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RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/26/2005 5:28:29 PM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
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quote:

I would say that for a portion of those that say "I don't understand it" or "I think it's weird" or "Why on earth would someone do that?", it's about lack of openness to other people's kink. Those who add "But hey, live and let live" demonstrate a simple lack of understanding yet demonstrate tolerance and openness.


Yes, thank you. I was over simplifying.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/26/2005 5:43:33 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:


my inner security thing i guess, stems from the ones that email me and tell me to buy them things from online wishlists, and, those i have gone to visit tell you 2 days later, by the way, if you become mine i want you to buy me a house.
this is MY personal hangup on it. oh yeah, and those, if you are not white collar professional do not email me. you MUST have a college degree and be successful.


so everyone, i hear what YOU say,...but now PLEASE? what do you think of what i just mentioned?
thank you ALL.


I hear what you say. It sucks to be sollicited for something you want no part of, right? Trust me, as a Domme with a profile on several online communities, I know what that is like!

I have tons of submissive boys emailing me saying "please dominate me!", sometimes they even leave out the "please". That is when I make use of my block button rather then my *post a rant about it on the collarme message boards* button.

So lonewolf05, save your typing energy for something productive. The block function is a click of the mouse and then it's forgotten!

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to lonewolf05)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/26/2005 5:44:35 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

I would say that for a portion of those that say "I don't understand it" or "I think it's weird" or "Why on earth would someone do that?", it's about lack of openness to other people's kink. Those who add "But hey, live and let live" demonstrate a simple lack of understanding yet demonstrate tolerance and openness.


Yes, thank you. I was over simplifying.



Well I think you did have a point Chris. I think that it applied to a small portion only though. And I love seeing you so gutsy on a limb. That's like *forum edgeplay*!

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to onceburned)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/26/2005 6:02:42 PM   
fillepink


Posts: 124
Status: offline 		o yes....at my age..available men are generally divorced, as am i. and there is baggage. some of it is delightful; kids and maybe even grandchildren. some of it is dark; and i think after years of therapy TALKING will never replace TRUSTING someone. but it's also a wonderful age, when the responsibilities of parenthood have lessened and changes in life (e.g., retirement) are inevitable and liberating.

a Man is not appealing to me if He is not financially responsible. i myself do not need to be rescued; i have a small pension and live at the poverty level but still get by...and life has many joys which have nothing to do with money. but i suffered from financial anxiety for many years and do not desire it again; i'd rather live in a shack i could afford than a mansion i had to sweat the mortgage payments on.

i have a bias against millionaries...i have met many and never respected one..their manners are terrible and their egos are too wrapped up in their money. but i suppose each person deserves to be given at least the respect that he is unique. i did have one man who lived someplace very beautiful who emailed me. i asked questions about his character..and he kept replying.."but look where i live!". well, live alone then.

some people are stuck; want/need to repeat the same bad relationship over and over; but one advantage of age is being able (sometimes) to notice this and move on. my motto is "no drama, no bullshit". my current life isn't all i want it to be; but it is peaceful. i am unwilling to disturb that for a Man. the lover-as-rollercoaster lost its appeal a long time ago.

i am searching for a Man of character, to add joy to my life; and yes, i'd have to find Him attractive; but i grow attracted to a Man; it's not entirely visual. i suppose we'd share our "back stories" but i sort of think of D/s as my "new life"; and am less and less concerned with the sorrows of the past.

i find life -- including the men i hear from here -- a winding road with so many twists and turns, so much to look forward to and be surprised by...i find my own flaws are part of what make me human and that even they are changing...i think it's a wonderful process if you allow it to happen. fillepink




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(in reply to onceburned)
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RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/26/2005 6:26:32 PM   
MaitresseEden


Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

Creating happiness with a true love is often just as difficult as sitting back, doing nothing, and being unhappy. Good relationships take lots and lots of work. And there is no perfection, even with your perfect man/woman, Dom/me, etc., nothing is perfect.


Well Said!

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to fourpeas)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/26/2005 6:35:05 PM   
MaitresseEden


Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

imy inner security thing i guess, stems from the ones that email me and tell me to buy them things from online wishlists, and, those i have gone to visit tell you 2 days later, by the way, if you become mine i want you to buy me a house.
this is MY personal hangup on it. oh yeah, and those, if you are not white collar professional do not email me. you MUST have a college degree and be successful.


so everyone, i hear what YOU say,...but now PLEASE? what do you think of what i just mentioned?
thank you ALL.



Personally speaking I think it is a way to seperate the serious deep thinkers from those who just want a free ride. HOWEVER, I see nothing wrong with being honest and saying to be compatible with me, the odds are you will have an education. I know that for me personally this is something I that is important to me. Primarily because intellectual stimulation is something that I can't live without in my relationships. I'm the first to admit that there are a myriad of people in this lifestyle, both male and female, Dom and sub who want people to prove themselves and assume the only way of doing so is by buying them things. Personally I feel feels gifts should be freely given and never asked for. That negates the who concept of a "gift" to have to ask for it.


Ms. Eden



_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to lonewolf05)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/26/2005 6:46:15 PM   
MaitresseEden


Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

a Man is not appealing to me if He is not financially responsible. i myself do not need to be rescued; i have a small pension and live at the poverty level but still get by...and life has many joys which have nothing to do with money. but i suffered from financial anxiety for many years and do not desire it again; i'd rather live in a shack i could afford than a mansion i had to sweat the mortgage payments on


I agree with you on the attractiveness of financial responsiblity and is should be but is not often a two way street. Many people do need help financially for no fault of thier own, I don't like the term "rescue" in that it implyis danger is immeniant, and often times while people may benifit from someone's assistence it doesn't necessarily imply that they are destined to peril without it. However in some cases that is very much the case. There have been times in my life that I have had to rely on the kindness of others, family, and or friends to make ends meet. Unfortunatly those situations can happen to anyone at any given moment. It is simply of matter of human kindness and "paying it forward" in my opinion. .Do we really do unto others as we wish done to us? (forgive the religious dogma I just inserted but I couldn't think of a better analogy to highlight my point).

quote:

some people are stuck; want/need to repeat the same bad relationship over and over; but one advantage of age is being able (sometimes) to notice this and move on. my motto is "no drama, no bullshit". my current life isn't all i want it to be; but it is peaceful. i am unwilling to disturb that for a Man. the lover-as-rollercoaster lost its appeal a long time ago.


you have reached the point in which you live your life on your own terms. Congrats.. I think there is something to be said for that. If we don't learn from our mistakes we are destined to repeat them.

i
quote:

find life -- including the men i hear from here -- a winding road with so many twists and turns, so much to look forward to and be surprised by...i find my own flaws are part of what make me human and that even they are changing...i think it's a wonderful process if you allow it to happen.


It is a wonderful process.. and I pain while it at times is "dramatic" is always enlightening. It is learning to be thankful for the pain, and learning that with risk and pain, we grow as humans that is critical. I'm not saying we should seek out heartache, but we should look for the postive that comes from it.. We become more self aware. Be it money issues or others.



_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to fillepink)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/26/2005 10:35:11 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaitresseEden
I totally understand that dilema Lily, However what happens when you don't have the funds to go "dutch"? I have found that while many like that idea and some want it. When I say " I'm sorry, but I can't afford that at this time, there tends to be some resentment.

I have had very little experience dating anyone with money... However, I HATE going dutch, in fact won't do it... I'm absolutely okay with inexpensive dates (to the park or movies), and am perfectly okay with paying for an event that I want to attend and want him to come along, but dutch makes me itch with discomfort.
quote:

Been there done that...
So have I.

quote:

I've taken the opposite roles in that I make it plainly clear that if they want to do something I expect them to pay. However this in turns leads them to believe that I am solely interested in thier paycheck.

Doesn't this attitude (when taken by a prospective sub) clear the path for you to meet a more appropriate person for you? It's one thing to say, I cannot afford that kind of date; it's entirely another to say I will not take you on this type of date unless you pay half in my view...
quote:

I guess what perturbs me more than anything is when I see the countless number of posts from men who complain that woman are only out for thier paycheck.. In particular you hear within the scene males complain about the Dommes who want $, or assume they just want to be taken to dinneer, etc. Perhaps if people had a greater understand of the wage disparity between men and woman they would be less likely to be so hostile about the subject. It all goes back to what BLKTALLFULLFIG said.. we need to be discussing values, more and $ less.
Ms. Eden

When I see hostile posts toward women, I simply pay attention to see how it progresses, because usually the Original poster will reveal his thinking/bias at some point either initially, or in replies disagreeing with him... It is BAGGAGE, and one that keeps people from achieving special bonds because they're always defending their things.
I don't think most men who hold on tightly to their dimes will care that there is a wage disparity.
I say if any man is happier with/loves his bank account more than he does the woman in his life, that's what he should sleep with.. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to MaitresseEden)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/27/2005 2:42:06 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline 		1

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 6/27/2005 2:45:20 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to lonewolf05)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/27/2005 2:49:04 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

I would say that for the smaller portion that goes completely righteous about how horrible it is and how it must stop and how those who participate in this kink are predators and poor schmucks just might fit your above description. I mean, if they don't like it, no one is forcing them to be a part of it, right? So why such a strong reaction?


I've said this from beginning. Your in control! And the better job you do to convince yourself of that the less worry.

It's a Man's world, always has been, probably always will be. With that said, there's nothing I find more attractive than a Woman who clearly knows that, yet gets out of bed every morning and fights to compete in it.

I absolutely love intelligent Women that stand up and fight everyday. The more fight they have the more attractive they are.



- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 6/27/2005 2:50:19 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/27/2005 4:26:03 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

I absolutely love intelligent Women that stand up and fight everyday. The more fight they have the more attractive they are.


Ah yes, the every day battle. Some days I'm all up for it, and some days I wish I didn't have to. You know, it sucks always having to be on our guards.

When a man speaks his mind, he's assertive. When a woman does, all of a sudden she is perceived as aggressive. I have my aggressive moments, sure. But overall, I am assertive. But that isn't how it's perceived.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I can understand how you can find it attractive, but to be quite honest, I'm not finding it so damn sexy anymore when it seems that I'm always fighting and not gaining much ground. Doesn't mean I'll ever give up... just means it's not making me hot ;)

- LA







_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/27/2005 4:34:59 AM   
sudja


Posts: 155
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		What has surprised me about this thread is that there has been no real difference between the responses from submissives and Dom/mes.

I know that when I am wanting to give/be my all for a person that includes never wanting them to have to worry about money and/or spending a dime.

I'm not always in a position to be able to do that, but when I have been (and sometimes even when I have not been) that's the way my relationship(s) have established themselves.

As with everything else the care to be taken is not to have it/me taken for granted, and recognizing the difference between any form of abuse and a mutually fulfilling and complementing relationship where each handles the needs of the other under agreed terms.

sudja

(in reply to MaitresseEden)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/27/2005 5:03:49 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What has surprised me about this thread is that there has been no real difference between the responses from submissives and Dom/mes.


I'm actually not surprised at all. We are all human and money matters is a human issue and has very little to do with wiitwd.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to sudja)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/27/2005 6:39:28 AM   
sudja


Posts: 155
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

What has surprised me about this thread is that there has been no real difference between the responses from submissives and Dom/mes.


I'm actually not surprised at all. We are all human and money matters is a human issue and has very little to do with wiitwd.

- LA


We'll have to agree to disagree here - I'm the first to say that first and foremost a D/s relationship is just that, a relationship.

But the fact remains that we each, Dominant and submissive, have core needs that are different from each other, and more "extreme" in terms of needing to do for and needing to be done for than the average bear.

Witness that you don't see thousands of "Pro sub" sites seeking "gifts" or other forms of tribute from Dom/mes - and you do see those "Tribute Dommes" reaping the benefits of their financial opportunism.

While Dominants and submissives each (should) wish to fulfill the needs of their partner, I suspect that if we surveyed "everybody" we would find that more submissives would include "want to shower her/him with gifts" than we would find from Dominants.

sudja


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/27/2005 9:01:38 AM   
MaitresseEden


Posts: 477
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I absolutely love intelligent Women that stand up and fight everyday. The more fight they have the more attractive they are.


Ah yes, the every day battle. Some days I'm all up for it, and some days I wish I didn't have to. You know, it sucks always having to be on our guards.

When a man speaks his mind, he's assertive. When a woman does, all of a sudden she is perceived as aggressive. I have my aggressive moments, sure. But overall, I am assertive. But that isn't how it's perceived.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I can understand how you can find it attractive, but to be quite honest, I'm not finding it so damn sexy anymore when it seems that I'm always fighting and not gaining much ground. Doesn't mean I'll ever give up... just means it's not making me hot ;)

- LA




Well Said LA.. It's getting old to constantly having to be "on guard" and fighting to be treated as equals, let alone as dominant. It can be extremely draining.

Eden


_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/27/2005 2:56:42 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sudja
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
quote:

What has surprised me about this thread is that there has been no real difference between the responses from submissives and Dom/mes.


I'm actually not surprised at all. We are all human and money matters is a human issue and has very little to do with wiitwd.

- LA


We'll have to agree to disagree here - I'm the first to say that first and foremost a D/s relationship is just that, a relationship.

But the fact remains that we each, Dominant and submissive, have core needs that are different from each other, and more "extreme" in terms of needing to do for and needing to be done for than the average bear.


I openly accept you disagreeing with me. It's healthy :) I have to disagree with you here. I do not see a D/s relationship as one where there is more extreme needing to do and to be done. I see it as a relationship where the power dynamics are clearly defined. Of course that is my perception.

quote:

Witness that you don't see thousands of "Pro sub" sites seeking "gifts" or other forms of tribute from Dom/mes - and you do see those "Tribute Dommes" reaping the benefits of their financial opportunism.


I don't see many Tribute Dommes actually. I know a lot of male subs come across them but I really have yet to meet one in real life.

Now I do see a fair share of female submissives/slaves that are not allowed to work outside the home and that have everything provided by their Master. I also hear from some of my male Dom friends that they feel like a meal ticket at times when being approached by certain female submissives - especially single mothers or those with not much post-secondary education. Ok so I expect to get a lot of flack from that comment. I hope you will understand that I have a great deal of female friends that are single mothers and/or with not much post-secondary education that are doing quite fine on their own and don't need a meal ticket and they get a great deal of respect from me. But the fact remains that there is a considerable number, well enough that I have heard this complaint often and consistently over the years, that I think it's worth considering.

<wipes the eggshells off her stilettos>

quote:

While Dominants and submissives each (should) wish to fulfill the needs of their partner, I suspect that if we surveyed "everybody" we would find that more submissives would include "want to shower her/him with gifts" than we would find from Dominants.


Well it would be fun to do the survey. Though we couldn't survey everyone, I'm sure we could get quantitative data that was statistically significant. I would start off with the hypothesis, based on this more qualitative account over the last 35 posts, that people are people, regardless of authority or gender orientation.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 6/27/2005 2:57:20 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to sudja)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/27/2005 5:16:14 PM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
<wipes the eggshells off her stilettos>


"Forum edgeplay" can lead to interesting discussions.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/27/2005 5:49:21 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
<wipes the eggshells off her stilettos>


"Forum edgeplay" can lead to interesting discussions.


Oh yes! <weg>

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to onceburned)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/28/2005 5:52:16 AM   
sudja


Posts: 155
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I openly accept you disagreeing with me. It's healthy :) I have to disagree with you here. I do not see a D/s relationship as one where there is more extreme needing to do and to be done. I see it as a relationship where the power dynamics are clearly defined. Of course that is my perception.


I had to think about this. You are right, of course, about the power dynamics, and not all D/s relationships have that manifest as Doee/doer. In fact, in some aspects the Doer is most clearly the Dom/me. I'm speaking of the jumping up and getting coffee types of things. That function, need to serve in those types of ways, is, to me, clearly part of what drives me - and what drives Her is enjoying it, needing it - not that She cannot get Her own coffee. But She likes that I want to do it, and do it for Her. It is part of what touches Her core.

But, beyond that, you are right - we each have active roles of doing in our relationship, where we do for each other, meeting each other's needs.

In a financial sense that once manifested itself as Her writing a check for something I was putting off, at great risk to myself, because I didn't have the funds (with me). She was taking care of me, and Her interest in me, in that manner.

The motivations are the same - caring for each other, taking care of each other. But we each need to do that differently, which is why it is hard for me to equate them, or the manners in which they can manifest, even when the results, or outside appearances, are similar.

quote:

I don't see many Tribute Dommes actually. I know a lot of male subs come across them but I really have yet to meet one in real life.


Heck, I'd love to find one who wanted to send bunches of money to my Mistress. In exchange, exclusively, for being allowed to do so. ::dreams::

quote:

Now I do see a fair share of female submissives/slaves that are not allowed to work outside the home and that have everything provided by their Master. I also hear from some of my male Dom friends that they feel like a meal ticket at times when being approached by certain female submissives - especially single mothers or those with not much post-secondary education. Ok so I expect to get a lot of flack from that comment.


You shouldn't, I have no doubt it's true.

However, the key is "when being approached."

If that's what the woman is seeking, then she is just another class of "do me." Not what I would call "submissive" at all. And while there is no one way to be submissive or have a D/s relationship, there are certainly things that we would most all have to agree our outside the scope of same.

If a woman's primary motivation (or man, in the case of a male submissive) is to get their rocks off, or financial needs cared for, they are not submitting - they *are* using, mutually agreed upon or not.


You quote me:
quote:

While Dominants and submissives each (should) wish to fulfill the needs of their partner, I suspect that if we surveyed "everybody" we would find that more submissives would include "want to shower her/him with gifts" than we would find from Dominants.


And respond:
quote:


Well it would be fun to do the survey. Though we couldn't survey everyone, I'm sure we could get quantitative data that was statistically significant. I would start off with the hypothesis, based on this more qualitative account over the last 35 posts, that people are people, regardless of authority or gender orientation.


Feh, that's not fair. I concur with you that "People are people."

How about some form of "Who wants to pamper the other more - in situations where there is nothing in it for them other than doing so and making their partner happy?"

After all, if a Dom/me buys their submissive something sexy to wear, or a new coffee pot, both are getting something substantive from the deal, not just something intagible.

If a submissive pays their Dom/mes bills during a rough financial period, the benefit to the submissive is the service, being allowed to serve, exclusively.

I'm not phrasing that well. I have faith you'll help. ;)

sudja


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Dick and a Paycheck - 6/28/2005 7:19:25 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sudja
more submissives would include "want to shower her/him with gifts" than we would find from Dominants.
sudja

I have NEVER read a submissive profile stating he wants to shower her with gifts... Want to send those links this way please?
I have dated/married men who had no money or made much less than I, and for the record I've NEVER called them money grubbing male bitches, because when in a relationship, one is supposed to share;
...and I for the life of me cannot imagine why a man would trust me to do all kinds of things to his body, "but stay away from my money (as if to say, even if I die in your hands, I'll die rich )"..M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to sudja)
Profile   Post #: 40
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