CD'ers and submission (Full Version)

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MistressMaamNH -> CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 2:32:03 AM)

Let Me preface this to say, this is NOT intended as a flame, or a bashing of those who enjoy cross dressing.  More of a sharing of personal experience and point of view.

I would have to say that about 95-98% of the males who approach Me to serve, are interested in cross-dressing in one form or another.  The vast majority of those that do want that, have also stated that dressing up as a woman brings out their submissive side.  Does anyone else feel, as a Dominant Woman (Female Supremacists in particular) that it is an affront to Femininity to so strongly equate being Female, with being submissive and subservient? 

Secondly, how many other Dominas feel as I do, that those who are interested in "serving" this way, don't really have an interest in actually serving, i.e. putting the Dominant's needs first and foremost, but are more interested in playing Barbie Doll dressup?  I am of the belief, that there should be at bare minimum, an equal exchange of energy between Dominant and submissive.  For those who are into the cross-dressing fetish, it seems that all the energy of the relationship flows to the 'submissive' and not the Dominant.

Again, I'm not looking for a flame war, or a bashing of any specific person.  Just interested in polite, articulate and intelligent discourse.

MMNH



MisPandora -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 4:01:57 AM)

Generalizing, yes and yes.  With rare exception (someone who posts here on an infrequent basis) I find that the CDs who've approached me in the past are moreso fetishists in that their kink (dressing) is their sole focus (not me) and that they are not the submissive subject I seek.



LaMistressa -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 5:36:44 AM)

I am a feminist, but I do not see crossdressing or feminization as an affront to feminism. I think the emphasis is on turning a person into someone they are not, vs. a "being womanly is humiliating" mindset. Of course, I also refused membership in NOW when they came out with their "bdsm is anti-women" stance, so that brand of feminism doesn't interest me very much. Getting paid equal wages to men, having family-friendly policies in the workplace, stopping human rights abuses - these interest me more.

As to the time/energy exchange between playing with someone with a crossdressing fetish -- if I spend an hour feminizing a submissive, you can be sure that they will spend well over that time pleasing me, be it foot massage, cleaning the kitchen or what have you. I think that women get the better clothes and accessories in life, so I tend to put them on some men as well, that's all.



SweetDommes -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 5:44:20 AM)

It's not so much that she feels that crossdressing or feminization is anti-feminism, but that the mindset of "I need to crossdress to feel submissive" is anti-feminism.  I happen to agree with her ... to a point.  It's definitely perpetuating the stereotype that women are naturally more submissive than men which can hinder the equality movement.  It is also definitely anti-female supremacy ... although I'm not a fem-supremacist, so I don't particularly care about that aspect. 



thetammyjo -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 5:49:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressMaamNH



I would have to say that about 95-98% of the males who approach Me to serve, are interested in cross-dressing in one form or another. The vast majority of those that do want that, have also stated that dressing up as a woman brings out their submissive side. Does anyone else feel, as a Dominant Woman (Female Supremacists in particular) that it is an affront to Femininity to so strongly equate being Female, with being submissive and subservient?




I feel that way.

I think equating femininity with submissiveness is buying into and promoting social stereotypes. I'm not a fan of promoting these any more than I'm a fan of promoting the stereotype that men always want sex or it is unmanly to cry.

Since I have no interest in promoting these gender stereotypes I don't personally find CD to be a plus. It may or may not be a minus depending on the individual's personality, how well he fits into my family, and his reasons for cross dressing and how it makes him feel.

If he needs to cross dress or identify as feminine to feel submissive that is a huge minus to me. If he just likes fabrics and color traditionally associated with women's clothing that becomes a neutral. If he likes cross dressing because he feels empowered in some fashion (as a partner of mine did in the past) that is also neutral to me.



DawnFire -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 5:52:37 AM)

I agree.  If a male needs to be dressed like a woman to feel submissive it is greatly hampering that equality.  I am a slight female supremisist, and of course a feminist... for my submissive, being allowed to wear female clothing should be a reward, and in no way tied to their submissiveness towards me.



thetammyjo -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 5:52:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaMistressa

I am a feminist, but I do not see crossdressing or feminization as an affront to feminism. I think the emphasis is on turning a person into someone they are not, vs. a "being womanly is humiliating" mindset. Of course, I also refused membership in NOW when they came out with their "bdsm is anti-women" stance, so that brand of feminism doesn't interest me very much. Getting paid equal wages to men, having family-friendly policies in the workplace, stopping human rights abuses - these interest me more.



You may not be aware but a few years ago they got rid of those statements in their bylaws. I quit my membership after this statement was originally made and wrote a letter to them explaining why (I think many women did in fact). After they repealed that statement I rejoined and wrote them a letter expressing my appreciation of the fact that they learned a bit.



planomaid -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 7:24:57 AM)

Conversely to your argument, a male dominant could argue that any woman using a strap-on is an affront to Masculinity.  I'm not sure any woman has the capability to understand crossdressing from the male perspective.  And I don't mean this in a negative way.  Simply put, women (or at least very few of them) don't crossdress.  Period.  And crossdressing is usually tied into more than just the clothes.  Most CD'ers want to take on feminine mannerisms, to look and act feminine.  Why they do so is as varied as most other things. 

Society teaches men to be one way, women to be another.  If you are male, and someone calls you feminine or sissy, its an insult.  Equating a male with feminine traits is to question his maleness.  Its not the same for women.  Women who are labeled with male traits my be called a 'bitch', but there's also envy attached to that.  The woman has shown herself to be strong, independent, not willing to back down, a leadher, etc.  These are traits normally assigned to men.  Or, put a better way, if a woman leads her team the same way a male does, she often gets the 'bitch' label.  However, if a woman leads her team in a 'womanly' way, she gets the same results and respect for succes but not the label.  Is it a double standard?  You bet.  Just like the double standards for men. 

I'm generalizing with my statements, but the argument you are making is one that can only be addressed with a similar broad brush.  Personal experiences are what matter in a D/S relationship, so each persons expereinces will vary from the next. 

The question I would have of women, is why would you feel threatened or affronted that a male has adopted feminine mannerisms and clothing because he feels more submissive that way?  What about women who do the same thing, except that they are biologically women?  If a bio-woman can only feel submissive while dressing a certain way, does that make them any different than males?  Does a domme always have to wear a corset and leather to be considered a domme?  Or can she go tothe dungeon in her keds and shorts and play here submissive and still receive the same respect if she was dressed to the domme-nines?



mistresszariah1 -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 8:35:57 AM)

very well put planomaid



thetammyjo -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 9:32:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: planomaid
The question I would have of women, is why would you feel threatened or affronted that a male has adopted feminine mannerisms and clothing because he feels more submissive that way? What about women who do the same thing, except that they are biologically women? If a bio-woman can only feel submissive while dressing a certain way, does that make them any different than males? Does a domme always have to wear a corset and leather to be considered a domme? Or can she go tothe dungeon in her keds and shorts and play here submissive and still receive the same respect if she was dressed to the domme-nines?


Honestly, yes.

A woman who only feels submissive when she wears a certain type of clothing or talks in a certain way that is promoting a stereotype of what it means to be feminine is reenforcing those stereotypes. I, for one, dislike those stereotypes whether they are promoted by males, females, or other.



iwearpanties -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 9:57:51 AM)

Maybe  i shouldnt reply on this but as a long time submissive male and also an panty wear er i dont ever recall not giveing the Mistress i vist and played any hassles of cousre there not here to say other wise !  but i alwasy went out of my way for the Mistresses for there takeing the time too teach and dominate and contorl this male sub . i will say for my self that wearing the panties and silkys help too take away the macho-ness and make me kmnow and understand my place as a sunb male  knowing its best for the male sub too go thur this .. i realise we all have diffrent ideas on this butr as a sub male i did and will always do as told and ordered to for my Mistress and be the best sub male i can and if she felt i wasnt worht it or worth my panty wearing then i have too expcet that....



Jasmyn -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 10:27:28 AM)

I don't find mixing cross dressing with submission offensive.  Seeing no difference in male submissives needing to be cross dressed to find the space and mind to submit than I do in female submissives needing to be Daddy's Girl, Cockwhores, Master's Slut or a Hot Wives to enjoy a spanking or jolly good rodgering...



perspective helps when you're contemplating belly button lint




MistressSassy66 -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 11:24:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressMaamNH

Let Me preface this to say, this is NOT intended as a flame, or a bashing of those who enjoy cross dressing.  More of a sharing of personal experience and point of view.

I would have to say that about 95-98% of the males who approach Me to serve, are interested in cross-dressing in one form or another.  The vast majority of those that do want that, have also stated that dressing up as a woman brings out their submissive side.  Does anyone else feel, as a Dominant Woman (Female Supremacists in particular) that it is an affront to Femininity to so strongly equate being Female, with being submissive and subservient? 

Secondly, how many other Dominas feel as I do, that those who are interested in "serving" this way, don't really have an interest in actually serving, i.e. putting the Dominant's needs first and foremost, but are more interested in playing Barbie Doll dressup?  I am of the belief, that there should be at bare minimum, an equal exchange of energy between Dominant and submissive.  For those who are into the cross-dressing fetish, it seems that all the energy of the relationship flows to the 'submissive' and not the Dominant.

Again, I'm not looking for a flame war, or a bashing of any specific person.  Just interested in polite, articulate and intelligent discourse.

MMNH



I personally do not find it offensive to Women.
Its just one of many things that make different people
feel more submissive.

I do have to agree the main part for some is the "Barbie Doll" image.
For some that equals slut,"dress me up so i can be your slut" is a common phrase.
That part I find offensive,very offensive and make it known then and there.

I have run into at least one cd submissive,patrice,that is very much into serving and wearing a maid outfit just sets her more into that mood.

I agree those only interested in the dress up are not giving anything to the Domme,except maybe to watch them get a big smile when they have the opportunity to try it.For Myself  Pro and Life  its all about letting P/people be who they are.There is great joy for Me seeing someone find themself.






nikkicd10 -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 11:57:23 AM)

I'm a crossdresser, have been for about 15 years in public.  It has nothing to do with my BDSM lifestyle, nor something I seek from any Mistress I serve.  I will inform them that this is part of my life and if they so wish for me to serve in this manner I will.

There are many who crossdressing is nothing more than a fetish, if that is what works for them great.  Not me, for reason to long to list here it is much more than wearing "womens" clothes, it allows me a freedom one cannot express.

I have never intended in any way to have this show "affront to Femininity to so strongly equate being Female, with being submissive and subservient?" 
 
I think the oppisite is true.  I do my best to show strength not weakness, and with serving, I always follow my Mistress's desires. be it dressed as a woman or not
 



iammachine -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/1/2007 12:27:43 PM)

I think for many, it's not so much that feminity makes them feel submissive, it's the humiliation aspect of taking away their masculinity. There are some, for sure, that attribute feminine characteristics to subserviance, but surely, there are all kinds in the world of kink.

In regards to humiliaton, there's a certain percentage of CDs that are hyper-feminine to the point of being a caricature. I think this would make probably even some of the most feminine biological women blush and perhaps feel humbled as well. Is it an afront to feminity? Maybe if you're not entirely secure in your own. Play is play, there is no sweeping "right" or "wrong" provided the play is RACK.

As a top that rather enjoys playing dresseup, again, I'll have to say that the dynamic isn't necessarily one sided at all. It's all about individual dynamimcs and what works for you. If CD play isn't doing it for you, there's no reason you should have to. If it's an element that gives you a tingle, either on it's own or as one tool amongst many, more power to ya. Sweeping generalizations, well... generally don't work. ;) Certainly there are "do me do me" fetishists. You'll find these amongst CDs and not, you'll find them all over the spectrum, really. You will also find genuinely very submissive people amongst CDs as well. Again, there's a whole ton of gray area in the lifestyle community.



Lashra -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/2/2007 9:02:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaMistressa

I am a feminist, but I do not see crossdressing or feminization as an affront to feminism. I think the emphasis is on turning a person into someone they are not, vs. a "being womanly is humiliating" mindset. Of course, I also refused membership in NOW when they came out with their "bdsm is anti-women" stance, so that brand of feminism doesn't interest me very much. Getting paid equal wages to men, having family-friendly policies in the workplace, stopping human rights abuses - these interest me more.

As to the time/energy exchange between playing with someone with a crossdressing fetish -- if I spend an hour feminizing a submissive, you can be sure that they will spend well over that time pleasing me, be it foot massage, cleaning the kitchen or what have you. I think that women get the better clothes and accessories in life, so I tend to put them on some men as well, that's all.


This is exactly how I feel about it. I have spoken to my sub about his love of CD and its not the clothes that make him feel submissive or subservient, its the fabrics and the designs of the clothes themselves. If you look at a pair of mens tightie whites/boxer shorts and a pair of womens silk undies which gives you more pleasurable sensation against your skin? The womens silk undies for me, well its the same for him it makes him feel SEXY. He loves the colors, the lace and just the way its made feels better.

Many men wish that they had some of the freedom that we women do, that is dress to be attractive, being beautiful, being able to express feelings that they cannot due to the insane "macho code". When they CD yes they can be someone else for awhile and it makes them feel good. I don't mind that my sub is a CD, in fact I think it adds another sexy facet to our relationship.

~Lashra



Grlwithboy -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/2/2007 9:12:14 AM)

I've dealt with women who only felt OK submitting when identifying and dressing and being treated as a male.

I don't really feel insulted unless there are a whole other host of misogynyst things about that particular person. If it's limited to him feeling sexy and good in female clothes and better about himself and better about his submission, as it was for the "boi" referenced above, then it doesn't bother me.

I'm also a fetishist for a lot of the clothing involved in dressing a CD, heels, makeup, corsets, gloves - they feel as good to me, so putting them on someone doesn't feel like service to that person, it feels like something I enjoy.




cloudboy -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/2/2007 2:26:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaMistressa

I am a feminist, but I do not see crossdressing or feminization as an affront to feminism.


I agree, that's pretty much an isane POV.



MistressDolly -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/3/2007 3:22:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressMaamNH

Let Me preface this to say, this is NOT intended as a flame, or a bashing of those who enjoy cross dressing.  More of a sharing of personal experience and point of view.

I would have to say that about 95-98% of the males who approach Me to serve, are interested in cross-dressing in one form or another.  The vast majority of those that do want that, have also stated that dressing up as a woman brings out their submissive side.  Does anyone else feel, as a Dominant Woman (Female Supremacists in particular) that it is an affront to Femininity to so strongly equate being Female, with being submissive and subservient? 

Secondly, how many other Dominas feel as I do, that those who are interested in "serving" this way, don't really have an interest in actually serving, i.e. putting the Dominant's needs first and foremost, but are more interested in playing Barbie Doll dressup?  I am of the belief, that there should be at bare minimum, an equal exchange of energy between Dominant and submissive.  For those who are into the cross-dressing fetish, it seems that all the energy of the relationship flows to the 'submissive' and not the Dominant.

Again, I'm not looking for a flame war, or a bashing of any specific person.  Just interested in polite, articulate and intelligent discourse.

MMNH



I've met some men whose fetish for cross dressing was secondary to their desire to submit and serve, and conversely, I've met some CD'ers who were strictly bottoms.

I've never felt cross dressing to be an affront to Femininity.



tobeshi -> RE: CD'ers and submission (8/4/2007 6:25:28 PM)

I`d like to weigh-in on this as it is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I `d like to offer my thoughts on this and see what the concensus is. There have been acouple of points raised that I believe are right on target. I agree that most genuine girls cannot really understand the frustrations and motivations of a cd/tv/t?. Women, whether they are feminine or not are afforded so many different avenues to express themslves, their moods and emotions that are taboo for males. I`ve been trying to think of an article of clothing that a women could wear out that  would be as socially unacceptable as a male wearing feminine clothing.....there aren`t any.
A short while ago I was in a meeting and one of the female attendees arrived wearing a buisness suit (jacket, slacks, shirt and tie) that was almost identicle to mine. Nothing was thought of it. The following day she wore a very tasteful and cute career dress and heels. Other than being complimented nothing was said. I thought how nice it must be to be able to openly dress like that and wondered why I couldn`t do it. The answer quickly came to me that if I did dress like that, my next job would be looking for a job. It seemed unfair that females can, for the most part dress and present themselves however they want to without any concerns of ridicule or reprisals. Then reality set in...life isn`t fair. I thought what fun it would be to someday be able to dress, go out and to be taken and accepted as being feminine anytime you wanted to; without having to be female. I envy the freedom women have available in their lives should they choose to exploit it. Just once I would like to know what it is like.
For me dressing is a release. I don`t know that it transforms me into someone different than who I am but it does allow me to express another side of me. It doesn`t make me any more or less submissive and willing to serve than does the absence of a  femdom`s favorite piece of attire make her less of a dom when she`s not wearing it. At most it may encourage me to be an effeminate male ..... something that I am not when not dressed. When I am dressed I may look like a female but I am still a male only feminine.
The dressing experience is very stimulating, exciting and provocative. The more femine, the more exciting. All of my senses are heightened and become acutely aware of the fabrics, textures, smell and associated sensations. (why would anyone ever want to wear men`s clothes?) I am ready for anything that is asked of me. A woman guiding any male into this state can pretty much easily have her way with him and direct him do as she wishes. This isn`t unique to cd/tv/t?s.
One facet that I don`t understand is the humilation aspect of being dressed. I respect and adore women and would never want to insult them. How can a femdom say that a sub is being humilated by her creating him in her own image? Unless she has a very low opinion of herself and desires to have the same of him I don`t see how this can be accomplished. To me being dressed is empowerment. I am being allowed the opportunity to briefly experience her world by becoming more feminine (like her) and permitted to participate in it by being elevated closer to her excelence. To me dressing to humilate implys that unless dressed, the male is superior and when he is dressed he is brought down to the doms level. It doesn`t make sense.The teasing, the game playing and whatever else is decided for me to do while I am dressed is the torture ....and fun. Maybe the tasks given while dressed could be humilating but they probably  would be even if not dressed. 
The clothes or lack of them do not make me who I am. I prefer to think that will be done by my dom.



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