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RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 9:39:23 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

I for one know to what drugs I refer and aspirin, tylenol, heart meds aren't on the list---I refer to the hardcore illegal stuff and I add to that prescribed painkillers--I've seen that impair judgement one time too many---as I said it is My personal opinion and choice.


Pity it isn't an informed choice. That particular qualifier- informed- is important to some of us.

Define "hardcore". Specify a jurisdiction for "illegal". Elaborate on "prescribed painkillers" (around here, Tylenol is prescription). Provide a way to differentiate between pain-induced impaired judgment and painkiller-induced impaired judgement.

Finally, and quite importantly, state how your sources indicate that Tylenol does not impair judgment, since it works via the exact same mechanism as cannabis, along with touching a slew of different receptors. I've definitely seen it impair judgment once too often.

If you can't accurately answer all these questions, your choice is not truly informed.

We can leave out the dietary bits for now, despite their importance in this regard.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 9:41:19 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

All of which goes back to the fact that we should be discussing impairment and possible harm and not relying upon labels that people can't even agree upon.


Quite. I am in unreserved agreement with this.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 10:01:09 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

Although, I understood the tone of the post to be about recreational drugs and technically, shouldn't need to make that clarification.


Chocolate is a recreational drug (PEA, theobromine, sugar).
How many of the girls in here have never played after having chocolate?

It's a matter of quantity. In older times, there were men who would have a lot of it to be able to satisfy the women in his harem. It is a stimulant, after all, albeit most of the effect is short-acting. At the same time, people would chew coca leaves for similar purposes; there is a unit of distance equal to the amount of time a mouthful of coca leaves will last before the effect is gone. Hardly the same thing as shooting half a gram of morphine, or diacetylmorphine (heroin, which is to morphine what asprin is to willow bark tea, from a chemical point of view).
 
quote:


Be that as it may, the use of anything to alter your perception, to me, will always be dangerous during certain activities; most especially those activities where another human being is placing their well being in my care.


The difference, in my view, is intent, well-informedness and responsible use.
Even recreational drug use can fit these criterion in a positive way.

Remember, every time we go deep in BDSM, we are inherently in the realm of recreational drug use, with the only difference being that the body is coerced to produce it, rather than it being externally introduced. The rush, the altered mindspace, the good feelings, all of these are due to coercing the body- which doesn't do this all by itself- into dumping a truckload of drugs into your system.

This parallels how "primitive" cultures use drugs, i.e. entheogens.

We are the shamans, the ones who touch our primal side to bring forth an experience that transcends the mundane, the ones who- by those means we choose, based on what we know- delve into things others dare not, the ones who embrace the ecstacies one can lose oneself in yet still retain control. And we come out of it unscathed, indeed born anew every time we stride deeper into the unknown halls of our minds.

If some among us are comfortable bringing other tools to the table, that is to their credit.

As usual, it comes down to knowing what you're doing, being aware of the risks, and making sure your partner can and does give informed consent to this. Communication and disclosure are necessary for it to work in a positive way, as is the case for any tool you might want to bring to the table.

Did you know sensory deprivation can induce experiences identical to hallucinogens?
Would you decry those who use it in the course of their play?
Are you closed to trying it yourself?

There is a world of difference between use and abuse.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Satyr6406)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 10:13:01 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rockwell

What about 'date rape' drugs?


Assuming the regular, and mostly false, sense of the word:
Used properly, with the right skills, they can make for a hell of a fantasy scene.

That said, the leading date rape drug is alcohol, and in most cases where people have been certain they were drugged, once the bloodwork is done, it turns out they just had more to drink than they thought they did. Many drugs "touted" as date rape drugs are not very well suited to the purpose (e.g. too much rohypnol will act as a stimulant, and often makes the person prone to violence, while too little does not reliably induce amnesia, nor raise compliance, nor lower motor function; it is actually one of the "cleanest" benzodiazepine hypnotics).

Most drugs that are well suited to the purpose are little known, yet easy to obtain, not scheduled, and extremely cheap. For me, as someone with a fair bit of knowledge (and first-hand experience) with a wide range of (legally prescribed) psychopharmaceuticals, it is downright scary to consider what could happen if the wrong people actually cared to study this, rather than go by hearsay.

That is not to say that date rape drugs are a hoax, by any means, just that they're hyped up.

As always, reality is more complicated.

quote:


heard some stories. Not exactly SSC.


It can be both safe, sane and consensual.

Making someone too uncoordinated to resist during a play rape fantasy, for instance.
Or, acting out an unconscious-partner fantasy or sleeping partner fantasy.
There have recently been threads on both.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Rockwell)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/25/2007 11:27:08 PM   
HardnRuff


Posts: 213
Joined: 3/17/2007
Status: offline 		Never plays when drinking, I need a clear head at all times, never know what could go wrong and I need to have all My senses to react..

_____________________________

" Weapon Of Ass Destruction" † Bitch tested slut approved †

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/26/2007 12:33:47 AM   
chellekitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

is there no differenece between natural brain chemicals and artifically added substances attempting to reproduce said natural brain chemicals with no regard for the "normal" process of procuring them?


Very little.

And few brains are perfectly "normal".

Once you add subspace et al to the mix, it all goes out the window.



while i'll give you that "few brains are perfectly 'normal'" and yes the reason anything can be addictive is because of those naturally occuring brain chemicals...and yes they can even kill i've been on an endorphin high and driven 30 miles home...i was more aware after 5 or 6 drinks and driving home than durring those after party times...but no body told me...uhh hey, you shouldn't drive home while your endorphin level is so high like they did with alcohol...and no i was not trying to say that this doesn't happen...what i was trying to say was that the naturally occuring chemicals in your brain rarely, if ever (not sure) kill you outright...(hmm perhaps adrenaline and a weak heart)...
but there are drugs out there that do kill...now i don't think anyone is advocating cocain or heroin use before a scene, but there were a whole lot of people speaking in absolutes...asolutely, absolutely not, whatever your view, its not all black and white..
anywho, its too late for this...take care...
chelle
the back to just one piercing girl

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/26/2007 12:52:54 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Absolutes do not fit reality, and unless anyone knows a way to make reality conform to our own perceptions (please, tell me! I promise the world will look interesting the next day), then we have a choice to make. Either we let our perceptions conform to reality, or we embrace delusion.

I pick the former.

That said, sure, there are drugs that, at typical doses, will mess up play and so forth. So will a novice striking the neck hard with a single-tail. Neither is responsible, and neither has a place in WIITWD. But both can be done properly and responsibly, with a fair amount of attention to the usual things: training, risk awareness and communication.

It is definitely too late for this, though, yes.

10am here now, and some of the more horrible drugs (barbs) are telling me that I shouldn't go without sleep yet again. And I'm thinking I should listen to them, tempting as the alternative might be at the moment. An example of a bad drug doing a good thing. When used improperly, it can mess you up badly. "Proper" uses ranges from euthanasia, through insomnia and epilepsy, to giving people with severe trauma to the head a chance to survive. Potentially kinky uses include a whole range of fantasy scenarios.

It's all a matter of "right tool for the right job".


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/26/2007 6:58:37 AM   
Rockwell


Posts: 63
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rockwell

What about 'date rape' drugs?


Assuming the regular, and mostly false, sense of the word:
Used properly, with the right skills, they can make for a hell of a fantasy scene.

That said, the leading date rape drug is alcohol, and in most cases where people have been certain they were drugged, once the bloodwork is done, it turns out they just had more to drink than they thought they did. Many drugs "touted" as date rape drugs are not very well suited to the purpose (e.g. too much rohypnol will act as a stimulant, and often makes the person prone to violence, while too little does not reliably induce amnesia, nor raise compliance, nor lower motor function; it is actually one of the "cleanest" benzodiazepine hypnotics).

Most drugs that are well suited to the purpose are little known, yet easy to obtain, not scheduled, and extremely cheap. For me, as someone with a fair bit of knowledge (and first-hand experience) with a wide range of (legally prescribed) psychopharmaceuticals, it is downright scary to consider what could happen if the wrong people actually cared to study this, rather than go by hearsay.

That is not to say that date rape drugs are a hoax, by any means, just that they're hyped up.

As always, reality is more complicated.

quote:


heard some stories. Not exactly SSC.


It can be both safe, sane and consensual.

Making someone too uncoordinated to resist during a play rape fantasy, for instance.
Or, acting out an unconscious-partner fantasy or sleeping partner fantasy.
There have recently been threads on both.



Thanks, Aswad. You do know a lot about psychotropics, no doubt.

I do have first hand knowledge of rof. and qualudes given on the sly - non consent - in the scene. May be rare and I hope so.

I had ludes - i'm told - placed in a drink ( I think it was the drink) once.
Never did drugs, but heard about how this one felt second hand.

During the scene ( I was on bottom) I felt rubbery, bouncy. felt pain but disassociated from it. Later - he told me - ( Should he have told me first?)

It WAS fun. It was a trip. Made the scene - a rough one - a hell of a lot of fun.


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/26/2007 8:34:24 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rockwell

I do have first hand knowledge of rof. and qualudes given on the sly - non consent - in the scene. May be rare and I hope so.


I'd certainly hope it's rare. I would more more concerned about quaaludes than benzos.

quote:


( Should he have told me first?)


Well, it worked out, but, yeah, he should have told you first, and asked.

If we throw consent out the window, we might as well pick up random passerby.

quote:


It WAS fun. It was a trip. Made the scene - a rough one - a hell of a lot of fun.


Glad you had fun. There are "better" ways to get the same result, though, IMO.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Rockwell)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/26/2007 9:36:09 AM   
Rockwell


Posts: 63
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Glad you had fun. There are "better" ways to get the same result, though, IMO.



Don't I know it. Oh yeah.

100% agreed - no consent.  I would have said get the F* out of here if he asked.

I should be pissed. I'm not - stupid maybe.
Just 'cause it turned out good. He took a dangerous chance.
I am relieved  it is uncommon. Glad others don't see it as ethical.
Just that shit happens - to girls and guys. 

Take care

< Message edited by Rockwell -- 7/26/2007 9:40:21 AM >

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/26/2007 11:40:33 AM   
sjacket


Posts: 152
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty


i just have one question...if theres nothing wrong with your alcohol and pot use, why do you have to compare it to something else that has absolutely no addictive qualities? like tylenol and oxygen...


I cannot live without my oxygen.  I need it baby.......   sorry, being snarky for levity's sake

_____________________________

Have you hugged your Sadist today?

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/26/2007 11:52:30 AM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		Just give me a heavy bottom for a energy fix and I'm high for days!  Okay hours
Boy! Lot's of opinions here this is groovy!


_____________________________

"Flirting is part of the job description." DJ Jesus (Lucy Daughter Of The Devil)

Vanilla Official Music Page http://www.myspace.com/djzulu

(in reply to sjacket)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/26/2007 6:45:10 PM   
Rockwell


Posts: 63
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(in reply to DarkDaddyZ)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/28/2007 1:46:25 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

FR~
Ok - lets get a little perspective here.  The OP -

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

Here of late been in to some really heavy debates about drug use in the lifestyle.. I am one very much against this for a couple of reasons. First being it brings law enforcement down into our community.Second the term consensual seems to go out the window when there is drug use...I am sure the left and right views will come out into this Alli know is that what i call cause and effect or more then just to ones self.. I have seen Dommes that drank or do drugs before doing a scene. I have scene subs drink or do drugs before scene. what they do not know is the damage that is done.. to me this is like russian roulett only once is all it takes.. If something is ment to be safe it is ment to be a controled enviroment how can you with drinking and drugs. You can not drive a car when drinking  so why should be allowed to use toys on a sub or sub let someone play with them  your thoughts ?


But we are still yet to define the word drug (something I have asked the OP but for some reason has not been responded to).  Obviously because ANYTHING can be a drug.

Caffine can affect perception.  Sugar can give you a high.  Oxygen can kill you.  Being in sub space or Dom space can give you exactly the same effect as being drunk or high and make consent just as 'pointless' as it can be when taking 'drugs'.  How many people play whilst having taken asprin?  When taking antihistamine?  What about diabetics - we have to exclude them from play now?  How about eating a full meal then participating in a scene?  How about breath play?  Cutting and needles?  Saline solutions?  How about regular enemas?  Oh, what about using physical force and hitting/beating/spanking/bruising someone?  - thats illegal isn't it in most states/countys/countries - anal sex is illegal in many places due to sodomy laws.

In short - using that
'First being it brings law enforcement down into our comunity' as an excuse is null and void.  Most of what BDSM activity is, concerns the law.  So in which case - are we now suppose to outlaw MOST OF these activities? Enemas can become addictive - so there is another 'drug' that can't be used.
This is the most unreasoned response to the whole 'anti anything' debate.  Be informed - and if you think that drugs is the only problem then I still repeat, you have far more to worry about on a personal level - to be frank - your own stupidity for one thing.

Peace
the.dark.

 
ok let me set something straight. anything that impairs your normal operation from physically or mentally doing things in scene based on chemical intake is wrong. why !!!! Cause tons of case studies say so and that would take a life time to list every piece of research material .. which most of the people would be bored to read.... for me to put on here to put it to the point of not harming someone else because your to cushy to do the right thing and keep someone else out of danger  .......
just the way it is !!!!! common sense goes a long ways

< Message edited by LATEXBABY64 -- 7/28/2007 1:56:40 PM >

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/28/2007 9:32:22 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		LATEXBABY64,

The matter is one of risk-awareness, intent and responsibility.

Drugs don't change the requirements, IMO.

I'd be happy to have you list all the research material. In fact, I have read about a hundred thousand pages of research on psychotropics and neurochemistry since I started reading up on that field, and if I do decide to go the cumbersome route of getting a licence to practice, I expect to pass a million by the time I retire. I do not easily bore.

But let's get a few important points in first... Stick to peer-reviewed papers. That scratches most of them. Ideally, you want papers that have been cited by other peer-reviewed papers that don't refute them. This limits the number further. English language ones are viable for me. Russian and so forth is not. You should still be left with quite a number of papers, though, I imagine. A better approach, if you hadn't insisted on covering "tons" of it, would be to stick to review papers, like those from National Institute for Clinical Excellence, etc.

It quickly becomes apparent that there is a whole lot more speculation than substance, and that the field is a whole lot more complicated than the average player can deal with. If you bother to read my posts on pages 6 and 7, this should be clear. Note that there are also conditions that require medication that do not impair the ability to consent.

Allergies come to mind, typically requiring antihistamines, which can affect reaction time and various other parameters. Asthma, typically requiring beta agonists that may or may not have some systemic leakage, depending on dose and other factors, often along with steroids. Diabetes, typically requiring some form of insulin response modifiers, many of which affect a whole slew of things. Bipolar, typically requiring a mood stabilizer, which may very well be an abusable substance.

For people with these conditions to be denied treatment in the interests of some false ideal of purity seems not only counterproductive, but downright dangerous.

Try looking deeper into the matter of what does what, how, and why.

You will find your "common sense" does not hold.

"Common sense is the sum of prejudices accumulated before adulthood."
- A. Einstein


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/29/2007 6:38:25 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Oddly one-sided thread, really.

Since it died, how about asking whether there are any people out there with positive experiences to report?


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/29/2007 6:40:16 PM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Oddly one-sided thread, really.

Since it died, how about asking whether there are any people out there with positive experiences to report?


I have SEVERAL.

I had a blade so I used it on my slave, she bled it was pretty and we were so high from the cutting.

Now that's drugs in the lifestyle!

_____________________________

"Flirting is part of the job description." DJ Jesus (Lucy Daughter Of The Devil)

Vanilla Official Music Page http://www.myspace.com/djzulu

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/30/2007 1:48:24 PM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

Here of late been in to some really heavy debates about drug use in the lifestyle.. I am one very much against this for a couple of reasons. First being it brings law enforcement down into our comunity. Second the term consenual seems to go out the window when there is drug use...I am sure the left and right views will come out into this Alli know is that what i call cause and effect or more then just to ones self.. I have seen Dommes that drank or do drugs before doing a scene. I have scene subs drink or do drugs before scene. what they do not know is the damage that is done.. to me this is like russian roulett only once is all it takes.. If something is ment to be safe it is ment to be a controled enviroment how can you with drinking and drugs. You can not drive a car when drinking  so why should be allowed to use toys on a sub or sub let someone play with them  your thoughts ?


i think that's just another reason why many subscribe to the RACK way of thinking then to the SSC way of thinking.

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/30/2007 2:01:04 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Yup - Common sense.  Goes a hell of alot further than making a blanket statement about 'drugs'.
 
Peace
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Drugs in the lifestyle - 7/30/2007 5:23:18 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Yup - Common sense. Goes a hell of alot further than making a blanket statement about 'drugs'.


I think you will find that this is quite uncommon sense.
A blanket statement is actually, tragically, common "sense".


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 140
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