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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 11:57:35 AM

SimplyMichael

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Miss,

Considering you are near SF and Sacramento but don't participate in our communities that I am aware of, saying you can't meet someone is like living next to a bar but complaining you can't find a drink.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 12:40:44 PM

kyraofMists

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Congratulations on your first thread. This post sparked an interesting conversation between my Lord and I and what I have written is a combination of our thoughts on the topic. I have only read the OP, so I may just be repeating someone else.

I have been reading the boards for two years now and I have not noticed a prevalence of dominants saying that with one slip up that the submissive will be tossed out. Granted I don't read every post, but I think you may also be making a few inaccurate assumptions.

My relationship is an M/s relationship and to willfully refuse to obey a direct order will end that M/s relationship. We also love each other very deeply and cannot imagine our lives without the other. It is painful to even consider not being in each other’s lives.

My obedience to his authority is one of the fundamental principles of our relationship. Without that principle the relationship ceases to be what it is, i.e. a relationship where total authority has been transferred to him.

To put it in terms that may be more easily understood let’s compare it to a monogamous relationship where a fundamental principle is that the two will be faithful to each other. When a couple enters a monogamous relationship there is an expectation that they will not have intimate/sexual relationships with others. When one person in that monogamous relationship violates that principle and goes outside that relationship the relationship ceases to be monogamous. Trust is violated; the person’s commitment and integrity are called into question and the relationship goes into crisis. Sometimes the relationship can survive that crisis and many times it cannot.

A fundamental principle of our M/s structure is that Alandra and I have made commitments to obey and he has made a commitment to exercise his authority in whatever way he wants as long as he does not intentionally harm us. If that fundamental principle is violated by either her or me willfully choosing to disobey or by him knowingly causing us harm, then the relationship will go into crisis. Trust will have been violated and our integrity and commitment will be in question.

Like those who know that they cannot maintain a relationship with someone who violates the principles of monogamy, we know that we cannot maintain a relationship when one person violates the fundamentals of the M/s relationship.

To willfully choose to disobey is not the same as making a mistake or slipping up. To intentionally cause harm is not the same as harm accidentally occurring. Mistakes can be analogous to an overly flirtatious partner in a monogamous relationship. Some relationships can handle more of that type of behavior than other relationships.

There does come a point where a particular mistake ceases to be a mistake and starts becoming intentional disobedience. Where that point is will be different from relationship to relationship. I know that for my Lord, he will tolerate mistakes, forgetfulness and slip ups as long as I am making effort to improve and prevent these things from happening. However, there would come a point when enough is enough and I better start getting it right.

To apply your questions to monogamy… Would you say that couples who agree to be monogamous are operating from a position of weakness if they expect the other person to be faithful? Would you say that the person who cannot stay with an unfaithful partner does not care for them deeply? What is so flakey about expecting your partner to have integrity and uphold the commitment that they made? Would you consider it bluster if you partner says, you cheat on me and the relationship is over?

For us there is no difference between the commitments that we have made to be in an M/s relationship than other people who commit to be in a monogamous relationship. Others may make different choices in their relationship, but this is what M/s is to us. The master exercises his authority in whatever manner he chooses as long as he does not intentionally cause harm and the slave obeys.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 2:43:58 PM

PairOfDimes

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1) Not all relationships involve deep emotional devotion, and not everyone wants deep emotional devotion in every one of their relationships. If that means it's shallow, then shallow relationships can be very satisfying.

2) Think of it as breaking agreements. We're used to the idea that people break up with one another for cheating (i.e. violating an agreement to be monogamous) yes? Or, that people break up with partners who grossly mismanage shared money or responsibilities? Is it then easier to understand how, in a relationship in which one partner clearly agreed to obey the other in certain circumstances, and the other agreed to be responsible for decisions in certain circumstances, unwarranted breaking of that agreement of obedience and direction might be seen as grounds for termination (or, really, effective termination already) by either party?

(Of course, this allows for personal variation--some people, in general, find it easier to sever attachments than others do. For me, personally, *if* I was already pretty well invested in you, you'd have to show a pattern of irresponsibility, or you'd have to do something spectacularly irresponsible. I'd probably mention, somewhere in this, that I'm still interested in having a d/s relationship with you, and if you're not interested in, um, obeying, you should probably rethink whether you want a d/s relationship with me. But if I began to realize that you habitually weren't doing the relationship I wanted and that we agreed on, and that my attempts to remind you of the obligations you voluntarily accepted didn't work, then perhaps we've run our course with one another and had ought to look elsewhere to get what we now want.)

Finally, some of the relationship-termination stuff you hear probably stems from reading replies to rather wanky posts. When one reads "Mistress, what sort of exciting, clever punishment could you devise for a poor, groveling slave who disobeyed in X way?" it induces, in me and in a few other posters I've read, a desire to throw cold water on the author by reminding him that punishment roleplay is one thing and often a fun thing, but if you're going to defy easy requests that you've already said you were going to obey, you might want to rethink whether you should be in a d/s relationship.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 10:04:05 PM

Missokyst

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I have never had a contract. I never will. I don't need one. For me, I am committed or I am not. If I am with someone they are going into it the same way I am, with an understanding that if things come up, we work them out. I have seen many people do the contract thing. Personally, I would rather do the 7 yr relationship and then the end, then do this for a 2 yr contract, then renegotiate.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

MasterMike: Great point about contracts.

I myself haven't had one yet (in writing anyway, although my ex-Dom and I had a pretty solid verbal agreement, and for the most part, (except for once) stuck with it) , but I know many many many people do - and to the OP: Yes, the express purpose of a contract is to lay out in writing (or at least explicitly) exactly what two people (or more I guess if it is a Poly family) expect from eachother in their relationhsip.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 10:11:11 PM

Missokyst

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Michael I not only run a group up here in Chico, I also have been to Sindulgences on a few occasions.
It is not participation which is the issue. It is finding someone who doesn't mind my being a person who doesnt fear the spotlight.. and yet is also not a bi, exhibitionistic, casual sex partner.
It is that last one that stops me every time. I can't get into casual sex. I kind of like to like my sex partners on multiple levels.
Kyst

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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 10:15:02 PM

SimplyMichael

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Shows what I know. Cat is a dear friend of mine although we rarely agree on much. If you ever run into me, make sure you say hello. I take it then that it is you who are organizing the authors presentation up there this week? I was telling him to take 299 over from the coast but wasn't really sure the best way, you might want to tell him if there is a better way.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 10:20:50 PM

Missokyst

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yep, that's me. I arranged for a room so we can have a more private discussion. If it works out, we will be doing the room thing for other events like movie nights or social parties without kink. Sometimes it SUCKS to be in a small town! Parties up here, just don't fly. But I can facillitate as much as I can.
I haven't see your at any of the Cat parties I have attended this year. But if I might say, you look darned cute gazing at your sub. <g> it is looking like a chick flick.
Andei/Kyst

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/30/2007 10:39:54 PM

came4U

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The only reason, after thinkin' about this, that a Dom would do such 'toss-out' tactic is because he knows of her hard limit/or close to it, and he uses that as a reason or excuse to rid of a gal for spite and without guilt or remorse. I could see that happenening in real life., if the sub did all he asked so far and he became bored, disillusioned or intertested in another sub. Yep, I could see this kind of dismissal being used often, and a gal as cannon fodder without realization that she was duped.

I would find it hard to be a sucker like that. Nor would I appreciate another gal being refused on such premises.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 4:16:26 AM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

The only reason, after thinkin' about this, that a Dom would do such 'toss-out' tactic is because he knows of her hard limit/or close to it, and he uses that as a reason or excuse to rid of a gal for spite and without guilt or remorse. I could see that happenening in real life., if the sub did all he asked so far and he became bored, disillusioned or intertested in another sub. Yep, I could see this kind of dismissal being used often, and a gal as cannon fodder without realization that she was duped.

I would find it hard to be a sucker like that. Nor would I appreciate another gal being refused on such premises.

*bold added by me

From reading this it seems that you think the dominant is the only one who can violate trust and the commitments that they made and the only one who lacks integrity. If so, you need to take off the rose colored glasses and realize that it takes two people to make a relationship work and relationships can and do end because the submissive decides to not live up to the commitments that they make and violate the trust of the dominant.

Dominants are not the big bad and the very few that I know who do say that if a slave refuses a direct order the relationship would be over are not trying to dupe their partner and appear to have very happy, loving relationships with each other. This type of relationship can last long term (my Lord and Alandra have been together for 20 years). This type of relationship is not necessarily a fear based relationship. I have no fear that he is going to toss me out, just like he has no fear that I will disobey.

I find it amusing the amount of negative assumptions being made in this thread because people choose to make obedience the foundation of their relationship. We don't villify people beacause they choose to make monogamy the foundation of their relationship, so why make such negative remarks of people who choose a different foundation?

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 4:27:12 AM

callofzion

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VERY interesting point about making obedience the base of a relationship rather than say, monogamy. It would appear in the first instance that humans are somewhat programmed to be genetically jealous of those who would screw over our chanced of procreating, hence the monogamy thing. Even in non monogamous circumstances, fidelity is still often an expectation. Making obedience the benchmark of a relationship is an interesting point, but I doubt many would have the same reaction to a sub saying "no, I'm not bending over for that", versus finding them doing your best friend....

I guess what I am saying is that monogamy, or at least fidelity tends to be a 'natural' expectation, wheras obedience, not so much in relationships where emotions are involved.

Yeah I know, generalised statements all over the show, but you get the general drift...

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 5:07:01 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

Out of curiosity, can and do Dom/mes REALLY cut submissives out entirely if they disobey or do some such other thing? I'm not talking about if the sub was abusive or overtly idiotic, I'm talking about a submissive who the Dom is fond of, maybe loves, and has an otherwise good relationship with, would they really throw the whole relationship out the window just like that?

I remember one time, years back, when my husband ( who also happened to be my master ) told me to do something and I flat out refused. It took him less than 5 minutes to have my clothes at the front door. I let my own pride rule for 5 days before I went back and begged him for forgiveness; and to let me come home. I never refused again.

So yes, there are some who, despite the love they feel for their slave/submissive; who will toss them out over a refusal to do something; or a show of total disobedience. For some, they accept this; for others, it would never work. It all depends on those involved.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 5:39:37 AM

Rose4Mistress

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While I am not exactly in a D/s relationship (my boyfriend and I are learning together, so we don't really label things as of yet), I can say that their are definitely times where I do refuse to be punished. If I think he is overreacting about something due to a bad day, I will suggest we wait 24 hours, and then the next day when he is calmer, if he still thinks I need to be punished for something, I will submit to that. Usually, however, the next day he realizes he was just trying to vent his anger at me. Also, if I am not feeling well, or if I am in a particularly bad mood, I again communicate how I am feeling, and tell him that I will not be punished.
However, I rarely exercise this privilege, because overuse would cause it to be highly ineffective. We've been together two years, and I can say I've refused punishment three times, once because I still had a cast on my foot, once because I hurt all over from a scene the day before, and once because I was in a terrible mood.
Would he ever drop me because of that? No. We communicate with each other very well, and he knows that when I say no, its for a good reason. If, however, I refused all the time, he probably would, because living with someone who is that negative and disobedient is not interesting to him.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 6:30:10 AM

came4U

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Kyra,

the OP's topic is in referance to a dominant., It is nothing personal on my part. She asks question, we gave opinions.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 6:56:40 AM

WhiplashSmile

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I'm not going to try to answer this question for everybody, rather just express my own point of view on this subject.

There are certain things I will and will not deal with (tolerate) in any relationship. I don't simply can a relationship when somebody merely slips up.  I will pack it all in when there is no other resort.   An major ongoing repeated offense and all the talking, communication, punishement in the world has made no-difference in their behavior.

Generally, if it's a newer relationship and there are major issues right away early on, It's always easier to pull the plug and walk away. Depends upon the level of emotional investment I've made in somebody.   All in all, and I don't mean to sound cruel there are times when a person has to think of themselves first. Perhaps, that sounds a bit shallow.

For Example, and I'm using my imagination here. If I discovered she was smoking crack or using other hard core drugs, this would be a big fucking problem. Now, the whole idea of punishment is getting the other person to face the reality for what the fuck they are doing wrong.   In this case, I would be wanting specific things to happen. Such has her getting counseling and perhaps rehab even.   The idea is to correct or make modification to the unacceptable behavior. Now, if she were to refuse in this case. I would be literally tossing her shit out the front door...

Now, let's say she did not bring me my morning cup of coffee, and I was upset and insisted upon a little quality corner time and she refused.   Now, this is somewhat different.   Let's assume she normally brings me a morning cup of coffee, and she was sick on this day in question. I would rather shallow and inconsiderate of me to be tossing her shit out the door over this.

Now, for the most part, most of the submissive woman I have been with, actually will try to hold the world together even if they are sick. I've literally had to step in and demand they get some good proper bed rest.

I'd swear at times, some people have this impression that submissives are difficult to train, have some notion that submissives need to be forced constantly. I think there's a problem in any D/s relationship where the Dom constantly feels like they are having to pull teeth to get a sub to do something.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 7:43:39 AM

Missokyst

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Yeah.. that is exactly what happened to at least 2 buddies I knew personally over the years. Everything seemed fine, they were being slaves and happy to be with their "loving master". Then contracts were up, negotiations didn't happen, and next thing you know the girl is off on her own and he has a new girl collared. No thanks.
For me this has to be more than a contract.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

The only reason, after thinkin' about this, that a Dom would do such 'toss-out' tactic is because he knows of her hard limit/or close to it, and he uses that as a reason or excuse to rid of a gal for spite and without guilt or remorse. I could see that happenening in real life., if the sub did all he asked so far and he became bored, disillusioned or intertested in another sub. Yep, I could see this kind of dismissal being used often, and a gal as cannon fodder without realization that she was duped.

I would find it hard to be a sucker like that. Nor would I appreciate another gal being refused on such premises.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 7:47:03 AM

Missokyst

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Umm... maybe because we all have viewpoints and this is a discussion forum?
Just as some people need the structure of a contract, others will keep away. No one is saying the other is wrong. Just wrong for them, or in their observation. We all have a right to think, and do, what works.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
I find it amusing the amount of negative assumptions being made in this thread because people choose to make obedience the foundation of their relationship. We don't villify people beacause they choose to make monogamy the foundation of their relationship, so why make such negative remarks of people who choose a different foundation?

Knight's Kyra

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 7:47:59 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: callofzion

VERY interesting point about making obedience the base of a relationship rather than say, monogamy. It would appear in the first instance that humans are somewhat programmed to be genetically jealous of those who would screw over our chanced of procreating, hence the monogamy thing. Even in non monogamous circumstances, fidelity is still often an expectation. Making obedience the benchmark of a relationship is an interesting point, but I doubt many would have the same reaction to a sub saying "no, I'm not bending over for that", versus finding them doing your best friend....

I guess what I am saying is that monogamy, or at least fidelity tends to be a 'natural' expectation, wheras obedience, not so much in relationships where emotions are involved.

Yeah I know, generalised statements all over the show, but you get the general drift...

Ironically, up until the last few years, obedience WAS a "natural" expectation too...look at the marital vows of "love, honor, and OBEY". The "obey" part was set to the wayside with the advent of the more radical elements of liberation and all the other social upheaval of the 60's. But, in D/s, obedience is part of the dynamic and for most people entering into a D/s dynamic, that is understood from the start. As I stated in my earlier post and as others have expressed, there is nothing wrong with an expectation of obedience nor the expectation that if one party does not live up to their obligation, then the dynamic is changed/damaged.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 8:14:36 AM

MasterFireMaam

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I'm unlikely to end a relationship due to one infraction. I'm most likely to end a relationship if, after talking and coming at the situation from several angles, the sub/slave still outright refuses to obey an order I find perfectly reasonable. It will depend on the situation and nothing is written in stone.

Master Fire

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 8:56:29 AM

Celeste43

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There are as many shallow people here as in the real world. I know of men who feel that they are entitled to cheat if their wife gains weight, or because she's pregnant and he doesn't like having sex with pregnant women. If you're expecting that online people are any different than offline, then you need to rethink why you had this assumption.

And someone who won't discuss what the problem is and throws a sub out for any refusal is someone who also complains that there aren't any 'real subs' out there. He might be dominant but he's not capable of relationship skills.

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RE: Is BDSM just shallow? - 7/31/2007 9:07:34 AM

lovewithoutfear

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I've added boldface to part of your words below. Again thank you for your way with words. I'd like to point out something that I think I am reading between the lines of your replies to this post and the replies of several others: the important point that dealing with disobedience and disagreements in a power exchange relationship isn't about growth exclusively by the sub or slave. It's clear from what people are saying that there is give-and-take, and the willingness on the part of the Dom/Master/Mistress to do their own growing and changing. This could include modifying agreements, admitting mistakes, and changing behaviors from the topside as well. And that's the thing one doesn't see in the type of person I think the OP was referring to -- the "one slip and you're gone" control freak, whom others here have pointed out is more common online than in RL.

JoyfulYes

You wrote:
"even massive screw ups have been resolved and put behind us. I'm not proud of them. But I am more grateful than you can imagine that he chose to find the reasons behind them and how to prevent them, rather than to escort me out of the relationship. [snip]
Several times when I thought he should send me a-packin', he didn't. But I am aware of what will send me off and I don't foresee it happening. Some of my greatest growth spurts within myself and this relationship have been after a screw up. My screw ups are mostly the result of difficulty changing a mindset. "

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