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RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/3/2007 2:31:25 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

LEAHY: I'm just asking you what role you have. I'm just asking you what you do. Let's not be too contemptuous of this committee. The American taxpayers pay your salary. You work for the American people. I'm just asking you what you DO.

JENNINGS: (leans over to consult with Mark Paoletta, his attorney) This falls under the terms of executive privilege, and respectfully I must decline to answer that question at this time.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 101

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/3/2007 3:25:58 PM

EPGAH

Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline

Also the Scientology cult sued the IRS for tax-exempt status. Whether they won or lost is irrelevant, they made life difficult enough for the IRS that they "secretly" settled! More importantly, the IRS now leaves them alone--which is a shame, the cult is/are (Not sure whether the singluar or plural applies) rich enough to fund any number of infrastructure projects that will otherwise have to be cut ruthlessly...Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, education...Little things like that!
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/timeline.html
http://www.scientology-lies.com/whats-wrong/irs.html?sort=desc&order=Date
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_3_64/ai_n6060928
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1101136522270
The latter actually shows a Jewish family seeking a tax-break for "private religious education"--but BASED on the Scientology cult's settlement!

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 102

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/4/2007 10:33:57 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

Lucky; lots of your fans would like to see the "law" that says you must pay unapportioned taxes on your wages of labor. you are going to let a lot of people down if you acquiesce now.

Subfever was kind enough t o ferret out the one case you wanted, (there are more btw), so show us all the law man otherwise people might start to think that we have been conned and the government really is nothing more than a bunch of lying fucking low down crooks out to fuck over and destroy this country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Real, anyone who rejects the USSC (as you do) is not a supporter of the Constitution.

Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government.
— James Madison

of course i support the USSC
(but i follow my brain)
{and history}
{and purpose}
{and the rule of law}

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 8/4/2007 10:35:04 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 103

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/4/2007 11:40:32 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

If you think that the USSC is "really is nothing more than a bunch of lying fucking low down crooks out to fuck over and destroy this country. " I do not think you support it.

I realise you consider your personal "purpose" to be of more importance than the law.

That is the opposite of the rule of law.

The lower court ruling Subfever cited is an example of one othe cases I already conceded. He got out of the "willfull" charge, and did not go to jail. But he still paid his taxes.....

Please cite a case where the taxes were ruled illegal, not where the person claimed confusion, to avoid the willfull charge....

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 104

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/4/2007 1:57:38 PM

BlueCollar

Posts: 74
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline

I'm not too familiar with the current US Tax Code, but isn't the ability to tax income made clear in the 16th amendment. I believe the common arguments by people who view the collection of Income Tax as illegal use the argument that some states have not yet ratified the amendment?

Does that make sense? To be completely honest, when I see and hear people go on about how they don't have to pay taxes the more I think they're just cheap and don't want to pay for the government services they receive. But if there is a valid and legal argument, I'd like to see it for myself.

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 105

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/4/2007 2:04:57 PM

Estring

Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

To me the manner in which we are taxed may be legal, but I consider it immoral. Basically the government is putting a gun to your head and saying give us a third of your income or go to jail. I am always amazed that more people are not offended by this system.
I do believe some taxes should be paid, but the tax system as it is now is way out of control.

_____________________________

Boycott Whales!

(in reply to BlueCollar)

Post #: 106

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/4/2007 2:15:44 PM

BlueCollar

Posts: 74
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

To me the manner in which we are taxed may be legal, but I consider it immoral. Basically the government is putting a gun to your head and saying give us a third of your income or go to jail. I am always amazed that more people are not offended by this system.
I do believe some taxes should be paid, but the tax system as it is now is way out of control.

Well, the argument I have in response is that if there was no enforcement of tax collection, NOBODY would pay them. :D

But I totally understand what you're saying. I'd say the biggest problem with the whole scenario is the political environment itself. Many western governments no longer seem all to bothered about making any real changes to how their citizens are administered. For being the most advanced nations on earth technological and socially, we sure like to maintain bloated and useless bureaucracies.

Even modern Western Conservatism seems to have dropped "small and efficient" governance from it's historical tenents.

(in reply to Estring)

Post #: 107

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/4/2007 3:16:32 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

If you think that the USSC is "really is nothing more than a bunch of lying fucking low down crooks out to fuck over and destroy this country. " I do not think you support it.

I realise you consider your personal "purpose" to be of more importance than the law.

That is the opposite of the rule of law.

The lower court ruling Subfever cited is an example of one othe cases I already conceded. He got out of the "willfull" charge, and did not go to jail. But he still paid his taxes.....

Please cite a case where the taxes were ruled illegal, not where the person claimed confusion, to avoid the willfull charge....

So how many more straw men you want to build for me lucky? Why does it always come down to this with you man? i cant seem to get it through my head debating anything with you is a complete waste of time.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 108

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/4/2007 3:18:42 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

To me the manner in which we are taxed may be legal, but I consider it immoral. Basically the government is putting a gun to your head and saying give us a third of your income or go to jail. I am always amazed that more people are not offended by this system.
I do believe some taxes should be paid, but the tax system as it is now is way out of control.

This is absolutely correct. This country was never intended to be completely free of taxation but where the forefathers screwed up is that they did not give us an effective means to gard the chicken house without taking up arms....literally.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Estring)

Post #: 109

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/4/2007 5:54:08 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

So you do not know what a strawman is Real, figures.....

Real all you had to do was cite a case where the income tax was ruled illegal. The fact is you can't.....

"This country was never intended to be completely free of taxation but where the forefathers screwed up is that they did not give us an effective means to gard the chicken house without taking up arms....literally."

They most certainly did, voting. The fact that the vast majority of people and the law strongly disagree with your view of the world doesn't matter. The system is supposed to ignore views like yours....

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 110

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/4/2007 6:49:33 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueCollar
Well, the argument I have in response is that if there was no enforcement of tax collection, NOBODY would pay them. :D

that is true "today" but it wasnt always that way

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to BlueCollar)

Post #: 111

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/4/2007 6:59:03 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

I'll address your post at a later date, as time does not currently allow. For now, here's a case that may interest you:

Eastern District of Tennessee #CR-1-93-91

U.S. v. Lloyd R. Long

Not-guilty verdict, October 15th, 1993.

That is a great case SF.

Direct from the tennessee supreme court.

The feds put a gag order on the case and tried to bury it! Neither did they try and callange it by appealing to the US supreme court, (they didnt have a case and they knew it and didnt not want to get public by losing a fed court case too LMAO).

Last they have "2 irs agents testimony" that they have a hidden code on longs records that he is not required to file (the point being that they knew all along!)

Chalk up one for the people

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 8/4/2007 7:05:56 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 112

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/5/2007 11:40:03 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

Yet another lie real. US v Llyod was a lower court Jury trial, not a tennesee supreme court ruling. He got out of the criminal charge of "willfull failure to file", several people have managed to get through that loophole. But he still ended up paying his taxes.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 113

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/5/2007 2:11:53 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Yet another lie real. US v Llyod was a lower court Jury trial, not a tennesee supreme court ruling. He got out of the criminal charge of "willfull failure to file", several people have managed to get through that loophole. But he still ended up paying his taxes.

Lucky.....

Do you realize that you are setting yourself up for legal action to be taken against you when you accuse people of lying like that?

Why you would stoop to defamation and slander is beyond me?

One of these days someone is going ot be having a bad day and you are going to accuse them of lying and find a cop serving a court order on you for it.

Slander is illegal its very easy to prove your false accusations since its all here in black and white.

Frankly i am shocked that the mods allow this sort of thing to go on since at best the only thing you are capable of actually proving is the possibility of an error as it is entirely impossible for you to prove your accusation that someone "lied" short of a judgement as a result of a "court" hearing.

So prove its a "lie".

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 114

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/5/2007 7:06:34 PM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

"Direct from the tennessee supreme court. "

No, if you read about the case it was a local jury trial, niot the Tennesee SC. the Tennesee Sc by the wy would only have standing to rule on a tennesee income tax, not the fedreal one.

The reason I am allowed to call lies lies, is that they are.

Please sue me real, this is one of the dumbest things you have said yet. So we can add to the list of things you are totally confused about...Slander and Liable laws.

Its not defamation or slander to call someone telling lies a liar.

Sue me...I double dog dare ya.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 115

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/5/2007 7:44:00 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

"Direct from the tennessee supreme court. "

No, if you read about the case it was a local jury trial, niot the Tennesee SC. the Tennesee Sc by the wy would only have standing to rule on a tennesee income tax, not the fedreal one.

The reason I am allowed to call lies lies, is that they are.

Please sue me real, this is one of the dumbest things you have said yet. So we can add to the list of things you are totally confused about...Slander and Liable laws.

Its not defamation or slander to call someone telling lies a liar.

Sue me...I double dog dare ya.

lucky...

First I never said I was going to sue you.
Second, i will concede to an error, but you really do not want to tempt me into suing you.
If you think your language is not by legal definition slander and defamation better think again.

anyway as I said: Prove that I lied, or still dont you get it?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 116

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/6/2007 9:20:04 AM

luckydog1

Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline

I quoted your lie (in this thread) already. I don't think I have ever seen you concede to an error, you made at least 7 on his thread alone, and have not conceded a single one. You know you are wrong yet continue to push untruths. Willfully telling untruths is lying. Pointing that out is not slander or liable or defamation. Go ahead and sue me....

Or better yet point out a single case where the courts ruled that the federal income tax is illegal or unconstitutional. That would end the argument right here and make me look foolish, but there are none....

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 117

RE: America: Freedom to Fascism - 8/7/2007 4:54:51 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

To me the manner in which we are taxed may be legal, but I consider it immoral. Basically the government is putting a gun to your head and saying give us a third of your income or go to jail. I am always amazed that more people are not offended by this system.
I do believe some taxes should be paid, but the tax system as it is now is way out of control.

Estring:
This is not a post in favor of the IRS...but you talk of them taking a third of your income. This is not my understanding of the tax code.
Is Bill Gates required to fork over a third of his income? Are you required to give up a third of your income?
I could be wrong but my understanding is that if the amount on line 33a (which if memory serves me is the amount of money you declare is taxable after all of your deductions) is in excess of $100,000 then the amount due is 28% of the amount above $100,000 and the tax on the amount below $100,000 is somewhat less.
thompson

(in reply to Estring)

Post #: 118

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