerous the worst examples of drug and alcohol abuse are as parents and BDSM players.

How useful is that overgeneralization?

If you're taking me to task for not excluding the people that use "drugs" for medicinal purposes, point well taken. Although, I understood the tone of the post to be about recreational drugs and technically, shouldn't need to make that clarification.

If you just wish to accuse me of over-generalization then, you lose because I was, indeed, speaking about recreational drugs and alcohol and that has been my experience. People don't spend money on marijuana to NOT get high. No one drives around and says: "Hey! Let's party! Let's go get a bag of quinine and have a ball!"

Be that as it may, the use of anything to alter your perception, to me, will always be dangerous during certain activities; most especially those activities where another human being is placing their well being in my care.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

_____________________________

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Former Vice-President Gore didn't invent the internet but, he DID make up global warming!

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 104

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/24/2007 7:42:03 PM

ChainsandFreedom

Posts: 222
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline

basically, this thread has degenerated into "drugs are bad" and "yay for drugs". It seems everyone agrees not to play when they or theirs reach a point which is considered 'too high'-and lets call a spade a spade. Too loopy from your meds or too drunk are still both highs. Laudnum, heroin, Valium and coke used to be common medicenes just as adderal, vicodan, prozac, ect are today: drugs are anything that get you high. Many of them have a point beyond hedionism. And while on them, for whatever reason, you are high. Why mince definitions?

So lets bring it back to the lifestyle. You can enjoy the lifestyle even though many in the world would try to talk you out of it and condemn you and you have to keep it a secret. why dont the druggies and those who love them just go catch a buzz or a contact high with those who understand them and let the prudes feel both self richous and uncool in their own opposite circle. We all have what can loosely defined as 'fetishes' or 'kinks'-but we're NOT all the same, we are NOT only one community, we DON'T have to be, we all have differing standards, and personally, I think its alot better that way.

(in reply to Satyr6406)

Post #: 105

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 5:11:36 AM

LeatherBentOne

Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeatherBentOne

Those who indulge will always find ways to justify, rationlize or minimize their usage. Those who dont, will forever take their stand.

For me, what one does is their own business, provided they are educated and disclose useage to those they play with. My choice is no alcohol, no illegal drugs, and full disclosure of medications so I can be aware of side effects, contraindictions and any necessary precautions.

That's how I prefer to live my life and that doesnt stop me from wishing others would do the same. However, I resent someone trying to push illegal drugs/alcohol on me as much as those who try to cram their self-righteous viewpoints of what others should do down the throats of said others.

We make choices. We take or run away from the responsibilty of those choices. Some choices are good ones, and some are disasterous. But, there's always one thing we can never control ~ the actions of others, no matter how much we like or dislike them for whatever reasons that be.

I can honestly say I have never been to any function where drugs or alcohol were'pushed'on anyone...again- personal choices

Im not specifically speaking of a "function" here. Also, I find that since I dont use alcohol or drugs, when Im around those who do, they often try to encourage me to use them. In that sense, they "push." Im not speaking of pushers as those who peddle drugs on street corners or in elementary school play grounds. Im speaking of one pushing their viewpoints on others.

If you read my post in its entirety, minus the word "function" which I never used, and "pushers" as it is incorporated in the same sentence as my comparison on differing viewpoints, you will see that Im all for one's personal choice, even when it differs from my own. Relax.

LBO

(in reply to ELUSIVE1)

Post #: 106

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 6:18:21 AM

adoracat

Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline

to me, taking/using/however you wish to say it, something that can potentially cloud your senses when playing/scening/engaging in BDSM activities is a poor decision.

perhaps your reaction time is a bit slowed, perhaps you think that pushing your limits just that little bit more is a good thing, so many things have the possibility of going wrong.

the legallity/illegality aside, clouded senses when you are engaged in potentially risky behavior is never a good idea.

kitten, who knows that each person also has the free will to decide for themselves what to do in this scenario.....

(in reply to LeatherBentOne)

Post #: 107

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 8:37:48 AM

ShellyD

Posts: 207
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline

I have two points to add, as it's been a long thread I will keep it short.

First being, endogenous endorphins are the most addictive I have known, these are the chemicals released by the body/ brain in reponse to physical and psychological extremes. I suspect most here are addicted to these.

Secondly, I can't make a statement of absolute truth as there has been no research I can find in the field of S&M and the chemical response, but I believe the receptor sites in the brain are blocked/full of/loaded by drugs, which possibly reduce the experience gained from the endogenous endorphins gained from a deep scene and pain, so, although I don't mind a joint, it seemed a waste of the better high I get from pain.

< Message edited by ShellyD -- 7/25/2007 8:40:36 AM >

(in reply to adoracat)

Post #: 108

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 9:02:28 AM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

endorphin is short for endogenous morphine...naturally produced and regulated morphine in response to a painful stimulus, and just like regular morphine you can build a tolerance and have withdrawl symptoms...it can be a physical addiction...what makes it fall under the symptoms of the disease of addiction is your reaction to it...

i just have one question...if theres nothing wrong with your alcohol and pot use, why do you have to compare it to something else that has absolutely no addictive qualities? like tylenol and oxygen...and as for diabetes meds, i am required to take those before i can be played....of course going into a coma isn't the desired effect of a scene usually...so maybe we'll make an exception for this one....

edited cause the first word was spelled wrong

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 7/25/2007 9:03:22 AM >

(in reply to ShellyD)

Post #: 109

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 3:35:03 PM

onegoodgirl

Posts: 126
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Several points I'd like to observe:

1. People are free to make their own decisions, including "bad" decisions. That's the nature of freedom.

2. Within the context of full disclosure (ie: the drug use is known and discussed), whatever two (or more) adults consent to is fine by me.

3. Most (not all) people have concluded that the use of drugs (and/or alcohol in excess) can have deleterious consequences on a scene relative to perception, consent, impaired motor function, etc.... and ultimately upon the assumption of risk.

4. Most (not all) clubs, groups, dungeons, organizations, and individuals have chosen not to associate with people who choose to engage in drug use when they scene. If you choose to use drugs when you scene, you may have to do so privately.

John

/echo

_____________________________

"This aint a scene.. it's a god-damned arms race!" - Fall Out Boy

http://www.myspace.com/bellaemiliana

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 110

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 6:19:27 PM

PairOfDimes

Posts: 324
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline

I don't drink, and I don't especially like drinking-heavy environments. However, I've played with people who have had a glass of wine (this means co-topping with them in some cases, and topping the drinking person in other cases) and I haven't noticed any difference between a bit of alcohol and cold sober, save when I could taste the alcohol in their mouths. Similarly, I've allowed a person to drive me home after that person had one drink while we shared dinner, and I've felt confident in my safety. As with so many things, I think it's a matter of moderation and choosing the risk one believes appropriate.

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)

Post #: 111

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 7:40:59 PM

Rockwell

Posts: 63
Status: offline

What about 'date rape' drugs?

heard some stories. Not exactly SSC.

(in reply to PairOfDimes)

Post #: 112

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 8:45:46 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

If we told everyone who was taking prescription drugs/drank two or more cups of caffeine/smoked more than 2 cigarettes a day/drank more than one glass of wine a day/exercised to the point of getting endorphin rushes that they were unfit to do kinky stuff, you'd have really small munches and parties.

Nice to see others pick up on this. The thing is, there is no distinction between drug and not-drug. To the body, it's all the same. It comes in, does its thing, and leaves. Some things we put into the body will do things that are a problem in the context of a scene, other things not so much. And the body produces a pretty wide range of drugs on its own, many of which are produced during a scene, including opioids, stimulants and so forth.

Of course, it seems to be beyond the average person to keep track of what these things actually do in the body, which is fine. A lot of over-the-counter drugs are seriously bad in the context of a scene. A lot of prescription drugs, and some illegal ones, are not a problem at all. The doctors often don't know well enough what they do, either. So it just comes down to the same thing as always: communicate, and don't play if you don't trust your partner.

Sleep deprivation should also be mentioned. That's generally a showstopper for me.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 113

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 8:49:07 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbob726

Same goes for any drugs that have any intoxifying effect.

That rules out nicotine, and thus anyone who smokes.
It also rules out people who work out a lot.
And people who are in love.
And many parents.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to mrbob726)

Post #: 114

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 8:51:23 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Same could be said when a person is spaced - dom or sub - makes no difference.

Definitely. If one is inclined to use the vague "hard" vs "soft" drugs distinction, then this is definitely "hard" drugs.
I don't see why it should matter whether it originates inside the body or not.
There are strong parallels to entheogenic drug use in all BDSM.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 115

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 8:56:29 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: switchsecrets

they say alcohol (and i'm sure certain drugs) amplify your nature.

"They" also say whipping a person is evil.
"They" are subtly wrong on both counts.

Alcohol disinhibits certain pathways, which means a person who usually suppresses a part of their fundamental nature will seem very different under the influence of alcohol. While I have never done such activities under the influence of alcohol, I will say that this is for the same reason I don't do it when low on sleep: my motor skills drop after 3 units or so, and my ability to pick up on subtle cues is slightly lower. However, people have met me after 6 units and not been able to tell the difference.

In short, there is some truth to it, but it is an oversimplification.
That said, alcohol is definitely one of the poorer choices.
Its influence can be as profound as subspace.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to switchsecrets)

Post #: 116

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 9:06:50 PM

onegoodgirl

Posts: 126
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline

How about...just "Do whatever you want.. just keep it the far away from me!"... does that jive with you?

Seriously.. I've had some scary experiences with Dominants who were under the influence of controlled substances.. no thanks. What you do on your own time is cool but you're not swinging anything around me if you're not 100% focused.

_____________________________

"This aint a scene.. it's a god-damned arms race!" - Fall Out Boy

http://www.myspace.com/bellaemiliana

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)

Post #: 117

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 9:08:16 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I have reached the conclusion that we just might have God or maybe a lesser God possibly only a prophet in our midst (Domiguy sighs...a bit dejected at the thought of only being a prophet)

Well, I'd hazard paraphrasing Noam Chomsky here... "Prophet" means "intellectual".
A prophet is one who thinks, and comes up with answers that others dislike.
Years later, their thoughts are shown to have been true.

At this point, they are conferred the title "prophet", and construed to have seen the future.
Those who gain the title in life are usually remembered as "false" prophets".
To see the future is to see the present and reflect on what it should be.
Later, that comes to pass, or the world comes to naught.
In the latter case, nobody cares, anyway.
Really a win-win scenario, thinking.

That said, a burning Bush that refuses to go out until the words "I am that I am" and some lines about leading the people back into slavery, and "I'll get back to you with some commandments for that later", are spoken... it would really do wonders.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 118

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 9:09:44 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

is there no differenece between natural brain chemicals and artifically added substances attempting to reproduce said natural brain chemicals with no regard for the "normal" process of procuring them?

Very little.

And few brains are perfectly "normal".

Once you add subspace et al to the mix, it all goes out the window.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 119

RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 9:18:29 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

there is a massive difference.

No.

For conclusive evidence, add a µ-antagonist, add a 5HT2A-antagonist, cut dietary DLPA, and play.

This should reliably block all routes of entry to subspace.

Conversely, µ-agonists, 5HT2A-agonists, and PEA will all replicate different aspects of it.

quote:

natural chemicals such of as endorphines respond to what the body needs kinda like a automated messuring system.

This is a complicated mechanism, with many flaws, like all aspects of our bodies.
How many people do you know with 20-20 vision, for instance?

quote:

it knows the right of mount of things even when sick.

Not at all. The regulatory mechanisms of the human body, including the brain, have operating ranges that are limited. Beyond a certain point, regulation is lost, and stuff happens. Drugs can even restore the balance, by bringing things back inside natural parameters.

quote:

external chemicals if not done correctly mess with this automated system it is why there is a problem with steriods and such..

The problem with steroids is people abuse them.
Medical use is an entirely different matter.
And you mean "anabolic steroids".

Steroids, properly, are anti-inflammatory agents, usually applied locally skin problems and so forth.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)

Post #: 120

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