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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 2:13:08 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		MasterMike: I very much appreciate your elaboration of your contractual process, thank you! *Also for elaborating on how "scenes" can be negotiated (just like expectations in a more enduring relationship) but in a slightly more abbreviated manner.

Great point about a submissive getting to use a Safeword, too, IMO. That is a very good point for the OP to be able to think about.

I've heard some people say they don't believe in Safewords. I think to each their own. Personally, even if I never used it, I know I always felt safer just knowing I had one if I needed to use it. I am not experienced enough, and also didn't really feel I knew my ex-Dominant, or his experience-level well enough, despite the fact I don't particularly consider myself a "heavy player", to feel totally safe with the absence of a Safeword.  

*A Safeword (if you don't know this) is a word - that can be used by the submissive or slave - that is chosen by the submissive (or slave) and-or the Master(Mistress) or-and also some physical signal, like a hand signal for instance, like waving or something -if the submissive is, for instance, gagged and can't talk) that they can use if they find the "scene" is becoming  too physically (or emotionally) intense for them to tolerate. 

If a someone uses their Safeword in a "scene"- it should always mean that the Master,Mistress or Dominant STOPS the scene Immediately. If they don't stop it, then in my mind, that is certainly grounds for a submissive or slave to question the Master-Mistresses stability, and-or good intentions, and a very good reason to end the relationship.

Among people who choose to use Safewords her at CM-
I've read about many submissive sand slaves who state that their Master or Mistress pays such keen attention to their reactions during a "scene" that they've never had to use their Safeword.

I've know others who have said they have used their Safeword (successfully) for various reasons.

And I've read about people ending relationships because their Master or Mistress ignored their use of their Safeword.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/30/2007 3:02:10 AM >

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 2:31:41 AM   
callofzion


Posts: 33
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for all the interesting feedback, it's been pretty enlightening. It seems that in reality things are more complex than the black and white approach, which I guess would make sense really, wouldn't it...

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 2:32:11 AM   
brightspot


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Status: offline 		It's as Shallow or as Deep as the people involved in it
are and/or make it.
 
Missy.

< Message edited by brightspot -- 7/30/2007 2:34:08 AM >

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 2:43:28 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		callofzion: Well, glad the thread is helpful to you. There are a lot of knowledgeable folks here at CM, I think- and your question was a great one. Very thought-provoking.

- Susan

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 3:12:44 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Yes, my Master loves me.  I love and adore him.  But the dynamic of our relationship is based upon the fact that I am his slave, and he is my Master and owner.  Without that authority and power dynamic in place, we would not have what we both want so very much........

quote:

This doesn't mean one small goof and out the door I go.  It means I give all of myself, and I strive to reach perfection in my slavery to him.  I'll never reach perfection, but I won't stop trying to reach it, either.  In my effort, I'm going to make mistakes.  I'm going to have to shed baggage and tear down walls.  Such things will get in the way of my overall goal, and will cause us both problems that will have to be contended with.  As long as he sees my effort, he is more than happy to keep me, in fact he prefers to keep me.....

quote:

Shallow?  Hell no.  This is the deepest relationship I've ever had, and the most important to me, too.  It deserves my respect.  It is sacred to me.  So I have no reason to step away from it, hence I have no reason to refuse him or what he decides for me

As always, ownedgirlie, you said it girl!  I snipped a bit here because there are certain statements that don't exactly fit my thoughts but not much.  I know exactly what the OP is talking about because I've had those same thoughts (and debates on here) myself.  I think the thing I've learned through my own personal experience and from reading here is exactly what you stated: that "messing up" or having a "small goof" here and there does NOT mean someone is necessarily "out the door." 

So many times, that's the impression one does get from reading here.  Maybe it does happen in some relationships but not in mine and not in the more stable, mature relationships of others I know.  Slaves are human, not superhuman.  Even the most obedient slave still has faults and flaws.  Yes, we all hopefully do our best to overcome those but in the end none of us are thoroughly perfect.  I don't live in fear that mistakes are going to get me walking papers.  As a matter of fact, I've been accused of being full of BS for saying the exact opposite - that I'm owned and that's never going to change no matter what.  That's what Master says anyway.  I have no intention of testing that statement, of course, because I don't want our relationship to ever end and I am never willfully disobedient.

But, as you said, goofs do happen.  I consider them learning experiences and opportunities for growth and correction.  I've made several and have improved after each and every one has been worked through.  As the OP said, I too think alot of such talk is "domly bluster."  For many Masters - my own included - who truly love and/or value their slaves, one (or even two or three) "goofs" don't get a slave sent packin'.  Thank Heaven for that...............luci



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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 3:31:42 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I think there are probably quite a few people who are attracted to D/s simply because they find it a more comfortable way to relate to a partner, for whatever reason (witness the numerous threads on the CM boards with titles like: "Why am I interested in BDSM?", etc.). I think the reasons people are involved in BDSM are probably as varied as the kinds of people involved in it.

I think there are at least as many of these folks (who simply find it a more comfortable way to relate to a partner) involved in BDSM, as there are folks who (my opinion) appear "clueless" in apparently believing it will be some kind of automatic solution for some personality disorder, for instance, exhibited on their part in relationships, (which could be a real reason their past relationships may have failed).

In some cases, maybe D/s does turn out to be the perfect "relationship solution" for a person whose relationships may have "failed" (or at least been less-then-satisfying to them) in the "Vanilla" world.

Maybe they aren't "dysfuntional" people - but were simply seeking something in "Vanilla" relationships that wasn't on offer there, that they finally found in D/s and BDSM.

Things like: More contractual promises (and hopefully the fulfillment) of stability, consistency and structure, and mostly (for me) deep intimacy. *Because in order to participate in a D/s relationship, and to paticipate in many kinds of BDSM actvity, one has to "open oneself up" to one's partner (I know at least I do) on a very deep level, and be willing to expose (and accept, as well as appreciate in another person) parts of someone that (I find) could well be overlooked in a more "conventional" relationship.

I think D/s allows for (maybe even demands) a deeper level of trust between partners, and that in turn, sparks a deeper level of intimacy between partners than can sometimes be found in a "Vanilla" relationship - even during some "mere" BDSM "scenes", let alone a full blown D/s relationship. Or maybe the way the intimacy is expressed is just different - because I've had satisfying "Vanilla" relationships, too (I've also had some disappointing ones).    

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/30/2007 4:30:01 AM >

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 5:36:37 AM   
StellaByStarlite


Posts: 790
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline 		I really think that any shallowness in the BDSM world is a direct reflection on how shallow relationship expectations can be, in general. I've seen vanilla couples split up for reasons that I would consider more superficial then a change in a sub's ways ( not wanting the dynamic anymore). For example.. leaving a 5 year relationship because " the passion is gone". There are several D/s relationships on the forum that would no doubt work through it somehow and STAY committed.
Fact is, imo, there are too many people, bdsm or otherwise, that have no idea what commitment means.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 5:37:41 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: callofzion

Hmm, it looks like someone read the topic and not the post.. how very naughty...


i read the post, but the topic was funnier...LOL


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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 5:48:33 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I just thought of something that I've read as a topic in some other threads, that might be very pertinent to this thread:

**What if a submissive (or a slave) ever developed a dependency on a Master or Mistress that was truly un-healthy, and was currently experiencing true abuse from that Master or Mistress - then how could they get up the courage, and find whatever "spark" was left in their soul or personality (that little voice inside them), that might indeed be "telling them" to leave the relationship - and end the relationship?

My answer to that question for myself is:  I really think that a responsible Master or Mistress would actually never allow this level of dependency on them from their submissive or slave to occur in a D/s relationship to begin with - and would try to remain alert to any possibility that it could occur or was happening.

If it did happen (or if they actively encouraged that level of dependency in a submissive or a slave, and wanted it to develop - and I am not placing a value-judgment on them wanting it, or not, really, I guess - different strokes for differnet folks, and all of that), but anyway- I'd think a responsible Master or Mistress would try very hard not to abuse that level of dependency.

Plus, I think there is almost always some "spark" in people (on some level) that lets them know when they are truly being "abused", even in a heavily co-dependent relationship, for example (the question is whether the submissive or slave allows themself, no matter how emotionally debilitated they may feel, to pay attention to it, or not).

*My opinion is that if a submissive or slave enters a D/s or M/s relationship, they do place a lot of responsibility on their Master or Mistress for their welfare, BUT - regardless of how responsible their Master or Mistress might be (or promise to be) my opinion is that  submissive or slave always have some level of responsibility they must still be willing to take for themselves (and in my opinion, the possibility of these kinds of situations is part of the reason why).

Of course, the possibility of true (as in non-consensual) abuse exists in "Vanilla" relationships as well. 

That would be my answer to that question (I've seen this question before on CM threads. And I think it's a pertinent question). *Although I am not in any way trying to insinuate that non-consensual abuse is a "norm" in D/s relationships by asking this question (I thought it was an "off-shoot" that was pertinent to the OP's topic).  

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/30/2007 6:43:40 AM >

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And sings the tune without the words,
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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 7:18:39 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Relationships are what you make of them.  Presumably whoever is involved knows going into it what will and will not lead to a likely ending of the relationship.  There are things my partner could do which would cause the relationship to end.  I highly doubt those will ever occur- I'm really NOT a risk taker despite a lot of what I do.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 7:25:47 AM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		BDSM is no different than other aspects of life when it comes to people and relationships, we all have opinions and we all are different.  What makes us all similar is that we have interest in kink (or leather or BDSM).

I don't think because some of us have our opinions on punishment that may not agree with other opinions are any more shallow than those who don't agree.  It just makes us different.  There are some of us who have (or have had partners) who agree with that way of thinking and there are some who just aren't interested in people like us and that's fine too.

Welcome!


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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 7:28:05 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Here is my personal take on the topic.

Online, people tend to over simplify and, on the flip side, over complicate, BDSM and the relationships between the people that participate.

Now, if you have just the BDSM activities......perhaps only this and no M/s relationship, then yes, it can be very shallow, not necessarily a bad thing at all if that is what a person wants. "Meet you at the Dungeon where I will (insert favourite activity here) and we can both go on our merry way afterwards"  Pretty simple and no need to get all dramatic, mushy, or add alot of deep BS that really doesn't apply.

OR, you can be in a more 24/7 M/s relationship in which BDSM is only a facet thereof. Not necessarily all that different than many relationships except for a defined power structure and a few more kinky activities tossed in for spice. The fact remains that we all go to work, eat, shit, grocery shop, like most people do. Nothing especially unique about the greater percentile of our lives. How shallow or deep it is, is directly determined by the people involved in the relationship not by their kink. Shallow people lead shallow lives, the kink does not determine it.

Now, for some people in a 24/7 M/s relationship, the power structure and the BDSM kink/play will deepen their relationship. They may use it as a tool to create a depth of bond that they feel would be lacking without it. But again, it is a direct reflection of the people involved not the kink/play they do.

BDSM in and of itself is not some great, spiritual, relationship, holy grail. It is an activity or group of activities. What it is/does for/to, the people involved, is determined by those individuals and the meaning they bestow upon it.


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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 7:32:26 AM   
SusanofO


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Status: offline 		I really agree with that, LaTigresse. What a great (and clear) synopsis and answer! - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/30/2007 7:36:27 AM >

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 7:59:03 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Or is this just domly bluster?


Hello, and welcome,

In my experience, the only doms who use this tactic are the super control freaks. The ones where their need for control is so extreme it is an obsession. As often as not, the threat is enough to pull the submissive back in line. But if that submissive where to attempt any kind of self control, it would end the relationship.

I'm talking real life relationships, of course. I know very few who act this extreme in RL relationships. I actually lost a very good friend over this very issue. He is a Dom, though he and his wife had mostly a "vanilla" relationship. He was so obsessive compulsive about having her under his thumb, although I was not aware of the true dynamics of their relationship at the time.

He asked me to teach his wife some yoga as a way to calm her down as she was acting like a bitch all the time (which I now realize was her way of trying to fight his obsessive control over her). We were doing that and she was really getting into it. But suddenly she started acting really strange around her husband. She would accuse him of ruining her life, etc. He quickly figured out that I was treating her differently, as a friend and as an equal, and she was comparing my treatment of herself to how her husband treated her. He pulled the plug on the yoga and the friendship so fast it made my head spin. The blame, of course, was laid at my feet. The really sad thing was that she went along with his decision and remains, as far as I know, still under his thumb to this day.

The BS that is spoken online is just that; mostly from men who wouldn't know a fetish relationship if it hit them in the you-know-where.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 8:14:20 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		There've been some great answers on here to your post.  I agree that a relationship is what the people involved make of it.  Some of us like a defined structure to start with.  My partners...I've had 3 long-term in the last 9 years...always knew what they could do that would end the relationship and I have known what I could do that would end the relationship.

You ask about something specific...refusal of a punishment leading to an out the door end of the relationship...and you stated that you found it shallow.  I would argue that, in some instances, it would be and in others, it would not.  Take a relationship such as the one described as ownedgirlie.  She accepted various conditions when she entered into a relationship with her Master, one of them being that she could refuse to do something...whether that be a task or accept a punishment or whatever...and the dynamic would be changed and damaged.  She knew that refusal to obey Master's orders could, in all likelihood, be the end.  Is that shallow?  Or is it an understood-from-the-beginning boundary that does not let her slip into the complacency of "He reallllllllly woundn't do that"?

We are not privy to what has gone on in ownedgirlie's relationship...or in that of others...but to me, it depends on what is known and understood in the beginning, even what constitutes the end of the dynamic.  We hear a lot...especially from submissives...about trust.  How trustworthy is it to agree to conditions and then, because you've had a bad day or your temper flares or you "just don't feel like it" to refuse to submit?  And deeper, how trustworthy is a dominant who lives up to all of his word about being firm but fair, understanding but expecting of a certain set mode of behavior, who sets that all aside each and every time his back is up against the wall?  Sometimes you can and sometimes you cannot.  That is up to the ones involved and what circumstances allow for that stepping away period.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 8:16:10 AM   
Bearlee


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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 8:29:01 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
As always, ownedgirlie, you said it girl!  I snipped a bit here because there are certain statements that don't exactly fit my thoughts but not much.  I know exactly what the OP is talking about because I've had those same thoughts (and debates on here) myself.  I think the thing I've learned through my own personal experience and from reading here is exactly what you stated: that "messing up" or having a "small goof" here and there does NOT mean someone is necessarily "out the door." 


Hi slaveluci,  thank you for the kind words :)  I should probably clarify in my case, some of my goofs haven't been small at all!!  It's the rejection of his authority that would end the dynamic for me, but even massive screw ups have been resolved and put behind us.  I'm not proud of them.  But I am more grateful than you can imagine that he chose to find the reasons behind them and how to prevent them, rather than to escort me out of the relationship.  Two things can end it for me - if I choose not to submit to him anymore, and if I cheat on him.   I can't see the first happening, and the second never will.

quote:


So many times, that's the impression one does get from reading here.  Maybe it does happen in some relationships but not in mine and not in the more stable, mature relationships of others I know.  Slaves are human, not superhuman.  Even the most obedient slave still has faults and flaws.  Yes, we all hopefully do our best to overcome those but in the end none of us are thoroughly perfect.  I don't live in fear that mistakes are going to get me walking papers.  As a matter of fact, I've been accused of being full of BS for saying the exact opposite - that I'm owned and that's never going to change no matter what.  That's what Master says anyway.  I have no intention of testing that statement, of course, because I don't want our relationship to ever end and I am never willfully disobedient.


I think sometimes we cut to the chase in our posts for the sake of brevity and don't explain those three gazillion pages behind the scenes that got us to where we are.  I've shed a lot of tears along the way behind the scenes, as I've had to tear down nearly impossible walls within myself, and had to change certain perspectives and expectations.  I have a place with him as long as I'm willing to do the work, and those are the things I mean by "work."

quote:


But, as you said, goofs do happen.  I consider them learning experiences and opportunities for growth and correction.  I've made several and have improved after each and every one has been worked through.  As the OP said, I too think alot of such talk is "domly bluster."  For many Masters - my own included - who truly love and/or value their slaves, one (or even two or three) "goofs" don't get a slave sent packin'.  Thank Heaven for that...............luci


I understand what you mean.  Several times when I thought he should send me a-packin', he didn't.  But I am aware of what will send me off and I don't foresee it happening.  Some of my greatest growth spurts within myself and this relationship have been after a screw up.   My screw ups are mostly the result of difficulty changing a mindset. 

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 9:11:55 AM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		It's very simple.  It's as shallow as the people involved.  There isn't one big blanket which covers everyone.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 9:19:19 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		BDSM isn't a magical place where people become "better" some of us have great relationships and others don't, just like vanilla people.  There are shallow people, angry people, bitter people and happy people here.

Many of us here, like myself have extensive experience in the real "scene" despite a few comments to the contrary.  Many of us, like me, have had long term vanilla and bdsm relationships also.

That said, I have railed against the "she won't obey so dump her" trains that tend to be pulled here but I am also one who doesn't hesitate to say "honey, you ain't ready to do bdsm yet".  Building a relationship takes a lot of hard work, creating a working D/s dynamic probably takes more than any other.

That said, I have gotten out of bed with a woman who disobeyed me and left her there crying and never spoke to her again.  There are people I have interacted with who I realized were NEVER going to be on the same page as me and never wanted to interact with them on any other basis but a social one. 

Bottom line, to make a long ramble even longer, it doesn't take much to leave, it takes a lot more to stay and make things better.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 10:37:04 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I think that is most of my problem with finding a dominant online to go into the offline world.  Most I find have some unrealistic idea about how to make a relationship work.  And it is a relationship for many of us.  If someone cares about me and I hope that he would, it would be unlikely he would casually dismiss me for not fitting into some fantasy in his head.  I do see a lot of blustering here and other bdsm sites.  Those would not be the sort of men to attract me. 
The good thing about online is that you can really see who is not going to work in your world.
I would choose to be nilla if those type were the only option.
Nilla is looking better every day.
Kyst

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