quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

My point is, his law didn't really make any new rules, he just provided consequences for breaking the existing laws...
There are already penalties for breaking the law.
Maybe, but deportation has become at best, a "catch&release" recycling program for criminals, and at worst, a revolving door that DESERVES to be a laughingstock for foreign criminals! Do you accept termites moving into your house, or do you call a "removal specialist"?
I may not be the best person to ask about termites...I live in an appliance box in the middle of the mojave desert where 125 degree temps discourage termites, but I do understand your point.  If you are talking about criminals in the normal sense (rape,pillage and plunder) those folks need a visit to the cross bar motel.  If you are classifying an undocumented worker as a criminal then my question is what do you want to do?  If you want to "exterminate" them we could probably get the plans for the ovens from  AG Farber (I think they were the oven makers for Hitler) but we would need quite a few more than he had since there about a hundred million poverty stricken people south of the boarder.  While that would solve your catch and release problem it most likely would generate a lot of bad press.  If the politicians just did to those who employed then what they do to whores and dope dealers then the demand would end and there would be no more undocumented laborers.  Of course that would most likely raise the cost of labor to the point where citizens would take the jobs now taken by slaves.
I was wondering when the Nazi argument would come up...Interesting how trying to keep our way of life safe makes us automatically Nazis? Can't you make up some original arguments, or even argue about the facts, rather than innuendo and character-attack?
Why bother exterminating them ourselves? We have a natural desert where they can just die...Or, since we outsource jobs, just send the illegals to some enemy country...They like invading countries where they don't belong, right? Send'em to Iraq, where a quick-breeding violent invasion force is necessary...Or to China, so they can leech off another economic powerhouse! Oh, wait...Chinese police have the authority to USE their guns, don't they? Might make them think once or twice before marching in THEIR streets...which doesn't help ours, though, does it? And the stated goal of "Bringing America's economy to its knees"...Wasn't that Bin Laden's shtick? And what about bringing tuberculosis and other diseases the First World has already "eradicated"...Isn't bioweaponry a violation of some international Conventions? At the very least, America should be able to keep out foreign criminals and diseases. We have enough of our own, thank you!

Why is he "the bad guy" for that?
He is the bad guy because he is trying to make unpaid cops out of ordinary citizens.  If you are a property owner and someone comes to rent a house or an apartment from you how do you verify that they are citizens of this country.  If you make a mistake you could lose your property.
Well, you CAN look up Social Security numbers, and make sure it matches the person who's applying. If the person's number is marked as "dead", or another state/race/etc., that becomes a very good clue...My own identity was recently "assumed" by an outsider, but they caught him: A 230-some pound illegal in New York using my identity is very likely NOT the same as 184-pound Caucasian in Missouri...
As a land lord or potential employer just how would you go about checking their social security number.  Are you suggesting that a person who is not white cannot have a name like Jones or Smith or any other Anglo sounding name and what of Latino citizens how do we know that Jose Martinez is this one or that one.  As I mentioned previously there is no such thing as a forgery proof ID.  So how do we go about telling the true citizen from the not true citizen?
Now are you trying to say that they are somehow indistinguishable? Tresspassing is a crime, ID theft is a crime...Forgery is a BIG crime...And if they can't bother learning the language, then that comprisees a good clue too!

(Make any parenting jokes you like...This DOES sound like Dr. Phil's parenting advice...and hundreds of other "experts": Provide consequences for misbehavior--and actually follow through with it...Of course, a site about Doms and subs might not be a good place to discuss consequences, right?)
And the Constitution already SUPPORTS it...Secondarily, doesn't American law only apply to Americans?
Actually it applies to everyone who is here except perhaps politicians.
Are you saying then, that occupancy confers ownership? Do I own your house/car/boat as soon as I enter it?
Having the law apply to everyone equally is not the same thing and I am sorry if you perceive it that way.
Exactly! Apply the LAW, and make it HURT the criminals...Perhaps reinstate the old ideal of chain-gangs, make them work FOR the very society they seek to infest and destroy!
Foreign invaders should not be able to pick and choose which laws they "feel" like following! Otherwise, why wouldn't Americans get the same right of self-determination, and as such, a complete breakdown of the rule of LAW, rather than just the rule of the biggest gun?

Or at least those who don't "feel" the law applies to them also don't get its protections?
Well by extension that might include any law breaker like speeders or those who smoke in non designated areas...so if they were not protected by the law then the cops could just shoot them.
Smoking isn't really a LAW except in fuel dumps.
I am afraid you are mistaken...there are SO many places where it is illegal to smoke besides fuel dumps.
Well, yes, there ARE LAWS against smoking in most urban public places, but I thought enforcing the laws made us Nazis?

Do you or do you not advocate shooting of those who enter your property without your permission?
If you think you have the right to shoot someone because they are on your property without your permission I would beg you to consult an atourney as soon as possible.  Simple trespass seldom confers the authority to respond with lethal force.  As for what I would advocate...I have killed all the people I plan on killing for the rest of my life.  I have been out of the military for thirty some  years and in all that time I have never had a serious enough reason to take another mans life...
Then what about a foreign army marching through American streets under a non-American flag? Doesn't that constitute an "undocumented war"?
Since "undocumented immigrants" are just those who didn't "feel" like waiting in line (And if they get the rights of citizens, that makes the rest of us look like the ULTIMATE chumps!), this seems to be a war where Mexican didn't "feel" like issuing a declaration of warfare first!
 
 If the BORDERS were enforced, this would be a non-issue!
But they keep entering, expecting amnesty, and lately, arrogantly DEMANDING rights that are supposed to be reserved for citizens
Perhaps you would tell me just what they are demanding.
You might want to acquaint yourself with the background of Latinos in the U.S.  you may find some of your ideas are less than accurate.
Well, the big signs said "Open the doors or we'll break your windows"...LOTS of Mexican flags on American soil...And there are lawsuits pending by illegals against the companies that hire illegals! A perverse case of our over-litigious society? Or just the ultimate case of "biting the hands that feed you"?
 
...And then they want us to provide schooling, food, even official documents in THEIR language, at no cost to them--the taxpayers foot the bill!
If I come into your store and give you money for goods am I not entitled to them?  Property taxes pay for schools so if one lives most anyplace besides under a bridge then they pay property taxes either directly with their mortgage or indirectly with rent which goes to pay the mortgage.
We have no official language in this country so it is the governments job to make itself understood to all of its citizens.
That's just it, they're NOT citizens--or at least not AMERICAN citizens...Mexico even lets them vote from America! Illegals are considered heroes! Could it be 'cause they send $50+ BILLION per year of plunder back "home"? As to the property-taxes, they are short-circuiting that by cramming DOZENS of people into "light residential" (single-family) dwellings. Excellent way to save money, but it's really cheating "the system"! Our population, if not our government, IS trying to make itself understood to non-citizens, "Your evil is unwanted here!"
Think of the huge call/E-Mail/fax/snail-mail campaign that stopped the amnesty bill!

The big question here is how can we tell if someone is really a citizen.
Social Security numbers and linguistic fluency are good gauges...231 years should be JUST long enough for immigrants, with or without consent, to learn American English, right?
Well I have been to Boston and it took me a while to understand those folks and I have been to Louisiana and I am here to tell you that Cajun, while beautiful to listen to, is damn near undecipherable.  I lived in east Texas as a child and I defy anyone to explain the difference between y'all and all o y'all...but those who speak it claim there is a difference.
The U.S. did not spring full grown 231 years ago.  We took every inch of this country (with the possible exception of Alaska) at the point of a gun.  We have made promises to those whom we have signed treaties with and broken every one of them...The word of the U.S. government is not worth spit.  
I still have my original social security card....it says right on it "not to be used for identification".  We were promised when we allowed social security to become law that it would never be used as a national ID.,, so much for another promise from the federal government.
Wait a minute? Didn't you just say we need some kind of identity to differentiate between citizens and invaders? As to learning the English language, I learned it in 2 years...Failure to learn after 231 years indicates that they are less intelligent than the previous waves of LEGAL immigrants that they keep claiming kinship with...Polish, Italians, Irish, even Asians have learned English. Through hard work and education? Hypnosis? Dark magic? Whatever the method, they learned, so either Mexicans are less intelligent than the other waves, or they're just being arrogant because there is no cutoff from their Mother Country, the way there is for other immigrant-groups? And therein lies the two big differences between this invasion and previous immigration waves:
#2: They're still PART of their home country, they only come here for access to the ATM (American Taxpayers' Money, not that other acronym, which is a machine you have to put money INTO to get money out of!)
#1: There is no end to this "wave", it's more like a constant flood! Previous waves of immigration were stopped short when they got too numerous, and therefore had time--and just plain HAD--to assimilate.
With unlimited reinforcements, the Mexicans feel no NEED to become Americans, lingually or otherwise! They've made their country JUST the way they like it: Overpopulated, violent, and diseased...We don't want them to do the same to America.
As to gunpoint negotiations, there is a stereotype of Mexican mugger/bank-robber/etc., that did NOT just spring full-grown from nowhere, it evolved from observation. In the past month, for instance, we've had almost 20 bank-robberies, all of which were committed by "Hispanics"...Oddly, noone decided to argue with them or tell them that gunpoint negotiations were invalid!
Perhaps because they wouldn't have survived long enough to make the headlines?

Consent is the real issue here...We don't mind helping, but ASK FIRST, and in LIMITED QUANTITIES.
Did we ask Mexico? Did we ask Hawaii?Did we ask Spain? 
War has been a part of life long before America existed. Mexico blew up a battleship and a fort ("Remember the Maine"/"Remember the Alamo"), but American soldiers repelled the attackers and took land from them as a punishment (Economic punishments are USUALLY more effective than simple extermination...Sometimes, the offenders don't learn, or time erases the lessons...Please note, we had to have TWO World Wars!)
Spain didn't "feel" like lending economic/military support since they'd already sucked most the gold away.
Mexico itself was originally "owned" by the Aztecs, who were a human-sacrifice cult. Rather than sacrifice their OWN, they conquered surrounding areas, and sacrificed THEIR people instead! And Spanish of that region are/were literally gold-diggers...do we really want THAT mix in America?
If the Mexican invaders just wanted land, they could settle the uninhabited areas of Arizonan desert, but that would require building their own infrastructure, rather than just leeching off ours to the point of collapse, wouldn't it?
As to Hawaii, American troops were called in to protect Europeans from armed rebellion in that area. It was later annexed to stop tariffs. Apparently, they hadn't developed the "Free Trade Agreement" stupidity back then, or else it would have resulted in a treaty called "HAFTA"...
 
..Much like you wouldn't mind giving money to the homeless,
I do not give money to the homeless.
How do you avoid paying taxes? Welfare is a sort of "involuntary wealth redistribution"...see failure of communism. Those who work hard for what they have don't like seeing invaders come in and get it for FREE! That, and as those shoplifting signs say, "Stealing just raises the price for LEGITIMATE consumers". Check the prices of your local hospital, if the illegals haven't overloaded it into bankruptcy.

 but you wouldn't open your home to unlimited numbers of them, right?
Any one who wants to come live here with me is more than welcome....The closest paved road is two miles away.  The closest power line is six miles away.  The closest water source is fifteen miles away.  The closest real town is thirty miles away.  As for stealing my stuff ...just point out the pile of rusty iron crap you are enamored of and I will help you load it.
Again, why are Mexicans invading ESTABLISHED urban areas, rather than spawning their own in vast, trackless desert(ed) areas?
Could it be they don't want the land so much as the BENEFITS of civilization, without the responsibilities/costs?
Indeed, exporting their criminals and to America saves them quite a bundle on prisons and welfare!
 
 And if you do, you could fully expect small, valuable items--especially electronics and jewelry--to turn up "missing"
The closest thing I have to jewelry I have is a set of dog tags that I have modified into a roach clip.
I'm confused...You don't have anything worth stealing, so you assume nobody does? Or is it just that those who don't have, can afford to be generous...As with those who have (possibly armed) guards to protect themselves from the consequences of the invasion?
 
. In America at large, we have "assisted housing", "free" medicine and schooling, etc
I have noticed that we have a lot of welfare for the rich in my country but the poof get pretty much the left overs.
Mandatory schools are overburdened already...So how does it benefit anyone to split them into Spanish and English...Didn't Brown vs. Board of Education crush that "separate but equal" idea?

...But the taxpayers still pay for it, and therefore, illegals ARE a net loss, since they breed more, and therefore take more, than they put in.
As I have pointed out before that is not true.
Again, you only pointed out that they MAY be putting SALES tax toward Social Security they may or may not be able to get their thieving hands on, but they still produce more children than they can take care of, because Uncle Sam will take care of the excess for them. In Third World countries, more children are a benefit, more hands in the field, etc. In First World countries, more children are merely an expense, you have to pay for their medical upkeep, schooling past high-school (if applicable), dental, eye-care, and other medical incidentals...But Americans shouldn't pay those expenses for Mexico's rejects, should they? Or put another way, a lack of organization on Mexico's part should NOT constitute an emergency to America!

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The founding fathers did not intend for the constitution to protect foreign nationals. That is an invented liberal spin of constitutional law that has for some reason become common law.

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The founding fathers did not intend for the constitution to protect foreign nationals. That is an invented liberal spin of constitutional law that has for some reason become common law.

...purely to satisfy my curiosity, can you point me at the part of the constitution that explicitly states this? Or, if it's implied rather than stated the part of the constitution that implies this?

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The founding fathers did not intend for the constitution to protect foreign nationals. That is an invented liberal spin of constitutional law that has for some reason become common law.

...purely to satisfy my curiosity, can you point me at the part of the constitution that explicitly states this? Or, if it's implied rather than stated the part of the constitution that implies this?

Philosophy, that type of argument is really a moot point.
If you enter this country "other than through a legal port of entry" you have committed a Federal Felony and are subject to, "arrest on sight."
Same for "overstaying a visa."
All those illegal alien protesters are right about "immigration reform."
We need to start actually enforcing our immigration laws and they "awakened a sleeping giant."
The only "protections" that illegal aliens have under our Constitution are in the *criminal sections* of our laws.
And, they have very few "rights" under the Constitution, they have no "right" to work in this country, bare arms, vote, hold office, have lisenses.....that list can go on for a few paragraphs!
People who try to commit illegal acts often try to pervert *our* Constitution to their criminal activity.
We have laws on "ownership" in this country.
And, it's *our* Constitution. It doesn't *belong* to people from whatever foreign country who try to sneak into the U.S.
Stealing is stealing, whether it be a car or anything else that doesn't "belong" to you.
So when the U.S. stole Hawaii that was wrong?
So when the U.S. stole half of Mexico that was wrong?
The list is longer but lets deal with just these two first.
Is it your point that it is wrong for them to steal (low wage jobs from American citizens) but not wrong for the U.S. to steal their country?


And, the U.S. Constitution doesn't extend to foreign countries or foreign nationals!
If you put a cookie on a table next to a glass of vinegar a child will go for the "cookie" every time.
Only in this case it's not their "cookie" to be grabbing.
If they try to steal the cookie you make them drink the vinegar.
Also, this pinhead judge gave the illegal aliens anonymity in a lawsuit  because as a pro illegal alien lawyer with the ACLU said, "because if "they" knew who they were "they'd" call Immigration, get these people deported and there wouldn't (be) any case."
Well fuckin DUH, isn't that what *OUR* government is *supposed* to be doing?
And that fuckin guy is "An Officer of the Court???"
Philosophy, what if I tried to tell you, as a foreign national that *you* are bound by the U.S. Constitution and could be arrested if you don't *obey* it?
How many nano seconds would it take for you to tell me to go fuck myself?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

the county i live in, cobb county georgia, just passed a law limiting the number of folks that can reside in a single family residence........it was based on a certain amount of square footage per adult......and was in response to cpmplaints about places with several families living in a small house or apt.....

they interviewed 2 hispanic ladies-one said this is pure discrimination, a way to get latinos, and we will fight it.....

the other said....this is a good thing, because we, as latinos, need to adjust to the norm in this county if we wish to reside here......

and the commissooners said this law will not be strictly enforced, but will only be used in the event of multiple complaints against a specific residence.....

imho, its all a muckin fess and theres nothing that will make everyone happy.......one city close by passed a law like the one mentioned in the op-id imagine its just a matter of time before thats struck down also.....

all that typing and i really didnt say a thing huh? lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

My point is, his law didn't really make any new rules, he just provided consequences for breaking the existing laws...
There are already penalties for breaking the law.
Maybe, but deportation has become at best, a "catch&release" recycling program for criminals, and at worst, a revolving door that DESERVES to be a laughingstock for foreign criminals! Do you accept termites moving into your house, or do you call a "removal specialist"?
I may not be the best person to ask about termites...I live in an appliance box in the middle of the mojave desert where 125 degree temps discourage termites, but I do understand your point.  If you are talking about criminals in the normal sense (rape,pillage and plunder) those folks need a visit to the cross bar motel.  If you are classifying an undocumented worker as a criminal then my question is what do you want to do?  If you want to "exterminate" them we could probably get the plans for the ovens from  AG Farber (I think they were the oven makers for Hitler) but we would need quite a few more than he had since there about a hundred million poverty stricken people south of the boarder.  While that would solve your catch and release problem it most likely would generate a lot of bad press.  If the politicians just did to those who employed then what they do to whores and dope dealers then the demand would end and there would be no more undocumented laborers.  Of course that would most likely raise the cost of labor to the point where citizens would take the jobs now taken by slaves.
I was wondering when the Nazi argument would come up...Interesting how trying to keep our way of life safe makes us automatically Nazis? Can't you make up some original arguments, or even argue about the facts, rather than innuendo and character-attack?
I have not attacked your character.  I asked you how you might solve the problem.
 
 

Why bother exterminating them ourselves?
Is it your position that they ought to be exterminated?
 
 
 We have a natural desert where they can just die...Or, since we outsource jobs, just send the illegals to some enemy country...They like invading countries where they don't belong, right? Send'em to Iraq, where a quick-breeding violent invasion force is necessary...Or to China, so they can leech off another economic powerhouse! Oh, wait...Chinese police have the authority to USE their guns, don't they? Might make them think once or twice before marching in THEIR streets...which doesn't help ours, though, does it?
This might be difficult...I have heard numbers from a few million to ten million...so the logistics of sending that many people anyplace gets sticky.
 
 
And the stated goal of "Bringing America's economy to its knees"
Now I am confused ....whose stated goal is this?
 
 
 
...Wasn't that Bin Laden's shtick? And what about bringing tuberculosis and other diseases the First World has already "eradicated"...Isn't bioweaponry a violation of some international Conventions? At the very least, America should be able to keep out foreign criminals and diseases. We have enough of our own, thank you!
This is more than a bit of a stretch.

Why is he "the bad guy" for that?
He is the bad guy because he is trying to make unpaid cops out of ordinary citizens.  If you are a property owner and someone comes to rent a house or an apartment from you how do you verify that they are citizens of this country.  If you make a mistake you could lose your property.
Well, you CAN look up Social Security numbers, and make sure it matches the person who's applying. If the person's number is marked as "dead", or another state/race/etc., that becomes a very good clue...My own identity was recently "assumed" by an outsider, but they caught him: A 230-some pound illegal in New York using my identity is very likely NOT the same as 184-pound Caucasian in Missouri...
As a land lord or potential employer just how would you go about checking their social security number.  Are you suggesting that a person who is not white cannot have a name like Jones or Smith or any other Anglo sounding name and what of Latino citizens how do we know that Jose Martinez is this one or that one.  As I mentioned previously there is no such thing as a forgery proof ID.  So how do we go about telling the true citizen from the not true citizen?
Now are you trying to say that they are somehow indistinguishable? Tresspassing is a crime, ID theft is a crime...Forgery is a BIG crime...And if they can't bother learning the language, then that comprisees a good clue too!
There are many Latino citizens...my question is how does one distinguish the citizen from the non citizen.

(Make any parenting jokes you like...This DOES sound like Dr. Phil's parenting advice...and hundreds of other "experts": Provide consequences for misbehavior--and actually follow through with it...Of course, a site about Doms and subs might not be a good place to discuss consequences, right?)
And the Constitution already SUPPORTS it...Secondarily, doesn't American law only apply to Americans?
Actually it applies to everyone who is here except perhaps politicians.
Are you saying then, that occupancy confers ownership? Do I own your house/car/boat as soon as I enter it?
Having the law apply to everyone equally is not the same thing and I am sorry if you perceive it that way.
Exactly! Apply the LAW, and make it HURT the criminals...Perhaps reinstate the old ideal of chain-gangs, make them work FOR the very society they seek to infest and destroy!
How do you feel about using the asset forfeiture laws against those who employ undocumented laborers?
 
 

Foreign invaders should not be able to pick and choose which laws they "feel" like following! Otherwise, why wouldn't Americans get the same right of self-determination, and as such, a complete breakdown of the rule of LAW, rather than just the rule of the biggest gun?

Or at least those who don't "feel" the law applies to them also don't get its protections?
Well by extension that might include any law breaker like speeders or those who smoke in non designated areas...so if they were not protected by the law then the cops could just shoot them.
Smoking isn't really a LAW except in fuel dumps.
I am afraid you are mistaken...there are SO many places where it is illegal to smoke besides fuel dumps.
Well, yes, there ARE LAWS against smoking in most urban public places, but I thought enforcing the laws made us Nazis?
Enforcing the law does not make either you or me a Nazi.  If asset forfeiture laws were enforced against those companies and individuals who hire illegal aliens, illegal aliens would not exist.


Do you or do you not advocate shooting of those who enter your property without your permission?
If you think you have the right to shoot someone because they are on your property without your permission I would beg you to consult an atourney as soon as possible.  Simple trespass seldom confers the authority to respond with lethal force.  As for what I would advocate...I have killed all the people I plan on killing for the rest of my life.  I have been out of the military for thirty some  years and in all that time I have never had a serious enough reason to take another mans life...
Then what about a foreign army marching through American streets under a non-American flag? Doesn't that constitute an "undocumented war"?
How do you know that all of those people marching were illegal aliens?  Is it at least possible that they may have been citizens exercising their constitutional right to peaceably petition the government for redress of their grievances?
 
 

Since "undocumented immigrants" are just those who didn't "feel" like waiting in line (And if they get the rights of citizens, that makes the rest of us look like the ULTIMATE chumps!), this seems to be a war where Mexican didn't "feel" like issuing a declaration of warfare first!
You may wish to look into the immigration laws that concern Mexico vis-a-vis other countries.  There is a reason why they do not wait in line.
 
 If the BORDERS were enforced, this would be a non-issue!
But they keep entering, expecting amnesty, and lately, arrogantly DEMANDING rights that are supposed to be reserved for citizens
Perhaps you would tell me just what they are demanding.
You might want to acquaint yourself with the background of Latinos in the U.S.  you may find some of your ideas are less than accurate.
Well, the big signs said "Open the doors or we'll break your windows"...LOTS of Mexican flags on American soil...And there are lawsuits pending by illegals against the companies that hire illegals! A perverse case of our over-litigious society? Or just the ultimate case of "biting the hands that feed you"?
I had not heard of that could you give me some cites to look up?  I would be most interested in reading up on that.
 
...And then they want us to provide schooling, food, even official documents in THEIR language, at no cost to them--the taxpayers foot the bill!
If I come into your store and give you money for goods am I not entitled to them?  Property taxes pay for schools so if one lives most anyplace besides under a bridge then they pay property taxes either directly with their mortgage or indirectly with rent which goes to pay the mortgage.
We have no official language in this country so it is the governments job to make itself understood to all of its citizens.
That's just it, they're NOT citizens--or at least not AMERICAN citizens...Mexico even lets them vote from America! Illegals are considered heroes! Could it be 'cause they send $50+ BILLION per year of plunder back "home"?
If by plunder you mean their wages don't you think a worker is entitled to spend his or her wages anyway they choose?  I have heard that there are perhaps ten million illegals here so that would amount to what five thousand  bux a year....something less than five hundred bux a month.
If you are making less than minimum wage and taxes are being withheld as we know they are but in most cases not being forwarded to the tax man.  If I did the math right those numbers just don't seem to add up.

 
 As to the property-taxes, they are short-circuiting that by cramming DOZENS of people into "light residential" (single-family) dwellings. Excellent way to save money, but it's really cheating "the system"! Our population, if not our government, IS trying to make itself understood to non-citizens, "Your evil is unwanted here!"
It looks to me like the government and big business are encouraging them not the opposite.
 
 
 

Think of the huge call/E-Mail/fax/snail-mail campaign that stopped the amnesty bill!

The big question here is how can we tell if someone is really a citizen.
Social Security numbers and linguistic fluency are good gauges...231 years should be JUST long enough for immigrants, with or without consent, to learn American English, right?
Well I have been to Boston and it took me a while to understand those folks and I have been to Louisiana and I am here to tell you that Cajun, while beautiful to listen to, is damn near undecipherable.  I lived in east Texas as a child and I defy anyone to explain the difference between y'all and all o y'all...but those who speak it claim there is a difference.
The U.S. did not spring full grown 231 years ago.  We took every inch of this country (with the possible exception of Alaska) at the point of a gun.  We have made promises to those whom we have signed treaties with and broken every one of them...The word of the U.S. government is not worth spit.  
I still have my original social security card....it says right on it "not to be used for identification".  We were promised when we allowed social security to become law that it would never be used as a national ID.,, so much for another promise from the federal government.
Wait a minute? Didn't you just say we need some kind of identity to differentiate between citizens and invaders?
No, I did not say that...I asked how we would be able to tell the difference...as you well know it takes little to get phony ID.  No ID is forgery proof... well not at a price we would be willing to pay.
 
 
 As to learning the English language, I learned it in 2 years...Failure to learn after 231 years indicates that they are less intelligent than the previous waves of LEGAL immigrants that they keep claiming kinship with
I do not know where you keep coming up with the 231 year thingie....we only stole half of their country about 160 years ago.  Illegal aliens have only been a problem in this country for about 80 years.
 
 
...Polish, Italians, Irish, even Asians have learned English. Through hard work and education? Hypnosis? Dark magic? Whatever the method, they learned, so either Mexicans are less intelligent than the other waves, or they're just being arrogant because there is no cutoff from their Mother Country, the way there is for other immigrant-groups? And therein lies the two big differences between this invasion and previous immigration waves:
Is there some part of the constitution or some federal law that says we have to learn English?
 
 

#2: They're still PART of their home country, they only come here for access to the ATM (American Taxpayers' Money, not that other acronym, which is a machine you have to put money INTO to get money out of!)
#1: There is no end to this "wave", it's more like a constant flood! Previous waves of immigration were stopped short when they got too numerous, and therefore had time--and just plain HAD--to assimilate.
I would suggest that your knowledge of U.S. history is a bit fuzzy, especially the part about immigration laws.
 
 

With unlimited reinforcements, the Mexicans feel no NEED to become Americans, lingually or otherwise! They've made their country JUST the way they like it: Overpopulated, violent, and diseased...
It would appear that your knowledge of Mexican culture and history is pretty fuzzy also.
 
We don't want them to do the same to America.
As to gunpoint negotiations, there is a stereotype of Mexican mugger/bank-robber/etc., that did NOT just spring full-grown from nowhere, it evolved from observation. In the past month, for instance, we've had almost 20 bank-robberies, all of which were committed by "Hispanics"...Oddly, noone decided to argue with them or tell them that gunpoint negotiations were invalid!
Are you talking about in Missouri or nationwide?
 
 

Perhaps because they wouldn't have survived long enough to make the headlines?

Consent is the real issue here...We don't mind helping, but ASK FIRST, and in LIMITED QUANTITIES.
Did we ask Mexico? Did we ask Hawaii?Did we ask Spain? 
War has been a part of life long before America existed. Mexico blew up a battleship and a fort ("Remember the Maine"/"Remember the Alamo"), but American soldiers repelled the attackers and took land from them as a punishment (Economic punishments are USUALLY more effective than simple
This is not true.  The Alamo was in Texas which was a state in Mexico.  The Mexican government put down a rebellion in one of their own states.  This happened in 1836.  Texas does not become a state until 1845.  The U.S. sent an ambassador to Mexico with an offer to buy upper California.  Mexico refused to sell any part of Mexico.  After the negotiations broke down the U.S. invaded Mexico and took what became California,Arizona,New Mexico, Texas, Colorado, Nevada and part of Oklahoma.
The battleship Main was sunk in Cuba the cause was an explosion from inside the ship not outside the ship.  The U.S. started a war with Spain over this incident claiming that Spain had sunk the ship.
 
extermination...Sometimes, the offenders don't learn, or time erases the lessons...Please note, we had to have TWO World Wars!)
No the bankers had to have two world wars.  You might want to read a small book written by a Marine Corps general and two time medal of honor winner.  The book is called "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler  USMC,MOH
 

Spain didn't "feel" like lending economic/military support since they'd already sucked most the gold away.
Mexico itself was originally "owned" by the Aztecs, who were a human-sacrifice cult. Rather than sacrifice their OWN, they conquered surrounding areas, and sacrificed THEIR people instead! And Spanish of that region are/were literally gold-diggers...do we really want THAT mix in America?
If the Mexican invaders just wanted land, they could settle the uninhabited areas of Arizonan desert, but that would require building their own infrastructure, rather than just leeching off ours to the point of collapse, wouldn't it?
As to Hawaii, American troops were called in to protect Europeans from armed rebellion in that area. It was later annexed to stop tariffs. Apparently, they hadn't developed the "Free Trade Agreement" stupidity back then, or else it would have resulted in a treaty called "HAFTA"...
This is utter nonsense....I can only suggest you get a history book. 
 
..Much like you wouldn't mind giving money to the homeless,
I do not give money to the homeless.
How do you avoid paying taxes? Welfare is a sort of "involuntary wealth redistribution"...see failure of communism.
No ...see the welfare state where the corporations rip off the middle class with the help of the government.  Kinda like a reverse Robin Hood ....steel from the middle class and give it to the rich and blame it on the poor.
 
Those who work hard for what they have don't like seeing invaders come in and get it for FREE! That, and as those shoplifting signs say, "Stealing just raises the price for LEGITIMATE consumers". Check the prices of your local hospital, if the illegals haven't overloaded it into bankruptcy.

 but you wouldn't open your home to unlimited numbers of them, right?
Any one who wants to come live here with me is more than welcome....The closest paved road is two miles away.  The closest power line is six miles away.  The closest water source is fifteen miles away.  The closest real town is thirty miles away.  As for stealing my stuff ...just point out the pile of rusty iron crap you are enamored of and I will help you load it.
Again, why are Mexicans invading ESTABLISHED urban areas, rather than spawning their own in vast, trackless desert(ed) areas?
Could it be they don't want the land so much as the BENEFITS of civilization, without the responsibilities/costs?
Indeed, exporting their criminals and to America saves them quite a bundle on prisons and welfare!
Just not so.
 
 And if you do, you could fully expect small, valuable items--especially electronics and jewelry--to turn up "missing"
The closest thing I have to jewelry I have is a set of dog tags that I have modified into a roach clip.
I'm confused...You don't have anything worth stealing, so you assume nobody does?
I am not sure how you extrapolate that from my statement.
 
 Or is it just that those who don't have, can afford to be generous...As with those who have (possibly armed) guards to protect themselves from the consequences of the invasion?
 
. In America at large, we have "assisted housing", "free" medicine and schooling, etc
I have noticed that we have a lot of welfare for the rich in my country but the poor get pretty much the left overs.
Mandatory schools are overburdened already...So how does it benefit anyone to split them into Spanish and English...Didn't Brown vs. Board of Education crush that "separate but equal" idea?
I have not suggested any such thing.

...But the taxpayers still pay for it, and therefore, illegals ARE a net loss, since they breed more, and therefore take more, than they put in.
As I have pointed out before that is not true.
Again, you only pointed out that they MAY be putting SALES tax toward Social Security they may or may not be able to get their thieving hands on, but they still produce more children than they can take care of, because Uncle Sam will take care of the excess for them. In Third World countries, more children are a benefit, more hands in the field, etc. In First World countries, more children are merely an expense, you have to pay for their medical upkeep, schooling past high-school (if applicable), dental, eye-care, and other medical incidentals...But Americans shouldn't pay those expenses for Mexico's rejects, should they? Or put another way, a lack of organization on Mexico's part should NOT constitute an emergency to America!
I am saying that the undocumented laborers do pay taxes and get little for what is taken out of their wages both before and after they get them.
 
Would it be OK with you if we got a clean sheet to work on cuz this one is getting pretty longish and I have already had a visit from the mods about brevity

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

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ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The founding fathers did not intend for the constitution to protect foreign nationals. That is an invented liberal spin of constitutional law that has for some reason become common law.

They why use the exact phrase "ANY PERSON" in the 14th Amendment Equal Protection clause?

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If the constitution protects non-citizens the same way it protects citizens...then would someone explain to me the difference between a citizen and a non-citizen? It obviously isn't voting because the damn Democrats don't want pollworkers to verify photo IDs.

Will you *EVER* understand that the Constitution ONLY DELEGATES LIMITED AUTHORITY TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT?

And those limitations are ABSOLUTE, and *should be clearly understood to be absolute* via the 9th and 10th Amendments?

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The founding fathers did not intend for the constitution to protect foreign nationals. That is an invented liberal spin of constitutional law that has for some reason become common law.

...purely to satisfy my curiosity, can you point me at the part of the constitution that explicitly states this? Or, if it's implied rather than stated the part of the constitution that implies this?

Philosophy, that type of argument is really a moot point.
If you enter this country "other than through a legal port of entry" you have committed a Federal Felony and are subject to, "arrest on sight."

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Yes, the laws in the U.S. and Great Britain (are) quite different!
Although our law (is) based on English "common law."
The point is that you can't sneak into the U.S. (or any other country) and "expect" to be under the protection of U.S. laws as an illegal "foreign national."

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Yes, the laws in the U.S. and Great Britain (are) quite different!
Although our law (is) based on English "common law."
The point is that you can't sneak into the U.S. (or any other country) and "expect" to be under the protection of U.S. laws as an illegal "foreign national."

......fair enough Popeye, but what i'm asking about isn't illegal visitors, but legal ones. i suppose it boils down to one simple question.....in the US can a legal visitor expect to be treated as equally under US law as a citizen, as is the case in most of the rest of the civilised world? Furthermore, if such a situation exists, is it constitutionally based, as Cyberdude suggests, or is it a matter of policy?

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What do (you) think the Founding Fathers meant by "The People"

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If that's "confusing" to you couldn't we just insert "American" between "The" and "People?"

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Of course The Founding Fathers couldn't have forseen these things two hundred years ago, could they?

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ORIGINAL: Tinman1960

Its time for another tea party, time for change - even if that means changing the constitution a bit. I don't care what race the illegals are - they are illegal and I do not want my taxes supporting them. Protect their civil and human rights while here but deport them as fast as humanly possible - period. Thats my opinion and yes I know oppioions are like assholes - everybody has one and they all stink when unwashed.